Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

[Dissident]

The Russian Army is nearly shattered.
...
And the Ukrainian army is winning.

It has no sense to explain us in this thread who is winning or who is not.

We all have access to state news agency of Ukraine (the first link below), we all have access to state news agency of Russia (the second link below), we all have access to state news agency of U.S. (the third link below) and so on.

If one wants to know somebody’s variant of news, he/she can do it at any moment.

But this thread is not about discussing somebody’s variants of news.

Ukrinform - Ukrainian National News Agency

Ukraine and world news. Ukrinform brings the latest news, daily news, political news, business news, social news, cultural news, sports news, international news тАУ 24/7 live in Ukrainian, Russian, English, German and Spanish.

www.ukrinform.net

RT - Breaking News, Russia News, World News and Video

RT is the first Russian 24/7 English-language news channel which brings the Russian view on global news.

www.rt.com

VOA - Voice of America English News

English news from the Voice of America. VOA provides complete coverage of the U.S, Asia, Africa and the Mideast.

www.voanews.com

 

[Oldestyle]

I understand point of view of my opponents.

Their picture of situation is based on 2 components which are constantly repeated by Western media (please see below).

Item 1​

Western media many times have been telling to my opponents that Russia “has illegitimately annexed the Crimean Peninsula”.​

​

Item 2​

Western media many times have been telling to my opponents that it does not matter that ethic Russians are majority in Crimea.​

On the basis of these two points, my opponents conclude that the plans of present Ukrainian government to take back Crimea by military force are fair.

But I ask my opponents to add to their picture of situation a third element which Western media NEVER told to my opponents (please see below).

​

Item 3​

Under present Ukrainian legislation ethnic Russians are discriminated in Ukraine, i.e. they are third-grade citizens there – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians.​

On the basis of this wider look on the situation – Can my opponents say that the plans of present Ukrainian government to take back Crimea by military force AND to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people are fair?

In my opinion, such plans are not fair. Therefore, Russian military operation for preventing Ukrainian military measures could be justified.

And my goal is that my opponents would include the above-mentioned third element into their picture of situation.

You continue to try a make the case that Russia was justified in invading and seizing Crimea from Ukraine because ethnic Russians were being "mistreated" there and to be quite blunt with you...that was always a flimsy excuse used by Putin to simply steal land that he wanted for Russia! It's exactly the excuse that Hitler used when he started "annexing" territories prior to the start of WWII!
Then you have to look at what Putin has done in Ukraine since the start of his invasion there! Deliberately targeting a civilian population with missile strikes and artillery strikes? Hitting schools...hospitals...apartment buildings? Now targeting electrical centers as winter is about to begin leaving the civilian population in danger of freezing to death? All of these things are war crimes yet you come here and try to make the case that Putin is somehow justified to do what he's done because Russian wasn't being taught in Ukranian schools? That's a crock. You defend the indefensible!

 

[JoeB131]

It has no sense to explain us in this thread who is winning or who is not.

We all have access to state news agency of Ukraine (the first link below), we all have access to state news agency of Russia (the second link below), we all have access to state news agency of U.S. (the third link below) and so on.

If one wants to know somebody’s variant of news, he/she can do it at any moment.

But this thread is not about discussing somebody’s variants of news.

It makes no sense... clearly your translation matrix isn't working, Ivan.

No, this thread is screaming, "The poor ethnic Russians" after Russia is getting its ass whooped in a war they started.

I have a simple enough solution.

Russia's square mileage is 6 million square miles..

That's more than enough space to accommodate any ethnic Russians in the Ukraine who really, really don't want to be part of the Ukraine.

 

[Dissident]

Russia's annexation of the Crimea WAS illegitimate. It really doesn't matter that the majority of people in the Donbass or Crimea are Ethnically Russian...

Has it any sense to repeat again and again item 1 and item 2 from my previous post?

I have cited these items in that post and written that these items have been constantly repeated by Western media.

We all know these items.

 

[Dissident]

Deliberately targeting a civilian population with missile strikes and artillery strikes? Hitting schools...hospitals...apartment buildings? Now targeting electrical centers as winter is about to begin leaving the civilian population in danger of freezing to death? All of these things are war crimes...

I repeat once again - this thread is not for discussing somebody’s variants of news.

This thread is about things, which, in my opinion, are more important – about Ukrainian laws (see the first sentence in the first post of the thread) and about Ukrainian plans to use military force to get back Crimea (see the third sentence in the first post of the thread).

In my opinion, the laws which are published on the official web-site of the parliament or plans which are published on the official web-site of the President are more worth discussing than somebody’s variants of news.

 

[Dissident]

Let’s formulate the exact difference between my opinion and opinion of (pro)-Ukrainian users, e.g. JoeB131, Oldestyle and SavannahMann.

In their opinion, it’s fair and correct when a country wants to get back a region by military force and to turn the majority of population of this region into third-grade people.

In my opinion, it isn’t fair and correct.

And I am very glad that there are only very few users on this forum who believes that it’s fair and correct.

 

[JoeB131]

Let’s formulate the exact difference between my opinion and opinion of (pro)-Ukrainian users, e.g. JoeB131, Oldestyle and SavannahMann.

In their opinion, it’s fair and correct when a country wants to get back a region by military force and to turn the majority of population of this region into third-grade people.

In my opinion, it isn’t fair and correct.

And I am very glad that there are only very few users on this forum who believes that it’s fair and correct.

Actually, what I am seeing is posters on both the right and left really have no sympathy for Russians in the Ukraine.

The reality is, when you collaborate with a foreign invader, you are going to be in serious trouble....

 

[Oldestyle]

I repeat once again - this thread is not for discussing somebody’s variants of news.

This thread is about things, which, in my opinion, are more important – about Ukrainian laws (see the first sentence in the first post of the thread) and about Ukrainian plans to use military force to get back Crimea (see the third sentence in the first post of the thread).

In my opinion, the laws which are published on the official web-site of the parliament or plans which are published on the official web-site of the President are more worth discussing than somebody’s variants of news.

You keep ignoring the fact that Russia illegally invaded a sovereign nation...seizing a valuable piece of land, Dissident! Of course Ukraine wanted Crimea back! It's part of Ukraine! Again...what right does Russia have to simply take what it wants from weaker neighbors? Putin took Crimea. Then he was back trying to steal the Donbas area and if he could the entire nation of Ukraine. The only reason he hasn't done so is that the Russian army turned out to not be as fearsome as advertised. Putin thought he could wrap up his invasion in a matter of weeks and that Europe would simply accept it as a done deal because they needed his natural gas so badly. Then Ukraine surprised everyone by not caving. They fought back and they fought back hard. Now the Russian army is in retreat and Putin has egg on his face.

 

[there4eyeM]

Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).

But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).

On the official web-site of the Ukrainian President you can read that Ukraine was preparing a package of measures – including military ones – for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” (see here).

Please translate in Google Translator the following phrase


Cannot we conclude that Ukrainian preparation of military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” could provoke the start of the Russian military operation in Ukraine?

No.

 

[JoeB131]

And if you look at historical precedent, it won't go well for the Russians in those enclaves.

After WWII, Ethnic Germans were purged from the Sudetenland, Silesia and East Prussia.

 

[Dissident]

No.

Yes

 

[Dissident]

You keep ignoring the fact that Russia illegally invaded a sovereign nation...seizing a valuable piece of land, Dissident! Of course Ukraine wanted Crimea back! It's part of Ukraine! Again...what right does Russia have to simply take what it wants from weaker neighbors? Putin took Crimea.

The situation in this thread becomes more and more stupid -
(pro)-Ukrainian users again and again inform me about the Western media thesis about which I have already written myself in my post (see item 1).

 

[SavannahMann]

I understand point of view of my opponents.

Their picture of situation is based on 2 components which are constantly repeated by Western media (please see below).

Item 1​

Western media many times have been telling to my opponents that Russia “has illegitimately annexed the Crimean Peninsula”.​

​

Item 2​

Western media many times have been telling to my opponents that it does not matter that ethnic Russians are majority in Crimea.​

On the basis of these two points, my opponents conclude that the plans of present Ukrainian government to take back Crimea by military force are fair.

But I ask my opponents to add to their picture of situation a third element which Western media NEVER told to my opponents (please see below).

​

Item 3​

Under present Ukrainian legislation ethnic Russians are discriminated in Ukraine, i.e. they are third-grade citizens there – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians.​

On the basis of this wider look on the situation – Can my opponents say that the plans of present Ukrainian government to take back Crimea by military force AND to turn the majority of Crimean population into third-grade people are fair?

In my opinion, such plans are not fair. Therefore, Russian military operation for preventing Ukrainian military measures could be justified.

And my goal is that my opponents would include the above-mentioned third element into their picture of situation.

This is the 21st. Century. Every road rage incident had a dozen cameras recording it. Robberies have camera recordings. Most murders do now days.

You keep arguing that the invasion was justified by the treatment of the ethnic Russians. But you don’t have any evidence of mistreatment. Oh you have more lies from the Russians. But nothing else.

I have proof of mistreatment of ethnic Russians.



I have a lot more proof.

Updated list of oligarchs and Putin critics found dead since war began

A growing number of high-profile Russians have died under strange circumstances ever since President Vladimir Putin came to power.

www.euronews.com

Want more proof of Ethnic Russians being mistreated?

More than 15,000 Russians have been arrested in anti-war protests

Despite Vladimir Putin’s crackdown, people continue to take to the streets

www.economist.com

I could post more. But you would lie and deflect. So I’ll stop offering proof.

Finally I offer this song for you and the rest of the Russians.



Any questions.

 

[Dissident]

... you don’t have any evidence of mistreatment (of ethnic Russians in Ukraine).

There is a link in the first sentence of the first post of this thread.
We have already discussed discrimination of ethnic Russians in Ukraine in the thread under that link.

 

[SavannahMann]

There is a link in the first sentence of the first post of this thread.
We have already discussed discrimination of ethnic Russians in Ukraine in the thread under that link.

A link to a Russian propaganda site.

Ukraine's Russian speakers worry about being 'saved' by Putin

Kyiv driving instructor Andriy Atamanyuk does not want to be saved by Vladimir Putin despite the Kremlin chief's pledge to fight "discrimination" against Russian speakers in Ukraine.

amp.france24.com

It wasn’t happening. It just wasn’t. You continue to spread propaganda Zampolit.

Tovarich you need to learn that the truth is already known.

 

[georgephillip]

Cannot we conclude that Ukrainian preparation of military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” could provoke the start of the Russian military operation in Ukraine?

In the days immediately preceding the Russian advance into Ukraine, there was an increase in shelling coming from Zelensky's forces. It seems likely he was told to provoke a Russian response and when that came US sanctions would cripple the Russian economy withing weeks. Now it's beginning to look like NATO will fragment long before Russia does.

 

[Dissident]

You continue to spread propaganda...

...you need to learn that the truth is already known.

I continue to speak about Ukrainian laws which everyone can read on the official website of the Ukrainian parliament, e.g. here.
These Ukrainian laws are the best form of anti-Ukrainian propaganda.

 

[para bellum]

In the days immediately preceding the Russian advance into Ukraine, there was an increase in shelling coming from Zelensky's forces. It seems likely he was told to provoke a Russian response and when that came US sanctions would cripple the Russian economy withing weeks. Now it's beginning to look like NATO will fragment long before Russia does.

False flags, typical of Putin. The west had been warning for several days in advance that it was coming. Blinken warned the UNSC the preceding Wednesday. The DPR mobilized 5 days before the invasion, and they put out a video calling for evacuations that was made 2 days before the supposed shelling happened. There was also a mysterious car bombing in Donetsk or Luhansk (I forget which), and claims of Ukrainian shelling in a Russian village (Mityakinskaya) in the Rostov area.

Harris gave an address at the Munich Security Conference that week. "There is a playbook of Russian aggression, and this playbook is too familiar to us all. Russia will plead ignorance and innocence. It will create false pretext for invasion, and it will amass troops and firepower in plain sight,"

Lavrov called the warnings "hysteria" and "alarmism". Of course a few days later, Russian invaded just as predicted...

 

[Dissident]

georgephillip

The answer of para bellum to your post is a quite standard one because it is impossible to prove who was shelling whom.

Even in the cases when there are international monitoring missions, a side A always accuses this mission of being bribed by a side B. And the side B, vice versa, always accuses this mission of being bribed by the side A.

Therefore, I personally prefer to speak about laws etc. rather than about “who was shelling whom".

 

[zaangalewa]

Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?​

No. And it is also now not a threat for Russia - but life became more dangerous for all Russians soldiers who are illegally on the territory of the Ukraine - including the territories Russia had annexed illegally.

On the others side has the Ukraine now - because Russia declared war on her - the right to attack many institutions all over Russia - specially all military institutions including Putins government and machinery of power. So if the Ukraine should have to become a threat for Russia on reason of self-defense then this is caused so from Valdimir Putin and his criminal gang members who violate the Russian soul.