Wealth inequality-how it affects the economy

[Barb]

You clearly haven't learned anything.
I challenged you to explain how a lower dollar would encourage businesses to outsource, since that would make their products more expensive.
You utterly failed to address the point, throwing in some meaningless drivel from someone I've never heard of.
Hint, merely slinging words that have some vague relevance to the topic is not argument. It will not persuade anyone of anything other than that you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about.
So get your hands out of your pants,sister, and open a real book on economics and come back and defend whatever drivel you are dishing out.

And actually the second par tof your quotation says the opposite of what you maintained in your post. Do you even know what you are arguing for anymore?

I bolded the part that disputed part of my point, but that bloded part also pointed out that is was artificially (and wildly) inflated, not the true value.
As far as you never hearing of the authors, maybe you should open a book.
You cry about substantive sources, but when addressed with two scholars CURRENTLY taught in college coursework, two who concur that it was the economic policies of the Reagan administration that caused the outsourcing of jobs (rather than your stated and predictable premise), you're clueless.
Whoda thunk it?

 

[The Rabbi]

You clearly haven't learned anything.
I challenged you to explain how a lower dollar would encourage businesses to outsource, since that would make their products more expensive.
You utterly failed to address the point, throwing in some meaningless drivel from someone I've never heard of.
Hint, merely slinging words that have some vague relevance to the topic is not argument. It will not persuade anyone of anything other than that you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about.
So get your hands out of your pants,sister, and open a real book on economics and come back and defend whatever drivel you are dishing out.

And actually the second par tof your quotation says the opposite of what you maintained in your post. Do you even know what you are arguing for anymore?

I bolded the part that disputed part of my point, but that bloded part also pointed out that is was artificially (and wildly) inflated, not the true value.
As far as you never hearing of the authors, maybe you should open a book.
You cry about substantive sources, but when addressed with two scholars CURRENTLY taught in college coursework, two who concur that it was the economic policies of the Reagan administration that caused the outsourcing of jobs (rather than your stated and predictable premise), you're clueless.
Whoda thunk it?

I'm clueless, eh?
Hmm. Let's see: Post by Barb.

His borrowing, the trade imbalance, and the devaluation of the dollar is what led to (once) US corporations off-shoring manufacturing in the search for ever lower wage platforms to compete.

Quoted in post by Barb:

What that did, in turn, was to generate a flow of foreign money into America, which then caused the value of the dollar to rise dramatically, out of ll proportion to its true worth [emphasis mine]. As the dollar skyrocketed, imports became cheaper, forcing many American industries either to relocate to third world countries or go out of business-

OK. So did the devaluation of the dollar under Bush or the rise in the value of the dollar under Reagan cause outsourcing of U.S. production? Which is it? You can't have it both ways, now.

 

[MaggieMae]

Not two million. Twenty million.

And if you understood the damage that unconstrained accumulation of assets has done and is doing to this country you wouldn't be accusing those of us who do understand it of being envious. And the idiocy belongs to those who think there is nothing wrong with some Americans accumulating multi-billion dollar fortunes while millions of others are slowly being reduced to poverty.

Of course I envy anyone who has managed to acquire twenty million dollars worth of assets and I wish I could do it. But beyond that level wealth becomes the kind of power which has corrupted our political system and is transforming our democracy into a monarchy. I do not envy that kind of power. I fear it -- as do all good Americans.


"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime." (Honore de Balzac)

There is no damage. the only damage is to the egos of those who can't or won't work as hard as those who do.

Baloney. Most of the richest people in this nation inherited their wealthy, they sure as heck didn't "work" for it. And many of those who have worked, started out at the top, not the bottom. You show me one rich person today who started out in the fields picking berries. Who worked as a maid or janitor. Just one. Then tell me again how the wealthy are working and the rest of us are just lazy.

Actually, there are some. Probably the most famous is Warren Buffett who started out as a paperboy and at a very young age discovered how he could increase his own meager earnings just by knocking on doors of people who didn't subscribe. By the way, the billionnaire still lives in the modest house he bought for his wife many many years ago. Buffett is hardly a "class" example, however, because he has never gotten swept up in the type of glad-handing manipulation most successful entrepreneurs cum millionnaires cum billionnaires have. Warren Buffett remains a very humble man, and his business practices reflect that.

 

[The Rabbi]

Buffett's father was a congressman from Nebraska, so he was hardly a pauper. But yes thrift plays a big part in his whole philosophy.

 

[MaggieMae]

Well, I'm also too lazy to google for ya

I do know a plumber, in north FL, that raked in 3mil last year though.

Yup. Plumbing is just one of those jobs that can't seem to be computerized and the type of job that can't be outsourced any further than an out house.

Now that I think of it, why was Joe The Plumber out of work? I can't recall.

 

[The Rabbi]

Well, I'm also too lazy to google for ya

I do know a plumber, in north FL, that raked in 3mil last year though.

Yup. Plumbing is just one of those jobs that can't seem to be computerized and the type of job that can't be outsourced any further than an out house.

Now that I think of it, why was Joe The Plumber out of work? I can't recall.

He wasn't is why you can't recall it. In fact he was contemplating buying a business but hesitated given the anti business environment he thought Obama would bring.
And guess what? He was right.

 

[MaggieMae]

I have lived on that, before.
Everybody has to start somewhere.
Everybody *does*.
"Most" are not given their fortune.

G'night, ma'am

Yeah, so have I, but apartments weren't $700 a month, gas wasn't almost $4.00 a gal and heat wasn't $600 during the coldest month of the year.

In 1995, one of the worst years of my life, I had to take a job as a hotel housekeeper (Hilton Hotels, Inc.) starting at minimum wage which was $5.50 then. I worked 8 hours a day, six days a week, as fast as I could to clean a minimum of 18 rooms every day, sometimes more if someone called in sick , and had a half-hour break. I almost broke my back from bending over making 36 beds per day, and could barely walk when I got home. My rent was $480 PLUS utilities and heat for a modest one-bedroom apartment. Needless to say, I got out of that situation at the earliest opportunity and took a night job that didn't pay much more but at least it wasn't breaking my body (and my spirit). But a lot of women who do those jobs don't have the education nor experience I had at the time to move on to better jobs, so they are stuck doing near slave labor (in my opinion) just so the Hilton family can maintain its lavish lifestyle. There's no reason why a hotel chain of that significance needs to pay their help so little. The turnover, by the way, was astronomical, as the women were always on the lookout for housekeeping jobs at small privately owned motels for the same money and to be treated a hell of a lot better.

 

[MaggieMae]

If we only taxed for the military and infrastructure, and made taxation voluntary we wouldn't have unemployment or poverty, but a 0 to 1% tax rate is evil of course because people can't live on their own land for free, the government deserves to take all our money. Also a strong economy from low taxes would create more jobs, another no no. Never mind that we could all donate to non for profit organizations to help the poor instead of funding government welfare schemes. That would break all the rules. Will leave people to continue blaming the rich and successful for everything.

Why didn't that happen, then, when Bush cut taxes? What do you think this whole debate is about?

I don't see that happening either. It would take a lot more than just dropping a C-note into the collection plate once a month.

You remain ideologically driven and are not facing reality.

 

[MaggieMae]

Obama will fix it all.
In his second term he will gut the military

A joke I hope? He's already increased the military both in size, the wage scale, and above all benefits. Why would he renege on that?

And just in case someone sees an opener to use the old disproven allegation that Clinton "gutted the military," he didn't either. All Clinton did was bring it back to the level it was before Reagan increased it, and once Reagan had brought about the end of the cold war, a huge ground force was not necessary.

 

[MaggieMae]

Sounds all warm and fuzzy, on the surface, but these are still small American businesses trying to maximize their profits.
It would wind up punishing Mom and Pop more than helping them.

Horse shit.
These are multinational corporations with no stake in any community, no loyalty to any nation, and no concern beyond maximizing the bottom line.

That's a problem how?
Most of the wealthy in this country are in fact small business owners. Sorry to interrupt your class envy orgy.

Surely you jest. If the small business owners are so wealthy, then why the hell won't they start hiring? Instead we hear the daily whine that they're too "scared" of what's gonna happen. As Barb said, HORSESHIT.

 

[The Rabbi]

Horse shit.
These are multinational corporations with no stake in any community, no loyalty to any nation, and no concern beyond maximizing the bottom line.

That's a problem how?
Most of the wealthy in this country are in fact small business owners. Sorry to interrupt your class envy orgy.

Surely you jest. If the small business owners are so wealthy, then why the hell won't they start hiring? Instead we hear the daily whine that they're too "scared" of what's gonna happen. As Barb said, HORSESHIT.

Does being wealthy have anything to do with hiring? Isn't hiring a business decision based on projected return on the employee's labor?
Or do you think hiring someone is an act of charity that the wealthy ought to do just because there are people who need a job and they have plenty of money? This is what the Obama Administration apparently believes.

And Barb is clearly full of shit herself as I posted her contradictory comments and asked her to pick one. She hasn't been back.

 

[Againsheila]

very true....if we went total internal economy.....would you be in favour of interstate tarrifs to level the labour plaing field between say new york and the mid west.....

How much stuff do we export? Lots, if you didnt know. Does anyone think other countries will sit by and let us destroy their export markets through tariffs? No. Say bye bye to our export industries and all the people they employ.

I love it when people who know zero about trade and economics weigh in. They make it sound so easy. Of course if that were so, Smoot Hawley would have been a successful policy and E.Germany would be a world trade giant.

The notion that the U.S. will not retaliate against economic betrayal by American corporations who move their production facilities offshore because we fear tariffs being imposed on our exports is nonsense. It is the specious contrivance of the sonsabitches in the Congress who conspire with the corporations that choose to betray the nation that made their success possible.

We need not fear any kind of economic intimidation by any market in the world that we do business with for one simple reason -- we are the most powerful economic force in the world and we are capable of stepping on any market that wishes to play games with us. So don't be fooled by that cardboard propaganda. We have it within our means to aggressively undo all that has been done to us since the Reagan Revolution. All it will take is the willingness of our Congress to pass the necessary laws.

We need to tell those corporations that took our jobs to another country to turn around or we will crush them by any means necessary.

Hear, hear! I'd rep you but I have to spread it around first.

 

[Luissa]

Well, I'm also too lazy to google for ya

I do know a plumber, in north FL, that raked in 3mil last year though.

Yup. Plumbing is just one of those jobs that can't seem to be computerized and the type of job that can't be outsourced any further than an out house.

Now that I think of it, why was Joe The Plumber out of work? I can't recall.

He wasn't is why you can't recall it. In fact he was contemplating buying a business but hesitated given the anti business environment he thought Obama would bring.
And guess what? He was right.

You are hilarious!

 

[Againsheila]

My main point was that their money wasn't inherited. They studied and plied their trade.
Too lazy to elaborate more.

And my point was the hardest workers are on the lower end of the spectrum. I found it insulting that anyone thinks a billionaire works harder than a field worker.

And I did say "most", not "all" of the wealthiest people inherited their wealth. I asked for one example, just one of a wealthy person that started out picking in the fields, working as a maid or janitor, just ONE!!!!

that's totally wrong, 80% of millionaires are fist generation rich. FACT

Do you have a cite for your fact?

 

[MaggieMae]

If you're not aware of the important changes which have been imposed on our economic system since the 1950s you are in need of some basic education. I recommend that you start with the effects of Reaganomics.

His borrowing, the trade imbalance, and the devaluation of the dollar is what led to (once) US corporations off-shoring manufacturing in the search for ever lower wage platforms to compete. Even the most conservative political science scholars cede this point.

How would a trade imbalance or weak dollar lead corporations to go off shore? They would do the opposite, in fact. A weaker dollar would make it more expensive to build factories in other countries. In fact, outsourcing was going on under Clinton when the dollar was much higher, just as it is under Obama when the dollar is lower.
You are talking out of your ass. You have no basis for any statement you make other than seeing and hearing words and phrases on TV and in the press.

No, the impetus for offshore manufacturing comes from the high tax, high regulation, high wage system we have in this country that makes unskilled and semi skilled labor uncompetitive in the world market.

WTF? The purpose of trade agreements was (and is) to expand the sale of the products to foreign countries that we manufacture AT HOME. The original intent of getting into trade agreements wasn't to ship the whole goddamned plant operation overseas!!

At some point, greed entered the whole picture, and suddenly it was more lucrative to use the unskilled labor of those foreign countries instead of paying our own unskilled Americans to do the work here. Levi Strauss's profits certainly weren't hurting by having to pay workers a decent living. But they still chose to give the good ol' USA the middle finger and move their plants across the pond where they only had to pay a third, if that, for assembly line workers.

 

[The Rabbi]

You could always neg rep the post, which is what it deserves.
Not only will other countries retaliate with trade sanctions, they already have. Look at China, Europe, and Canada, all of them imposed sanctions in response to acts of the U.S. to protect our own industries.
Some people are just dumber than rocks.

 

[MaggieMae]

That's a problem how?
Most of the wealthy in this country are in fact small business owners. Sorry to interrupt your class envy orgy.

Surely you jest. If the small business owners are so wealthy, then why the hell won't they start hiring? Instead we hear the daily whine that they're too "scared" of what's gonna happen. As Barb said, HORSESHIT.

Does being wealthy have anything to do with hiring? Isn't hiring a business decision based on projected return on the employee's labor?
Or do you think hiring someone is an act of charity that the wealthy ought to do just because there are people who need a job and they have plenty of money? This is what the Obama Administration apparently believes.

And Barb is clearly full of shit herself as I posted her contradictory comments and asked her to pick one. She hasn't been back.

Well if business owners who are sitting on all this cash aren't prepared to be just a wee bit charitable and start hiring, maybe slowly (?), then how much more "charitable" can the Obama administration be? I mean after all, the screeching from the right is that the gubmit is being too charitable. Somebody's got to start creating jobs, and the government has reached the end of its rope (and authority) by way of tax incentives and tax credits. That leaves the private sector and they need to step up to the plate.

 

[MaggieMae]

And Barb is clearly full of shit herself as I posted her contradictory comments and asked her to pick one. She hasn't been back.

Some people have a life away from USMB.

 

[MaggieMae]

Yup. Plumbing is just one of those jobs that can't seem to be computerized and the type of job that can't be outsourced any further than an out house.

Now that I think of it, why was Joe The Plumber out of work? I can't recall.

He wasn't is why you can't recall it. In fact he was contemplating buying a business but hesitated given the anti business environment he thought Obama would bring.
And guess what? He was right.

You are hilarious!

The guy was a proven fraud, but Rabbi never read about that part.

 

[The Rabbi]

Surely you jest. If the small business owners are so wealthy, then why the hell won't they start hiring? Instead we hear the daily whine that they're too "scared" of what's gonna happen. As Barb said, HORSESHIT.

Does being wealthy have anything to do with hiring? Isn't hiring a business decision based on projected return on the employee's labor?
Or do you think hiring someone is an act of charity that the wealthy ought to do just because there are people who need a job and they have plenty of money? This is what the Obama Administration apparently believes.

And Barb is clearly full of shit herself as I posted her contradictory comments and asked her to pick one. She hasn't been back.

Well if business owners who are sitting on all this cash aren't prepared to be just a wee bit charitable and start hiring, maybe slowly (?), then how much more "charitable" can the Obama administration be? I mean after all, the screeching from the right is that the gubmit is being too charitable. Somebody's got to start creating jobs, and the government has reached the end of its rope (and authority) by way of tax incentives and tax credits. That leaves the private sector and they need to step up to the plate.

OK, so you believe that hiring someone is an act of charity.

Let me disabuse you of that notion.

Businesses exist to make money for their owners. That is the only reason they exist. In the course of doing that they frequently make money for their employees, their suppliers, their customers, and of course the government. But all of that is incidental to their true purpose, which is the enrichment of the owners.
Once the owners make money they may, if they so choose, contribute whatever they want to whomever they want for whatever purpose they want. But they are under no obligation, legal or moral, to.

Businesses will hire people ONLY if doing so will make them money. If it will not, they have no--zero--reason to hire someone. If they hire when it will not make them money they will eventually go out of business, causing job loss for lots of people.

Currently the administration has created the most anti business climate in memory. Businesses will not expand and will not hire in that environment. Nor should they.
So if you want to complain about unemployment, call Obama and tell him to lay the fuck off.