What did our founders really mean when they said “general welfare”?

[ding]

In these days of difficulty, we Americans must and shall choose the path of social justice… the path of faith, the path of hope and the path of love toward our fellow man.”----FDR

Absolutely, to a point. Beyond that point... "...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber.
FDR, Annual Message to Congress, January 04, 1935

Annual Message to Congress | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

 

[ding]

Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” -----FDR

Absolutely, to a point. Beyond that point... "...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber.
FDR, Annual Message to Congress, January 04, 1935

Annual Message to Congress | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

 

[Vegasgiants]

Absolutely, to a point. Beyond that point... "...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber.

Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.”--------FDR

 

[ding]

Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.”--------FDR

Very true, to a point. Beyond that point... "...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber.
FDR, Annual Message to Congress, January 04, 1935

Annual Message to Congress | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

 

[Vegasgiants]

Very true, to a point. Beyond that point... "...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber.
FDR, Annual Message to Congress, January 04, 1935

Annual Message to Congress | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

expand...

In these days of difficulty, we Americans must and shall choose the path of social justice… the path of faith, the path of hope and the path of love toward our fellow man.”----FDR

 

[ding]

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. They will always vote for the general welfare of the wolves.

 

[ding]

In these days of difficulty, we Americans must and shall choose the path of social justice… the path of faith, the path of hope and the path of love toward our fellow man.”----FDR

Yep, to a point. Beyond that point... "...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber.
FDR, Annual Message to Congress, January 04, 1935

Annual Message to Congress | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

 

[Vegasgiants]

Yep, to a point. Beyond that point... "...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber.
FDR, Annual Message to Congress, January 04, 1935

Annual Message to Congress | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

I find you too boring


I come here for debate


You got nothing


Dismissed

 

[ding]

Democracy is mob rule, where 51% of the people vote for their general welfare at the expense of the other 49%.

 

[ding]

I find you too boring


I come here for debate


You got nothing


Dismissed

You mean besides FDR telling you that, "...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber.
FDR, Annual Message to Congress, January 04, 1935

Annual Message to Congress | The American Presidency Project​

 

[Vegasgiants]

A long long time ago I can still remember

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I find you too boring


I come here for debate


You got nothing


Dismissed

You dont debate you ignore anything that isnt what you wanted to hear.

 

[Vegasgiants]

You dont debate you ignore anything that isnt what you wanted to hear.

Right back at you idiot

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Right back at you idiot

Wrong I respond to your crap with facts links and information I dont just ignore it and then laugh hysterically when I have no point.

 

[Vegasgiants]

Wrong I respond to your crap with facts links and information I dont just ignore it and then laugh hysterically when I have no point.

I do the same you moron. You just lie about it


Dismissed

 

[Slade3200]

Used and succeeded are not mutually inclusive.

You can make any argument you want, that doesn't mean it will be successful.

You can't cite any cases where the preamble has been ruled to have any plenary power or force of law.

I’m not saying it has a force of law I’m saying arguments have been made and have been successful using the preamble and other supporting documents and writings by the founders to argue intent

 

[g5000]

What did our founders really mean when they said “general welfare”?​

Our founders explained very clearly in the Constitution what they meant by "the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States". And it had nothing to do with food stamps, social security, or national health insurance.

To demonstrate, I will first quote from The Federalist Papers in which the meaning was explained by Alexander Hamilton.

Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.

Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare."

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter.


And so let's look at the Constitution and read what follows that semicolon.

Section 8: Powers of Congress​

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;



See that semicolon? Here's what follows:




To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards and other needful Buildings;-And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

 

[BrokeLoser]

In these days of difficulty, we Americans must and shall choose the path of social justice… the path of faith, the path of hope and the path of love toward our fellow man.”----FDR

 

[Supposn]

“General” refers to ALL or the whole….not groups or individuals.

Polishprince, Brokeloser, Rightwinger, Evil Cat breath, the term “general welfare” within USA's constitution's section eight's first clause of its first article defining the rights and duties of our congress and within our constitution's preamble, allows for congressional consideration of anything within their comprehensive view of our nation's “general welfare”.

[Our system of checks and balances was created to reduce, (it cannot absolutely and with certainly prevent) our congress, or president, or military, or states, or local governments, or our voters from exceeding their authority and illegally redirecting our government. But in pretense of patriotism, the seditious January 6th mob attempted to halt peaceful transfer of power within our government.
Peaceful transfer of power is critical to a democratic republic's long-term survival.] Respectfully, Supposn

 

[bendog]

Our founders explained very clearly in the Constitution what they meant by "the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States". And it had nothing to do with food stamps, social security, or national health insurance.

To demonstrate, I will first quote from The Federalist Papers in which the meaning was explained by Alexander Hamilton.

Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.

Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare."

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter.


And so let's look at the Constitution and read what follows that semicolon.

Section 8: Powers of Congress​

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;



See that semicolon? Here's what follows:




To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards and other needful Buildings;-And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Was that Madison rather than Hamilton? I thought Hamilton favored a broad construction of general welfare.

I admit that I get a headache whenever I look at JRoberts' decision in obamacare. No on commerce clause. No on necessary and proper. Yes on taxation. I guess that means Congress can pass a law creating a lot of goodies for people to get healthcare, and the Supreme Court can't second guess the goodies, and Congress can create new taxes to pay for the goodies.