West's Communist Party claim about Democrats

[CrusaderFrank]

Remember the names Mary Jane Keeney and Philip Keeney? They were on the list I initially gave you of McCarthy's so-called "victims." You can find their names here:

List of Americans in the Venona papers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Being mentioned in the Venona papers is not evidence of having been a Soviet agent.

Next?

Wow!

Not even Jake Starkey is that much of a True Believer

Are you a card carrying Communist?

 

[Dragon]

Why would the Soviets name someone as an agent if that person wasn't an agent?

I agree with your question, but on the other hand why would you think that people who want a Communist in the White House would be upset if other Communists were in government?

There is not and never has been a Communist in the White House.

I almost said never will be, but I guess I can't be quite as sure of that. In any case, you're demonstrating once again that what you mean by "Communist" is the same thing that people who use the English language correctly mean by "liberal."

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I'm waiting for you to produce the explanation of why a communication between an American citizen and the KGB would be totally innocent.

We have no evidence that such communication took place, merely because someone's name was mentioned in the Venona cables.

In fact, the story you linked (which was Wikipedia, by the way, although I'll let that stand for the moment) pointed out that the mention of someone's name on the cables is not proof of espionage.

ROFL! Yeah, and holding a bloody knife when the police show up isn't proof that you killed the dead woman lying on the floor.

Why would the Soviets name someone as an agent if that person wasn't an agent?

[I would also point out that while this material was declassified only in 1995, it was available to the government in the 1950s, and was actually used in the prosecution of certain real Soviet agents. If the people who's names appear in these conversations were actually Soviet agents, and if this information proves that, why were they not prosecuted?

The FBI did not want the Soviets to know that their communications were being intercepted and their codes had been cracked. Procecuting everyone mentioned in the cables would have instantly alerted the Soviets that their communications were not secure. Rather than prosecute them, the government simply moved them to jobs that were not sensative.

Dragon is a genuine Communist himself and he is bitterly clinging to the illusion that Liberals still have a media monopoly

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Why would the Soviets name someone as an agent if that person wasn't an agent?

I agree with your question, but on the other hand why would you think that people who want a Communist in the White House would be upset if other Communists were in government?

Good point.

Now we hear that Venona was even an admission of Soviet spying. They are snorting KoolAid straight from the can

 

[Dragon]

You guys are reminding me of the lyrics to an old song:

Oh, we're meetin' at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
You just walk in the door and take the first turn to the right
Be careful when you get there, we hate to be bereft
But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society, help us fill the ranks
To get this movement started we need lots of tools and cranks

Now there's no one that we're certain the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did but he's our hero just the same

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Socialism is the ism dismalest of all
Join the John Birch Society, there's so much to do
Have you heard they're serving vodka at the WCTU?

Well you've heard about the agents that we've already named
Well MPA has agents that are flauntedly unashamed
We're after Rosie Clooney, we've gotten Pinkie Lee
And the day we get Red Skelton won't that be a victory

Oh we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Norman Vincent Peale may think he's kidding us along
But the John Birch Society knows he spilled the beans
He keeps on preaching brotherhood, but we know what he means

We'll teach you how to spot 'em in the cities or the sticks
For even Jasper Junction is just full of Bolsheviks
The CIA's subversive and so's the FCC
There's no one left but thee and we, and we're not sure of thee

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society holding off the Reds
We'll use our hand and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads

Do you want Justice Warren to be your Commissar?
Do you want Mrs. Krushchev in there with the DAR?
You cannot trust your neighbor or even next of kin
If mommie is a commie then you gotta turn her in

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the Right
Join the John Birch Society as we're marching on
And we'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John
The John, the John Birch So- ci- i- teee

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Dragon, are you a card carrying Communist?

Stop dryhumping like Jake and the other.

 

[kaz]

Why would the Soviets name someone as an agent if that person wasn't an agent?

I agree with your question, but on the other hand why would you think that people who want a Communist in the White House would be upset if other Communists were in government?

There is not and never has been a Communist in the White House.

I almost said never will be, but I guess I can't be quite as sure of that. In any case, you're demonstrating once again that what you mean by "Communist" is the same thing that people who use the English language correctly mean by "liberal."

Actually by "communist" I mean someone who supports the planks of the communist manifesto.

 

[kaz]

Dragon, are you a card carrying Communist?

Stop dryhumping like Jake and the other.

He thinks if he doesn't carry the card he's not one.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Dragon, are you a card carrying Communist?

Stop dryhumping like Jake and the other.

He thinks if he doesn't carry the card he's not one.

Or that he's fooling anyone.

Do you see how mad he gets when I tell him that the Communist People republic of Vietnam abandoned the failed centrally planned redistributive system in favor of free enterprise? He hates them because they're no longer True Believers

 

[Dragon]

I agree with your question, but on the other hand why would you think that people who want a Communist in the White House would be upset if other Communists were in government?

There is not and never has been a Communist in the White House.

I almost said never will be, but I guess I can't be quite as sure of that. In any case, you're demonstrating once again that what you mean by "Communist" is the same thing that people who use the English language correctly mean by "liberal."

Actually by "communist" I mean someone who supports the planks of the communist manifesto.

No, you mean someone who supports SOME of what you are erroneously calling the "planks" of the Communist Manifesto, which has no planks, cherry-picked to present only those that happen to agree with liberalism.

It's a standard ploy, long since discredited, and only someone completely out of touch with reality would still use it.

 

[kaz]

There is not and never has been a Communist in the White House.

I almost said never will be, but I guess I can't be quite as sure of that. In any case, you're demonstrating once again that what you mean by "Communist" is the same thing that people who use the English language correctly mean by "liberal."

Actually by "communist" I mean someone who supports the planks of the communist manifesto.

No, you mean someone who supports SOME of what you are erroneously calling the "planks" of the Communist Manifesto, which has no planks, cherry-picked to present only those that happen to agree with liberalism.

It's a standard ploy, long since discredited, and only someone completely out of touch with reality would still use it.

Or someone talking to someone completely out of touch with reality....

 

[Dragon]

Dragon, are you a card carrying Communist?

Stop dryhumping like Jake and the other.

He thinks if he doesn't carry the card he's not one.

Well, it's self-evident that if I don't have the card then I'm not a "card-carrying" Communist, isn't it?

As for whether I'm a Communist of any kind, the reason why I'm not one has nothing to do with carrying cards. It's because I don't believe in the inevitable revolution of the working class overthrowing capitalism and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat and a socialist economy, followed by the creation of a classless society and the withering away of the state to leave a communist utopia in which everyone shares.

As these are the beliefs that define "Communism," anyone who believes in them is a communist, and anyone who doesn't isn't one. Quite simple really.

 

[kaz]

Dragon, are you a card carrying Communist?

Stop dryhumping like Jake and the other.

He thinks if he doesn't carry the card he's not one.

Well, it's self-evident that if I don't have the card then I'm not a "card-carrying" Communist, isn't it?

As for whether I'm a Communist of any kind, the reason why I'm not one has nothing to do with carrying cards. It's because I don't believe in the inevitable revolution of the working class overthrowing capitalism and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat and a socialist economy, followed by the creation of a classless society and the withering away of the state to leave a communist utopia in which everyone shares.

As these are the beliefs that define "Communism," anyone who believes in them is a communist, and anyone who doesn't isn't one. Quite simple really.

Right, you're not a communist because you don't want a revolution everyone is forced by guns, you want to get to the same end through the ballot box and have a revolution enforced by guns...

hmmm...why aren't you a communist again?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

He thinks if he doesn't carry the card he's not one.

Well, it's self-evident that if I don't have the card then I'm not a "card-carrying" Communist, isn't it?

As for whether I'm a Communist of any kind, the reason why I'm not one has nothing to do with carrying cards. It's because I don't believe in the inevitable revolution of the working class overthrowing capitalism and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat and a socialist economy, followed by the creation of a classless society and the withering away of the state to leave a communist utopia in which everyone shares.

As these are the beliefs that define "Communism," anyone who believes in them is a communist, and anyone who doesn't isn't one. Quite simple really.

Right, you're not a communist because you don't want a revolution everyone is forced by guns, you want to get to the same end through the ballot box and have a revolution enforced by guns...

hmmm...why aren't you a communist again?

LOL.

Well, er, um, because...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Communist have a God complex, they KNOW best!

They KNOW what things should cost!

They KNOW when you've made enough money

They KNOW how to meet your needs and make you happy!

And if you don't believe them, there's the gulags or the firing squads

 

[Dragon]

Right, you're not a communist because you don't want a revolution everyone is forced by guns, you want to get to the same end through the ballot box and have a revolution enforced by guns...

I think I expressed myself clearly enough. Your harping on something that I didn't mention, namely guns, hardly serves to clarify matters.

To repeat: I don't believe in the inevitable revolution of the working class overthrowing capitalism and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat and a socialist economy, followed by the creation of a classless society and the withering away of the state to leave a communist utopia in which everyone shares.

Here are the elements of that belief system:

Inevitable revolution of the working class

Overthrow of capitalism and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat and a socialist economy

Creation of a classless society in which the state withers away and is replaced by a communist utopia in which everyone shares

Anyone who believes in all three of these is a Communist. Anyone who doesn't believe in one or more of them isn't a Communist. As it happens, I don't believe in any of them. If you want to throw in some line about guns, I guess you can do that, too, but that really is not a core belief of Communism so I'm not sure why you would, other than to confuse things.

 

[kaz]

Inevitable revolution of the working class

That's a process, not an end

Overthrow of capitalism and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat and a socialist economy

Says the guy who said capitalism is doomed. A discussion I and others who knew what they were talking about dropped out of because you had no interest in using any definitions but ones you made up.

Creation of a classless society in which the state withers away and is replaced by a communist utopia in which everyone shares

And what do you think the "1%" attacks from your brothers and sisters is all about exactly?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Saying we need more failed redistribution and central planning to rescue the US economy is like saying the Titanic should have rammed a second iceberg to try to plug the gaping hole left by the first.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Well, it's self-evident that if I don't have the card then I'm not a "card-carrying" Communist, isn't it?

As for whether I'm a Communist of any kind, the reason why I'm not one has nothing to do with carrying cards. It's because I don't believe in the inevitable revolution of the working class overthrowing capitalism and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat and a socialist economy, followed by the creation of a classless society and the withering away of the state to leave a communist utopia in which everyone shares.

As these are the beliefs that define "Communism," anyone who believes in them is a communist, and anyone who doesn't isn't one. Quite simple really.

So, you're just an authoritarian socialist/fascist then.

Such an improvement.....

 

[Dragon]

Inevitable revolution of the working class

That's a process, not an end

So what? It's something Communists believe in.

Says the guy who said capitalism is doomed.

Yes, well, let me see if I can help you in this little problem you seem to have in regard to making logical distinctions between things that have a superficial similarity. Perhaps an example will help.

Many Christians believe that one day the world will come to an end when Jesus comes back.

Many astronomers believe that some day the world will come to an end when an asteroid strikes it.

Many anti-nuclear advocates fear that some day the world will come to an end when the nations of the world engage in nuclear war.

All three of these groups believe that the world will, or at least may, come to an end. Nevertheless, all three groups are distinct.

I do believe that capitalism is doomed. However, I believe this for a completely different reason, and would advocate completely different solutions, than a Communist would.

And what do you think the "1%" attacks from your brothers and sisters is all about exactly?

I think it is not "exactly" about the creation of a stateless, classless utopia in which everyone shares. But that's because I know what the word "exactly" means.