Debate Now What does Islam contribute to Western nations?

[eagle1462010]

Can Islam and Democracy Coexist in the Same Nation? – The Moderate Voice

In 2013, there was a survey of the viewpoints of 38,000 Muslims in 39 countries by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. A brief summary of the results follow.

Over three quarters of Muslims in South Asia and more than half in the Middle East and North Africa favored death for apostates (those who renounce Islam or practice it differently) and approved cutting off the hands of thieves. The overwhelming majority of Muslims in all Islamic states desired Sharia (Islamic religious law) for the official legal system. Large majorities of Muslims also believed that women must always obey their husbands and only a minority thought women should be permitted to divorce. Belief in God was felt to be a prerequisite for being a moral person, and immoral conduct included sex before marriage, drinking alcohol, and homosexuality. Western pop culture and media offerings were considered threats to morality in Islamic nations.

Though a majority of Muslims denounced suicide bombings, considerable minorities in all Islamic countries said it was justified in certain circumstances. And though most Muslims favored a democratic system of government, they wanted religious leaders to have a hand in shaping government policy. When asked to choose between democracy and a strong leader, just 55 percent opted for democracy in the Middle East and North Africa and only 45 percent in South Asia. A large proportion of Muslims found there was a conflict between Islam and modern society, as well as Islam and science.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

This is an Invite Only thread. If your member name does not appear in the alert call list -- DO NOT POST HERE -- do not even use the rating buttons on posts in this thread.

The one extra rule I have chosen is that there are no Deflections allowed, the Topic is Islam and not the but but but what about Christians thing. Of course I want all Invites to be cordial with each other, no name calling etc

What exactly does Islam contribute to Western nations that is positive and constructive? We on the Right can think of many reasons why Islam is not compatible with Western values.

We have Pro-Islamists who 98% are on the Left who put forward the mantra that IF Western nations do not accomodate unlimited amounts of Islamists that effectively Western nations are just going to collapse or whatever, that we literally CANNOT do without Islam and Islamists because they contribute such fundamental benefits to Western nations and that without Islam and Islamists it seems that Western nations will not be able to function anymore.

So what exactly are these fundamental benefits that Islam brings? What are the positive and constructive assets that Islam offers Western nations, benefits and assets that according to the Pro-Islamists we cannot do without.

The Rightist Invites are the below:

miketx HereWeGoAgain Correll eagle1462010 DarkFury

The Leftist Invites are the below:

Coyote candycorn Penelope Timmy JimH52

If ANYONE does NOT want to participate then just comment that you would prefer not to, please do not have a Drama Queen fit or whatever

Okay so now all of the Rightist Invites have accepted and have posted, not ONE of the five Leftist Invites has yet posted anything, this says what that you cannot provide ANY examples of the benefits that YOU insist Islam brings to Western nations? Which YOU insist is why Western nations should both embrace Islam and also allow unlimited amounts of Muslims into Western nations.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Poland has moved against Islamics as well. What good have they done? Well if you are BIG governent and ANTI gun you have a way to terrorize your citizens. These "groups" like Islam or MS13 are tools by which BIG government will TRY and convince citizens citizens need fewer guns and more governent control.

If you told Texans it was LEGAL to shoot border hoppers border hopping would END in Texas in under 6 months.

Damn right it would!!!

I'd even be willing to shoot em in the leg regardless of the ammo waste.
Of course I'd do it with a smile knowing all of the major arteries in the leg would likely mean they'd bleed out.
But hey,if liberals insist......

 

[miketx]

The coward bastards won't dare post here.
They know they spew lies.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

They believe in Theology.........Gov't is controlled by Religion.........It is put into their hearts and minds as little Children.

And they believe their purpose is the spread of it. The customs in the Middle East from which they come are by our standards Barbarism by many here. They will not adapt and press for their faith to form Sharia Courts and a belief that we are infidels even though WE ALLOWED THEM to live here.........Talk about biting the hand that feeds you............We are under no obligation to accept anyone...........This is not their country it is ours.........If you can't respect our laws and culture.........we don't need you.

As you comment the situation is in all Western nations that Islam has been allowed in to, they will not adapt they will not 100% adhere to Western values they arrive in Western nations bringing THEIR system, THEIR customs, THEIR values, THEIR philosophy ALL of which are 100% diametrically opposed to OUR system, OUR customs, OUR values, OUR philosophy, they want US to adapt to THEIR ways to ACCOMODATE them when it should be that THEY adapt to OUR ways.

I have given a selection of Leftists who we see in nearly all threads on Islam the opportunity to get in this thread to tell us the benefits they INSIST that Islam brings to Western nations, for them to elaborate on why they love Islam so much, they are not in this thread able to do what they do in the other threads that is when we comment why we think Islam is not compatible with Western values they are not able to deflect by changing the topic to anything from Christians to Hindus and also they are not able to resort to their favourite of telling everyone they are a racist bigot for NOT accepting that Islam is compatible with Western values and these things combined with that they must be not able to give adequate reasons why Islam should be allowed into Western nations are the reasons why IMHO not ONE of them this far has been able to make any comments in this thread.

 

[DarkFury]

Poland has moved against Islamics as well. What good have they done? Well if you are BIG governent and ANTI gun you have a way to terrorize your citizens. These "groups" like Islam or MS13 are tools by which BIG government will TRY and convince citizens citizens need fewer guns and more governent control.

If you told Texans it was LEGAL to shoot border hoppers border hopping would END in Texas in under 6 months.

Damn right it would!!!

I'd even be willing to shoot em in the leg regardless of the ammo waste.
Of course I'd do it with a smile knowing all of the major arteries in the leg would likely mean they'd bleed out.
But hey,if liberals insist......

Liberals are always crying about it NEEDS to be a militia. President Trump SHOULD form militias. FIRST Texas, FIRST Arizona and put them on the border with the army keeping them fed and armed. Air Force flying cover. If Democrats INSIST on Organized Militias okay, BUILD THEM.

Shit Stain said for yars... "You didn't build that"...Well WE DID build that and WE CAN defend it. I would be willing to bet money right here and right now WE COULD get 10,000 Texans and 10,000 Arizonians to DEFEND our border!

 

[eagle1462010]

Sharia is code of ethics for them...........Everything is about religion..........which is why they will always eventually push for Sharia Courts.......they believe Only God can judge them and the Sharia court is the true interpretation of God.........and only they can pass sentence for issues regarding Muslims...........Conflicts with our laws and legal system..........and even Democracy and Secularism..................

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Poland has moved against Islamics as well. What good have they done? Well if you are BIG governent and ANTI gun you have a way to terrorize your citizens. These "groups" like Islam or MS13 are tools by which BIG government will TRY and convince citizens citizens need fewer guns and more governent control.

If you told Texans it was LEGAL to shoot border hoppers border hopping would END in Texas in under 6 months.

Damn right it would!!!

I'd even be willing to shoot em in the leg regardless of the ammo waste.
Of course I'd do it with a smile knowing all of the major arteries in the leg would likely mean they'd bleed out.
But hey,if liberals insist......

Liberals are always crying about it NEEDS to be a militia. President Trump SHOULD form militias. FIRST Texas, FIRST Arizona and put them on the border with the army keeping them fed and armed. Air Force flying cover. If Democrats INSIST on Organized Militias okay, BUILD THEM.

Shit Stain said for yars... "You didn't build that"...Well WE DID build that and WE CAN defend it. I would be willing to bet money right here and right now WE COULD get 10,000 Texans and 10,000 Arizonians to DEFEND our border!

Shiiiiit....there'd be a waiting list!!!
You could sell spots on the border to the highest bidder and it would be self sustaining with money to spare.

 

[Coyote]

I will take the plunge and attempt to answer, but first I want to clarify or have clarity on a few points.

This is an Invite Only thread. If your member name does not appear in the alert call list -- DO NOT POST HERE -- do not even use the rating buttons on posts in this thread.

The one extra rule I have chosen is that there are no Deflections allowed, the Topic is Islam and not the but but but what about Christians thing. Of course I want all Invites to be cordial with each other, no name calling etc

What exactly does Islam contribute to Western nations that is positive and constructive? We on the Right can think of many reasons why Islam is not compatible with Western values.

Do you mean Islam as an entire religion or Muslims as an immigration group?

We have Pro-Islamists who 98% are on the Left who put forward the mantra that IF Western nations do not accomodate unlimited amounts of Islamists that effectively Western nations are just going to collapse or whatever, that we literally CANNOT do without Islam and Islamists because they contribute such fundamental benefits to Western nations and that without Islam and Islamists it seems that Western nations will not be able to function anymore.

This is something I do not agree with. No one is making that claim and I hate arguing based on false premises. Immigration needs to be controlled. No country can sustain unlimited and uncontrolled immigration whether they are Muslim or some other group. I'm not making that argument and neither are any other leftists I know here.

Second thing - and this needs clarity. Are you conflating immigration of Muslims with immigration of Islamists? Those are two different things. Are we talking about Muslims or Islamists?

So what exactly are these fundamental benefits that Islam brings? What are the positive and constructive assets that Islam offers Western nations, benefits and assets that according to the Pro-Islamists we cannot do without.

Muslims come from a variety of countries - each of whom can offer benefits, whether it's in the arts, music, architecture, science, or - simply being good law abiding citizens.

Islam as a religion is harder to say, not because it's Islam but because I don't see any religions per se as offering many fundamental benefits to western, democratic governments - they often seem to be in opposition. But I can see some fundamental benefts and they tend to cross the lines of multiple faiths.

Islam offers a way of life that is based on belief in God, the giving of charity, and many codes of conduct that promote good citizenry. I'm sure at this point some one is going to bring up a gigantic post of all the war like quotes in the Koran, but if they are fair - they will also admit there are many good ones that people strive to live by. Islam, when not taken to extremes promotes community, caring for the poor, widows and unfortunate, curteous behavior, and modesty (no spandex muffin tops). How Islam is practiced depends on the culture of the immigrant group.

Islam offers art.

Art Of Iranian Immigrants Reveals The Creative Potential Of Inclusivity | HuffPost
‘A Positive Understanding of Islam’ -
The Art of Vulnerability and an Epidemic of Communal Trauma | Wisconsin Muslim Journal

Music




Cuisine
Ramadan Recipes

Architecture

 

[Coyote]

There's obviously no benefit to muslim immigration to the West.

Any immigrant that becomes a good productive citizen is a a benefit.

 

[Coyote]

This is an Invite Only thread. If your member name does not appear in the alert call list -- DO NOT POST HERE -- do not even use the rating buttons on posts in this thread.

The one extra rule I have chosen is that there are no Deflections allowed, the Topic is Islam and not the but but but what about Christians thing. Of course I want all Invites to be cordial with each other, no name calling etc

What exactly does Islam contribute to Western nations that is positive and constructive? We on the Right can think of many reasons why Islam is not compatible with Western values.

We have Pro-Islamists who 98% are on the Left who put forward the mantra that IF Western nations do not accomodate unlimited amounts of Islamists that effectively Western nations are just going to collapse or whatever, that we literally CANNOT do without Islam and Islamists because they contribute such fundamental benefits to Western nations and that without Islam and Islamists it seems that Western nations will not be able to function anymore.

So what exactly are these fundamental benefits that Islam brings? What are the positive and constructive assets that Islam offers Western nations, benefits and assets that according to the Pro-Islamists we cannot do without.

The Rightist Invites are the below:

miketx HereWeGoAgain Correll eagle1462010 DarkFury

The Leftist Invites are the below:

Coyote candycorn Penelope Timmy JimH52

If ANYONE does NOT want to participate then just comment that you would prefer not to, please do not have a Drama Queen fit or whatever

Okay so now all of the Rightist Invites have accepted and have posted, not ONE of the five Leftist Invites has yet posted anything, this says what that you cannot provide ANY examples of the benefits that YOU insist Islam brings to Western nations? Which YOU insist is why Western nations should both embrace Islam and also allow unlimited amounts of Muslims into Western nations.

Some of us have things to do. I had to get the cleaning done, and then go for a two mile run and 3 mile hike with the dogs. More important than the internet

 

[Coyote]

So what exactly are these fundamental benefits that Islam brings? What are the positive and constructive assets that Islam offers Western nations, benefits and assets that according to the Pro-Islamists we cannot do without.

Who has said that?

I don't think any religion offers "benefits and assets" we cannot do without.

What immigrants can offer are hard work (in the US at least, they are usually hard working, multiple jobs, trying very hard to succeed and to educate their children to a better standard of living then they themselves have experienced). Many are entrepenural, starting their own business'. So while it might not be Nobel Prize winners, it's solid good citizenry.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

There's obviously no benefit to muslim immigration to the West.

Any immigrant that becomes a good productive citizen is a a benefit.

I would agree other than the likely hood that a muslim would refuse to turn another muslim in if they planned to commit a terrorist act.
It happens in Americas ghettos already with the black communities refusal to "snitch" on other blacks for crimes they've committed.
In other words ......we dont need another class of dindo nuffins.

 

[Coyote]

There's obviously no benefit to muslim immigration to the West.

Any immigrant that becomes a good productive citizen is a a benefit.

I would agree other than the likely hood that a muslim would refuse to turn another muslim in if they planned to commit a terrorist act.
It happens in Americas ghettos already with the black communities refusal to "snitch" on other blacks for crimes they've committed.
In other words ......we dont need another class of dindo nuffins.

Yet they do - FBI gets much of it's useful information from Muslim communities

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

So what exactly are these fundamental benefits that Islam brings? What are the positive and constructive assets that Islam offers Western nations, benefits and assets that according to the Pro-Islamists we cannot do without.

Who has said that?

I don't think any religion offers "benefits and assets" we cannot do without.

What immigrants can offer are hard work (in the US at least, they are usually hard working, multiple jobs, trying very hard to succeed and to educate their children to a better standard of living then they themselves have experienced). Many are entrepenural, starting their own business'. So while it might not be Nobel Prize winners, it's solid good citizenry.

I'll admit that some immigrants do benefit society to a certain extent.
Of course i've never seen a roofing crew of muslims roof a 5000 square ft house in three days like I witnessed last week.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

There's obviously no benefit to muslim immigration to the West.

Any immigrant that becomes a good productive citizen is a a benefit.

I would agree other than the likely hood that a muslim would refuse to turn another muslim in if they planned to commit a terrorist act.
It happens in Americas ghettos already with the black communities refusal to "snitch" on other blacks for crimes they've committed.
In other words ......we dont need another class of dindo nuffins.

Yet they do - FBI gets much of it's useful information from Muslim communities

You'll have to give me some instances where that happened.
We already know the family of the Tsarnaev brothers protected them after the Boston marathon bombings as did the wife of the gay nightclub shootings in Florida.

 

[eagle1462010]

This is something I do not agree with. No one is making that claim and I hate arguing based on false premises. Immigration needs to be controlled. No country can sustain unlimited and uncontrolled immigration whether they are Muslim or some other group. I'm not making that argument and neither are any other leftists I know here.

We will disagree here. Actions speak louder than words. By agreeing Obama policies of Catch and Release many are practicing what they preach. That is a Welcome Mat as they stay here for many years and dontd show up for court. Sanctuary cities is also flagrant disregard for our laws.

 

[eagle1462010]

I have shown an article that shows large percentage agree with death of apostates and even suicide bombing. That doesn't mean all are like that and it has never meant that. But too many leftist straw man that argument to all. Given that so many think that way and having no real means to read their minds, for they safety of our countries we must reject all. Because those on those groups turn and cause death and destruction for their host countries.

There are many different versions of Islam. All agree to the 5 pillars, but many take the avenue of to the letter of Islamic passages. They turn Sharia into Juhad and we have a problem. Again we do not have mind cops who can esp into their brains to determine if they are good or bad.

Attacks in Europe and the world of these types confirm that reality.

 

[eagle1462010]

And the challenge goes unanswered to gather dust in old thread memories.............

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

I will take the plunge and attempt to answer, but first I want to clarify or have clarity on a few points.

This is an Invite Only thread. If your member name does not appear in the alert call list -- DO NOT POST HERE -- do not even use the rating buttons on posts in this thread.

The one extra rule I have chosen is that there are no Deflections allowed, the Topic is Islam and not the but but but what about Christians thing. Of course I want all Invites to be cordial with each other, no name calling etc

What exactly does Islam contribute to Western nations that is positive and constructive? We on the Right can think of many reasons why Islam is not compatible with Western values.

Do you mean Islam as an entire religion or Muslims as an immigration group?

We have Pro-Islamists who 98% are on the Left who put forward the mantra that IF Western nations do not accomodate unlimited amounts of Islamists that effectively Western nations are just going to collapse or whatever, that we literally CANNOT do without Islam and Islamists because they contribute such fundamental benefits to Western nations and that without Islam and Islamists it seems that Western nations will not be able to function anymore.

This is something I do not agree with. No one is making that claim and I hate arguing based on false premises. Immigration needs to be controlled. No country can sustain unlimited and uncontrolled immigration whether they are Muslim or some other group. I'm not making that argument and neither are any other leftists I know here.

Second thing - and this needs clarity. Are you conflating immigration of Muslims with immigration of Islamists? Those are two different things. Are we talking about Muslims or Islamists?

So what exactly are these fundamental benefits that Islam brings? What are the positive and constructive assets that Islam offers Western nations, benefits and assets that according to the Pro-Islamists we cannot do without.

Muslims come from a variety of countries - each of whom can offer benefits, whether it's in the arts, music, architecture, science, or - simply being good law abiding citizens.

Islam as a religion is harder to say, not because it's Islam but because I don't see any religions per se as offering many fundamental benefits to western, democratic governments - they often seem to be in opposition. But I can see some fundamental benefts and they tend to cross the lines of multiple faiths.

Islam offers a way of life that is based on belief in God, the giving of charity, and many codes of conduct that promote good citizenry. I'm sure at this point some one is going to bring up a gigantic post of all the war like quotes in the Koran, but if they are fair - they will also admit there are many good ones that people strive to live by. Islam, when not taken to extremes promotes community, caring for the poor, widows and unfortunate, curteous behavior, and modesty (no spandex muffin tops). How Islam is practiced depends on the culture of the immigrant group.

Islam offers art.

Art Of Iranian Immigrants Reveals The Creative Potential Of Inclusivity | HuffPost
‘A Positive Understanding of Islam’ -
The Art of Vulnerability and an Epidemic of Communal Trauma | Wisconsin Muslim Journal

Music




Cuisine
Ramadan Recipes

Architecture

"Do you mean Islam as an entire religion or Muslims as an immigration group?"

Both this considering that all Muslims adhere to Islam and so as an immigration group bring Islam with them, it is not possible to separate Muslims from Islam they go together.

"This is something I do not agree with. No one is making that claim and I hate arguing based on false premises. Immigration needs to be controlled. No country can sustain unlimited and uncontrolled immigration whether they are Muslim or some other group. I'm not making that argument and neither are any other leftists I know here."

Well 99% of Open Borders ie. NO Borders and Pro-Immigration Organisations are either Leftist or Lean Leftist, there are very few if ANY Right-Wing Conservative organisations that actively promote Open Borders ie. NO Borders and Pro-Immigration of the Muslim type, if you support Open Borders ie. NO Borders that is supporting UNLIMITED Immigration and it's the type of Immigration that seems ONLY to be advocating Non-Christian Immigration into Western nations, in actuality a lot of Syrian Christians for example are not even entertained by these Pro-Immigration Organisations.

"Second thing - and this needs clarity. Are you conflating immigration of Muslims with immigration of Islamists? Those are two different things. Are we talking about Muslims or Islamists?"

There is a difference only on paper, the problem is that as ALL Muslims adhere to Islam there is a fundamental danger they can and will develop into an Islamist, too many instances there have occur where x Muslim who sell z their newspaper for approx 10 years then suddenly is arrested as being part of an Islamist Sleeper Cell. This is the problem with Islam, that ALL Muslims adhere to the philosophy as instructed by the Prophet Mohammed, it is because of this fanatical adherence that ANY ordinary Muslim can very easily be Radicalised.

"Muslims come from a variety of countries - each of whom can offer benefits, whether it's in the arts, music, architecture, science, or - simply being good law abiding citizens."

Yes I know but the problem is you do not know who is the White Hat and who is the Black Hat or when who you thought was a White Hat has become a Black Hat eg. I know of someone who is a Neurosurgeon and for approx six years they had a colleague who happens to be a Muslim and there was NO problem and they were friends and everything was okay until one day they were arrested in a 6AM raid and this because a Sleeper Cell had been monitored and that Muslim who worked with a friend of ours they were in that Sleeper Cell. So how can you determine the White Hat, the Black Hat and the White Hat who has become a Black Hat but you do not know until they are arrested? The situation now is that many do not now trust ANY Muslims.

"Islam as a religion is harder to say, not because it's Islam but because I don't see any religions per se as offering many fundamental benefits to western, democratic governments - they often seem to be in opposition. But I can see some fundamental benefts and they tend to cross the lines of multiple faiths."

I will turn this to the opposite situation. If WE all were in an Islamic Nation, would we be tolerated issuing demands that we are given special rights, that we can wear the clothing we have in Western Nations, that we should be able to eat the foods we want to, that we should be able to drink alcohol, that we should be allowed Freedom of Expression to say Fuck Islam, Fuck the Prophet Mohammed, Death to the Prophet Mohammed etc NO we would NOT be tolerated issuing such demands.

The Muslims come to Western Nations, they issue demands that they have special rights, that their women are covered, that they have Halal foods, that NO alcohol be served in their presence, that they abuse OUR Freedom of Expression and that anyone who even criticises Islam is guilty of Hate Speech etc

"Islam offers a way of life that is based on belief in God, the giving of charity, and many codes of conduct that promote good citizenry. I'm sure at this point some one is going to bring up a gigantic post of all the war like quotes in the Koran, but if they are fair - they will also admit there are many good ones that people strive to live by. Islam, when not taken to extremes promotes community, caring for the poor, widows and unfortunate, curteous behavior, and modesty (no spandex muffin tops). How Islam is practiced depends on the culture of the immigrant group."

Which God not OUR God, their God is Allah, the same Allah they slaughter OUR peoples in the Name Of.

Yes Islam promotes community but a community ONLY for Muslims and Muslim Converts, they deliberately by CHOICE Ghettoize themselves in their own Mini Islamic Nations within Western Nations, I add I am commenting this from purely a Western European perspective, I have not studied how Muslims in America are organised in general although I have read about there in the State of Minnesota it is Somalia v2 and also I have read about what occur in Dearborn in the State of Michigan, both these examples are of huge amounts of Muslims forming their OWN Community of a Mini Islamic Nation.

"Islam offers art. Cuisine. Architecture."

This I know yes, but for multiple Centuries we have existed perfectly and adequately in Western nations with our own art, cuisine and architecture, we do not need Islam being Imported to sustain these things for us.

I have commented many times at this forum about my great admiration for Islamic Architecture and my adoration of Robert Byron's book "The Road To Oxiana" which deals SPECIFICALLY with Islamic Architecture. I have many Persian friends, I've visited Tehran and several other areas including Susa and Shiraz in Iran. I had wanted to visit Iran ever since I read for the first time Robert Byron's book, published in 1937, it's probably one of the best books about travel and Middle Eastern Architecture ever written.

The cover picture of the book, that is a 1911 photograph taken by A.T. Wilson, Shiraz in Winter through the Qur'an Gate. The Qur'an Gate is in the north of Shiraz, Iran, I can't determine from the picture which mountain that is, it's either the Baba Kouhi or the Chehel Maqam.

The Road to Oxiana - Wikipedia