Was Jefferson or Lincoln first Republican??

[Iceweasel]

To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

wrong of course, political labels can change from decade to decade and thus we don't expect the reader to know what a label meant in say the 1870's. If we say today for example that Jefferson was an arch conservative we mean conservative by today's definition which would be the definition the reader is most like to know and deploy first. Since Jefferson was for small govt as are modern conservatives the meaning is made clear as simply as possible without the need for further complications.

Yep. And they didn't even use the terms in those days. So when one says liberal or conservative they are attempting to apply modern terminology to them. But it's always the libs claiming the founders were libs, go figure.

 

[Pogo]

First, Jefferson was a renaissance man. A "liberal" in the best sense of the word as were several other Founders.

issue is not whether he was renaissance man or liberal but rather whether he was first Republican given that he and Madison founded the Republican Party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stand for.

Again --- and you've been instructed on this for literally years to no avail --- the party Jefferson started (a) was a separate and distinct entity from what is today called the "Republican Party", which DID NOT EVEN EXIST until 1854, which is linear time and there's not a damn thing in the world you can do about that ---- (b) wasn't founded to "stand for freedom from liberal govt" at all since Liberal government is exactly what Jefferson and his contemporaries created here --- and (c) nothing in the definitions of "Liberal" or "conservative" governments have anything to do with "bigness" anyway.

So the only "issue" here is your inability to quit trolling the board with revisionist bullshit where dead men rise up from the grave to form a political party. No one buys that, no one ever did, and no one ever will.

 

[Pogo]

To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

wrong of course, political labels can change from decade to decade and thus we don't expect the reader to know what a label meant in say the 1870's. If we say today for example that Jefferson was an arch conservative we mean conservative by today's definition which would be the definition the reader is most like to know and deploy first. Since Jefferson was for small govt as are modern conservatives the meaning is made clear as simply as possible without the need for further complications.

Yep. And they didn't even use the terms in those days. So when one says liberal or conservative they are attempting to apply modern terminology to them. But it's always the libs claiming the founders were libs, go figure.

"The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights." ---- George Washington, 1790​

 

[Divine Wind]

Do you truly believe Thomas Jefferson would not be considered a fucking RINO by the standards of those who call themselves Republicans in 2017?

what??? Jefferson wanted very very tiny govt far smaller than those who call themselves Republicans today. A RHINO is a Republican not really for tiny govt at all. Now do you understand?????

Thanks for the condescension. No, Republicans today claim they want smaller government, but they also want FEDERAL LAW to ban abortion, gay marriage and other bullshit.

Do you think the States should decide abortion and marriage? Do you support that States should respect the laws of other states?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

No, Republicans today claim they want smaller government, but they also want FEDERAL LAW to ban abortion, gay marriage and other bullshit.

1) Republican cant always be conservative since they need to get elected and reelected which often requires the middle and even some from the left.

2) and even when they are conservative they often don't act that way when they need votes from the middle and the party opposite to get reelected.

3) when they hold one office they don't hold the entire govt so even if they are conservative and don't need the middle or party opposite they still may not produce conservative govt.

4) Republicans have proposed 30 Balanced Budget Amendments ( all killed by liberals), shut down the govt 16 times, tried not to raise debt ceiling, nominated Goldwater and Reagan, voted 32 times against Obamacare, voted against stimulus, most have signed Grovers pledge to never raise taxes, and are now about to repeal Obamacare and name conservative Court justices 10000% opposed by liberals. You have learned this lesson 67 tims. Must we go for 68???????
All this has been 100% opposed by liberals.

5) the job in Congress pays $175,000 so the second conservative libertarians can be elected they will appear. The Party is merely a reflection of who can be elected so it is never to be blamed,
the voters are to be blamed.



Way over your head - right??

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

wrong of course, political labels can change from decade to decade and thus we don't expect the reader to know what a label meant in say the 1870's. If we say today for example that Jefferson was an arch conservative we mean conservative by today's definition which would be the definition the reader is most like to know and deploy first. Since Jefferson was for small govt as are modern conservatives the meaning is made clear as simply as possible without the need for further complications.

Yep. And they didn't even use the terms in those days. So when one says liberal or conservative they are attempting to apply modern terminology to them. But it's always the libs claiming the founders were libs, go figure.

"The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights." ---- George Washington, 1790​

and the point is??

 

[Iceweasel]

"The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights." ---- George Washington, 1790​

Again, context helps. The didn't call themselves liberals or conservatives or use the words the way libs think. That was a letter to a Hebrew congregation and was trying to put their religious fears to rest.

"...May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants — while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.

May the father of all mercies scatter light, and not darkness, upon our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in His own due time and way everlastingly happy."

Not liberal policies, as in socialism and gay marriage.

 

[rightwinger]

Jefferson was the first Republican

Yes he and Madison in 1792!!! Thank you!!

And Wheezie

 

[Iceweasel]

Thanks for the condescension. No, Republicans today claim they want smaller government, but they also want FEDERAL LAW to ban abortion, gay marriage and other bullshit.

Some may but it's bullshit to make that claim. Most want those issues to go back to the states where they belong. How would that make the federal government bigger?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Again --- and you've been instructed on this for literally years to no avail --- the party Jefferson started (a) was a separate and distinct entity from what is today called the "Republican Party",

you mean separate and distinct except for name and philosophy- right????????

Notice the way you say "The party that Jefferson started" because you are not honest enough to say the Republican Party that Jefferson founded. What does that teach you?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Liberal government is exactly what Jefferson and his contemporaries created here -.

Welcome to your first lesson in American History:
Jefferson:
"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) the bread it has earned; this is the sum of good government."

 

[Divine Wind]

....Way over your head - right??

All you did was prove me correct on two points:
1) The Republican Party of today isn't one that I joined in 1974

2) Political Partisans are biased and extreme in their views.

 

[IsaacNewton]

The never ending propensity of conservatives to try to couch their own beliefs in all the saccharine goodness of the founding fathers. They were radical liberals of their day, many of the Deists who thought Christianity an enslavement to human beings. Lincoln was the first elected president of the Republican party, and after Eisenhower there haven't been any Republicans, only demagogues that view being president as tantamount to becoming king with unquestionable power. The Republican party died long ago, now it's just a mishmash of neocons, end-of-the-worlders, corporatists that think the middle class and poor can never be stepped on hard enough, and fake kristians who are pro-birth but once you are out of the whom they couldn't careless if you died in the street the next day because of hunger or you couldn't afford healthcare.

 

[Divine Wind]

Thanks for the condescension. No, Republicans today claim they want smaller government, but they also want FEDERAL LAW to ban abortion, gay marriage and other bullshit.

Some may but it's bullshit to make that claim. Most want those issues to go back to the states where they belong. How would that make the federal government bigger?

When they seek to use Federal law to ban abortion and gay marriage.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

1) The Republican Party of today isn't one that I joined in 1974
.

so??? I'm sure it changed a little every decade from 1790 forward but if you believe in the basic principle of America (freedom from liberal govt) then the Republican Party is the Party for you.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Political Partisans are biased and extreme in their views.

what??? a partisan is by definition biased and may or may not be extreme. By Jefferson's standards most modern Republicans are RINOS for sure as they have mostly accepted the nanny socialist state,

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The never ending propensity of conservatives to try to couch their own beliefs in all the saccharine goodness of the founding fathers..

yes the nerve of them wanting to read the Constitution for the original meaning the founders gave it!!!

liberals are the real Americans since the Constitution means to them anything they want it to mean and that, oddly, always means [ regardless of what the founders wrote] always closer to liberal communism!! What a affirmation of the saccharine goodness of the founding fathers!!! This smug Newton has the brains of a retard!!!

 

[Divine Wind]

.... The Republican party died long ago....

True, and sad. Also sad is the same applies to the Democratic party.

What do you think we should do now/

 

[Divine Wind]

Political Partisans are biased and extreme in their views.

what??? a partisan is by definition biased and may or may not be extreme. By Jefferson's standards most modern Republicans are RINOS for sure as they have mostly accepted the nanny socialist state,

By Jefferson's standards, most 21st Century Republicans are Tories.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

.... The Republican party died long ago....

True, and sad. Also sad is the same applies to the Democratic party.

What do you think we should do now/

wrong of course. Plato and Aristotle framed the issue as freedom versus govt, and Republicans and Democrats still offer that exact choice. 1+1=2. the voters are free to purify that choice as much as their intellect will allow!. Do you understand?