Was there a holocaust?

[bodecea]

There's an awful lot of evidence for it to be faked.

I'd like everyone to remember though;

It wasn't just jews

Oh...you're one of those.

 

[namvet]

Muslim Religious Leaders Condemn Holocaust Denial - The Jakarta Globe

It seems many Muslim leaders share my opinion of it as fact.

Do you agree?

does a shark shit in the sea????

 

[High_Gravity]

Muslim Religious Leaders Condemn Holocaust Denial - The Jakarta Globe

It seems many Muslim leaders share my opinion of it as fact.

Do you agree?

Really Fred?

Yes really.

We have to remember these terrible events so extremists of whatever sort can't succeed in repeating them.
Various groups want to deny the holocaust in order to forward their lousy agenda that would surely include a repeat of Hitler's evil.

I really don't give a shit what the group's political/religious flavour is; at the end of the day they always want to do a bit of the same to someone - be it Jews or whoever.

These nasty people are always out there and we must never allow them to get their rubbish over as if it were fact.

I misread your post Fred my bad.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I believe you, Fred. I believe you get it. My hope is that you become a prominent figure in leadership for Islam because unless you do? Your few abide alone and nothing changes. You need to use your voice to address the issue of anti - semitism within Islam and bring them into one accord that it won't be done in your name anymore.

If you are successful, and I pray you are, Terrorist Organizations such as Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, CAIR, Hezbollah & other anti - semitic arms that are claiming to represent Islam will cease to exist.

Hamas is not that old, you know. It was formed in the 1980's. On August 18,1988 it officially declared its objectives in a Preamble. Their preamble declares, "Israel wil exist and will continue to exist until Islam can obliterate it, just as it has obliterated others before it. Hamas does not recognize the right of Israel to exist as a nation or the Jews to exist as a race of people for that matter. They believe Islam requires them to hunt every last Jew down on the face of the earth. Call it holocaust part 2 because that is basically what they are claiming is the objective here.

So if you are successful, Fred, then groups such as these have no future in Islam. None whatsoever.

On the matter of practicality. I would suggest the Leaders of Islam worldwide gather for a summit on abbrogating the 109 murder verses out of the Koran and replacing them with their own preamble of peace, love and understanding instead. I know this can be done because there are 3 forms of abbrogation of verse in the Koran, to remove a verse completely or to replace it with a better verse or to add or take words from the verse if it would be agreeable that would be an improvement.

As these verses are the core of what is driving Muslims to commit acts of terrorism, violence against others the solution is to abbrogate those verses within Koran and begin a new day of reformation similar to what the Catholics did with their Roman Catholic Doctrine concerning the Jews and Christians they were murdering all over the place prior to the reformation. - Jeremiah

 

[Katzndogz]

Slightly different circumstances. Frankly, I am opposed to banning speech and ideas. But let's take that notion a step further. The US government installed the Shah of Iran in power and maintained that regime until a revolution tossed him out. Iraq was pretty much a creation of Britain. A good hunk of the Muslim world was a colony of western powers up through the middle of the last century. We armed the people in Afghanistan to fight the Russians and then just walked away afterwards, leaving a political vacuum. There is a lot of residual animosity from all of that. Do you also suggest we adopt sack-cloth and ashes for our hand in the current situation?

Fair enough.
There is an obvious difference - Germany is a sovereign country whereas Islam transcends borders.
My real point though is that the battle against the extremists needs to come from within the community of Islam - without their assistance the 'War Against Terror' by the West is never going to be "won".

I think that does happen. However, we have to remember that extremists do not just pop into existence. They are made. Mostly by trauma. If we drop a bomb on a village, we make extremists. When we invade someone's land to liberate them, we make extremists. So I would agree with you that this can't be a one sided thing, Muslims must be involved. However, to approach the problem with violence and to expect that to be a solution to violence is utterly lacking in logic.

There are people in this country who hate Obama with all of their being. They would rejoice if he died. They clamor for his removal. However, if Canada were to invade us for the purpose of removing Obama, do you think any of those folks would thank them? Whether American or Iraqi, Christian or Muslim, people are people. If you help someone build a home - you make a friend. If you blow up their home - you make an enemy. That is a simple fact we seem to keep forgetting.

Did it work that way in Japan or Germany?

You cannot help these enemies by building them homes. They see it as a sign of weakness and a signal that you are willing to be subjugated.

Do not count on all Americans opposing an invading force if they invaded for the purpose of removing obama. That is not something that would bring the nation together and such an invading nation would not be considered an enemy by all.

 

[idb]

Fair enough.
There is an obvious difference - Germany is a sovereign country whereas Islam transcends borders.
My real point though is that the battle against the extremists needs to come from within the community of Islam - without their assistance the 'War Against Terror' by the West is never going to be "won".

I think that does happen. However, we have to remember that extremists do not just pop into existence. They are made. Mostly by trauma. If we drop a bomb on a village, we make extremists. When we invade someone's land to liberate them, we make extremists. So I would agree with you that this can't be a one sided thing, Muslims must be involved. However, to approach the problem with violence and to expect that to be a solution to violence is utterly lacking in logic.

There are people in this country who hate Obama with all of their being. They would rejoice if he died. They clamor for his removal. However, if Canada were to invade us for the purpose of removing Obama, do you think any of those folks would thank them? Whether American or Iraqi, Christian or Muslim, people are people. If you help someone build a home - you make a friend. If you blow up their home - you make an enemy. That is a simple fact we seem to keep forgetting.

Did it work that way in Japan or Germany?

You cannot help these enemies by building them homes. They see it as a sign of weakness and a signal that you are willing to be subjugated.

Do not count on all Americans opposing an invading force if they invaded for the purpose of removing obama. That is not something that would bring the nation together and such an invading nation would not be considered an enemy by all.

If Canada does invade let's hope it's soon - before Obama has been 'round to everyone's homes and taken their guns away.

 

[bodecea]

Fair enough.
There is an obvious difference - Germany is a sovereign country whereas Islam transcends borders.
My real point though is that the battle against the extremists needs to come from within the community of Islam - without their assistance the 'War Against Terror' by the West is never going to be "won".

I think that does happen. However, we have to remember that extremists do not just pop into existence. They are made. Mostly by trauma. If we drop a bomb on a village, we make extremists. When we invade someone's land to liberate them, we make extremists. So I would agree with you that this can't be a one sided thing, Muslims must be involved. However, to approach the problem with violence and to expect that to be a solution to violence is utterly lacking in logic.

There are people in this country who hate Obama with all of their being. They would rejoice if he died. They clamor for his removal. However, if Canada were to invade us for the purpose of removing Obama, do you think any of those folks would thank them? Whether American or Iraqi, Christian or Muslim, people are people. If you help someone build a home - you make a friend. If you blow up their home - you make an enemy. That is a simple fact we seem to keep forgetting.

Did it work that way in Japan or Germany?

You cannot help these enemies by building them homes. They see it as a sign of weakness and a signal that you are willing to be subjugated.

Do not count on all Americans opposing an invading force if they invaded for the purpose of removing obama. That is not something that would bring the nation together and such an invading nation would not be considered an enemy by all.

Interesting....a 5th Column, eh?

 

[Circe]

Muslim Religious Leaders Condemn Holocaust Denial - The Jakarta Globe

It seems many Muslim leaders share my opinion of it as fact.

Do you agree?

History is not subject to OPINION, Indo.

There's been MANY holocausts.

Genocide is pretty common in history.

These mullahs have been misinformed.

Certainly history is opinion!!!

Unless you have a time machine, history can ONLY be opinion.

That is why there are so many different accounts of "what really happened."

Also, we wouldn't know what happened even if we had a time machine because so much is carefully hidden by the evil-doers and others in the present as it happens.

For instance, I'm reading about the Prussian retreat at Valmy Sept. 20, 1792, which Goethe said established the French Revolution as a success and ushered in a New World, which it probably did indeed. But why did the Prussians, who had been strolling thru France unimpeded toward Paris (as they always do) stop and retreat? There was no real battle.

French patriots say it was because the French forces got high on liberty, equality, and fraternity and routed those evil Prussians with no problem!

The Loomis history I'm reading says the Prussian commander, the Duke of Brunswick, who collected diamonds, was bribed to retreat by giving him the French crown's Blue Diamond of the Golden Fleece, 115 carats, largest in the world, which had been stolen three days before. Certainly this diamond was inventoried in the Duke's possessions, mysteriously, after his death 14 years later, which is suggestive......

So which is true? Depends on your opinion. We cannot know.

I think we should let a thousand flowers bloom, at least here in the USA.

They can't in Europe because they'd go straight back to fascism if the legal lid was lifted even a little on Holocaust Denial and Hitler memorabilia worship, and everybody knows it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Fair enough.
There is an obvious difference - Germany is a sovereign country whereas Islam transcends borders.
My real point though is that the battle against the extremists needs to come from within the community of Islam - without their assistance the 'War Against Terror' by the West is never going to be "won".

I think that does happen. However, we have to remember that extremists do not just pop into existence. They are made. Mostly by trauma. If we drop a bomb on a village, we make extremists. When we invade someone's land to liberate them, we make extremists. So I would agree with you that this can't be a one sided thing, Muslims must be involved. However, to approach the problem with violence and to expect that to be a solution to violence is utterly lacking in logic.

There are people in this country who hate Obama with all of their being. They would rejoice if he died. They clamor for his removal. However, if Canada were to invade us for the purpose of removing Obama, do you think any of those folks would thank them? Whether American or Iraqi, Christian or Muslim, people are people. If you help someone build a home - you make a friend. If you blow up their home - you make an enemy. That is a simple fact we seem to keep forgetting.

Did it work that way in Japan or Germany?

You cannot help these enemies by building them homes. They see it as a sign of weakness and a signal that you are willing to be subjugated.

Do not count on all Americans opposing an invading force if they invaded for the purpose of removing obama. That is not something that would bring the nation together and such an invading nation would not be considered an enemy by all.

Not even within the realm of reasonable imagination.

 

[idb]

Muslim Religious Leaders Condemn Holocaust Denial - The Jakarta Globe

It seems many Muslim leaders share my opinion of it as fact.

Do you agree?

History is not subject to OPINION, Indo.

There's been MANY holocausts.

Genocide is pretty common in history.

These mullahs have been misinformed.

Certainly history is opinion!!!

Unless you have a time machine, history can ONLY be opinion.

That is why there are so many different accounts of "what really happened."

Also, we wouldn't know what happened even if we had a time machine because so much is carefully hidden by the evil-doers and others in the present as it happens.

For instance, I'm reading about the Prussian retreat at Valmy Sept. 20, 1792, which Goethe said established the French Revolution as a success and ushered in a New World, which it probably did indeed. But why did the Prussians, who had been strolling thru France unimpeded toward Paris (as they always do) stop and retreat? There was no real battle.

French patriots say it was because the French forces got high on liberty, equality, and fraternity and routed those evil Prussians with no problem!

The Loomis history I'm reading says the Prussian commander, the Duke of Brunswick, who collected diamonds, was bribed to retreat by giving him the French crown's Blue Diamond of the Golden Fleece, 115 carats, largest in the world, which had been stolen three days before. Certainly this diamond was inventoried in the Duke's possessions, mysteriously, after his death 14 years later, which is suggestive......

So which is true? Depends on your opinion. We cannot know.

I think we should let a thousand flowers bloom, at least here in the USA.

They can't in Europe because they'd go straight back to fascism if the legal lid was lifted even a little on Holocaust Denial and Hitler memorabilia worship, and everybody knows it.

I'm not sure but wasn't it Napoleon that said that 'history is written by the victor' or something similar?

 

[Circe]

I'm not sure but wasn't it Napoleon that said that 'history is written by the victor' or something similar?

Yes, that's a favorite saying --- Napoleon actually said that history is the version of what happened that we have all decided to agree on.

However, that agreement doesn't last and pretty soon the revisionist historians start eating away at the consensus, mostly so they can make a literary splash and make money and get tenure, IMO. Or beat some private drum, like feminism or homosexuality or some such.

There is no use fussing that the Muslims don't believe in the Holocaust: they even believe George Bush or the Mossad caused the Towers to fall!! With explosives.

There is no accounting for just crazy belief systems, nor do we have to. Europeans would go back to fascism very quickly if the laws let them speak freely. They can't afford free speech, they feel, and one can see their point after two devastating world wars started there.

Even in America people are finally getting sick of this continual focus on the Holocaust by Jews, pity us, pity us, poor us --- Enough! They're dead! They would be anyway, most of them! Next time, try fighting back!

But it's quite obvious it happened, I don't think there is any real room for doubt about that. See the movie starring Kenneth Branaugh, "Conspiracy," with many great stars, about the conference at Wannsee on the Final Solution. Absolutely dynamite, and documented. They found the minutes typed up, I mean, there it is.

 

[PratchettFan]

Fair enough.
There is an obvious difference - Germany is a sovereign country whereas Islam transcends borders.
My real point though is that the battle against the extremists needs to come from within the community of Islam - without their assistance the 'War Against Terror' by the West is never going to be "won".

I think that does happen. However, we have to remember that extremists do not just pop into existence. They are made. Mostly by trauma. If we drop a bomb on a village, we make extremists. When we invade someone's land to liberate them, we make extremists. So I would agree with you that this can't be a one sided thing, Muslims must be involved. However, to approach the problem with violence and to expect that to be a solution to violence is utterly lacking in logic.

There are people in this country who hate Obama with all of their being. They would rejoice if he died. They clamor for his removal. However, if Canada were to invade us for the purpose of removing Obama, do you think any of those folks would thank them? Whether American or Iraqi, Christian or Muslim, people are people. If you help someone build a home - you make a friend. If you blow up their home - you make an enemy. That is a simple fact we seem to keep forgetting.

Did it work that way in Japan or Germany?

You cannot help these enemies by building them homes. They see it as a sign of weakness and a signal that you are willing to be subjugated.

Do not count on all Americans opposing an invading force if they invaded for the purpose of removing obama. That is not something that would bring the nation together and such an invading nation would not be considered an enemy by all.

Bullshit.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

There's an awful lot of evidence for it to be faked.

I'd like everyone to remember though;

It wasn't just jews

Well don't just stand there -

POST IT.

 

[PratchettFan]

There's an awful lot of evidence for it to be faked.

I'd like everyone to remember though;

It wasn't just jews

Well don't just stand there -

POST IT.

I think this post has been consistently misread. Perhaps I am wrong, but the way I read it the poster was saying that there is a lot of evidence that the holocaust did happen. So much evidence that it is unlikely it was faked. It could have been written more clearly, but I don't think he/she was saying the holocaust was faked.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Muslim Religious Leaders Condemn Holocaust Denial - The Jakarta Globe

It seems many Muslim leaders share my opinion of it as fact.

Do you agree?

June 4th, 1939
The SS St. Louis, a ship carrying 963 Jewish refugees, is denied permission to land in Florida, United States, after already having been turned away from Cuba. Forced to return to Europe, most of its passengers later died in Nazi concentration

 

[MikeK]

Not only did it happen, it could happen again.

That's why denial is so dangerous.
The numbers killed are in debate but was clearly in the millions and this simple fact should be a massive reason to remember and make bloody sure it never happens again.

[...]

Why would it happen again?

Why did it happen in the '30s?

 

[Caroljo]

There's an awful lot of evidence for it to be faked.

I'd like everyone to remember though;

It wasn't just jews

No it wasn't...they were the majority tho. There were also the Poles, Czchec's, etc...

 

[Jackson]

I believe you, Fred. I believe you get it. My hope is that you become a prominent figure in leadership for Islam because unless you do? Your few abide alone and nothing changes. You need to use your voice to address the issue of anti - semitism within Islam and bring them into one accord that it won't be done in your name anymore.

If you are successful, and I pray you are, Terrorist Organizations such as Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, CAIR, Hezbollah & other anti - semitic arms that are claiming to represent Islam will cease to exist.

Hamas is not that old, you know. It was formed in the 1980's. On August 18,1988 it officially declared its objectives in a Preamble. Their preamble declares, "Israel wil exist and will continue to exist until Islam can obliterate it, just as it has obliterated others before it. Hamas does not recognize the right of Israel to exist as a nation or the Jews to exist as a race of people for that matter. They believe Islam requires them to hunt every last Jew down on the face of the earth. Call it holocaust part 2 because that is basically what they are claiming is the objective here.

So if you are successful, Fred, then groups such as these have no future in Islam. None whatsoever.

On the matter of practicality. I would suggest the Leaders of Islam worldwide gather for a summit on abbrogating the 109 murder verses out of the Koran and replacing them with their own preamble of peace, love and understanding instead. I know this can be done because there are 3 forms of abbrogation of verse in the Koran, to remove a verse completely or to replace it with a better verse or to add or take words from the verse if it would be agreeable that would be an improvement.

As these verses are the core of what is driving Muslims to commit acts of terrorism, violence against others the solution is to abbrogate those verses within Koran and begin a new day of reformation similar to what the Catholics did with their Roman Catholic Doctrine concerning the Jews and Christians they were murdering all over the place prior to the reformation. - Jeremiah

I would call this a post of "Hope."

 

[Luddly Neddite]

There's an awful lot of evidence for it to be faked.

I'd like everyone to remember though;

It wasn't just jews

No it wasn't...they were the majority tho. There were also the Poles, Czchec's, etc...

gays, gypsys ...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Not only did it happen, it could happen again.

That's why denial is so dangerous.
The numbers killed are in debate but was clearly in the millions and this simple fact should be a massive reason to remember and make bloody sure it never happens again.

[...]

Why would it happen again?

Why did it happen in the '30s?

When people are having a hard time, it can be very easy to blame this or that group of people. Hitler took advantage of that weakness.

Just as the right is doing now. Brown in the Jew of this age. People are being told that Mexicans and Muslims are our enemy and some are weak mended enough to believe it without question.