What does it mean to "love your country"?

[LeftofLeft]

I’ve always wondered how you can love your country and yet want to “fundamentally transform” your country.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

No one 'loves' a patch of dirt, but many have shouldered a rifle to defend the ideology it resides in

~S~

How does a patch of dirt reside within an ideology? And is this ideology ubiquitous upon this land, or exlusive to this land? I don’t know that this would suffice as a definition of country. I believe a a country is the group of people living under a particular ruling class, and the land defined by their territory. This seems an odd thing to love, though.

Hi Brian

let's see, where do i start?

Ok, in the past many cultures went to to explore and/or conqueor the 'new world' , plunked their flag in the ground insisting it their turf , and imposed their laws and beliefs

So let's further the analogy...

Let's say we place some patriots in a space ship, and let 'em place a flag on whatever unoccupied 'patch of dirt' they land on.....

I’m not sure I follow, Sparky. It seems any territory claimed by the ruling class symbolized by that flag would be part of the “country”, wouldn’t it? I don’t know what’s meant by this “country” business, which is why I’m asking those people who are.

If I were to use the word, it would be in the context of the land and associated culture, as in, “It’s a fine country of rolling hills and hospitable people.” But it seems to have a political context for many. They love the flag, and the Constitution, and planes bombing people who speak other languages or something. I don’t know.

I would say there's an inherent ideology in being American, where ever one may find Americans Brian

~S~

But is there really? Is there that level of consensus between 325,000,000 people? And if so, is this ideology unique to Americans such that they could be defined as a unique group?

What is this ideology?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I’ve always wondered how you can love your country and yet want to “fundamentally transform” your country.

On the other hand, I wonder how people can love their country and still see many problems.

Imagine you're a Communist and you love your country, wouldn't you want it to become a Communist state?

Imagine you had a child who was gay, you love that child, but you'd prefer they weren't gay.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

What is meant by saying you love your country?

Does it mean you love:
-The government?
-The people inhabiting a particular area of land?
-The land itself?
-The culture (language, entertainment, beliefs, etc.)

All things considered, I don't believe there is anyone who would say they love any of these things in total, or to the exclusion of all other examples throughout the world. It seems reasonable to presume that there are things you like about your culture, for instance, and things that you do not like about it. But that could also be said about many other cultures. For instance, most people enjoy some of the food popular in their culture, but not all of them; but they also like some Italian foods, and not all of them. I think this could be said of any aspect of a "country" such that the expression does not seem to mean anything particular at all.

I suspect it may just refer to an emotional state that is connected with a nebulous notion of "the country". Precisely what constitutes the country is difficult to define. What do we really mean? Where does this idea come from? Did it originate within ourselves, or is it just something we picked up from the culture itself?

In the case of my country, I love its creed, the ideals it was founded on and that it aspires to fulfill. I love that we have a heritage that is inclusive of anyone who also believes in our ideals and wants to peacefully and legally become a part of working toward them.

Creed, heritage, and this aspiration are really just thoughts in one's mind, are they not? What defines this heritage? The land? The governmental construct? Perhaps the heritage you speak of is the creed and the aspiration...

But is there really some unifying creed and aspiration that unites this particular population of people, to the exclusion of all others? Judging by these boards and the screaming, angry people we see at rallies, I would say this is just an object of imagination - it does not exist. Even something like the Constitution - the tangible, defining object of this creed - there is much debate about interpretation, application, and even validity. So what is meant by the word "country"? What defines it? What does it include, and what does it not include?

 

[BrokeLoser]

If you need to ask you probably...

A- Don't love your country for whatever reason.
B- Have never been to another one to compare them.

I don't accept that asking for clarification necessarily implies any of that. I'm asking people to clearly define what they mean when they say this. It's no more than each person should ask of themselves.

Haha...you don’t seek clarity at all...fools can see that. I know your type.
Me: “The sky is blue.”
You: “But what shade of blue is it? Is it really blue? At night it appears black...no?”

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I think we're kind of talking in circles at this point but I enjoyed the discussion. Welcome to USMB.

Thank you, but I must leave you with the acknowledgment that if one cannot answer the question "How can people validly delegate rights and powers they do not themselves possess?" then their support of government is only possible through cognitive dissonance. Furthermore, if they cannot logically establish the validity of government, they are acting immorally by unleashing this massive institution of coercive violence upon their family, neighbors, and the world at large. It behooves us to consider this carefully if we wish to lay claim to being moral, responsible members of the world society.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

If you need to ask you probably...

A- Don't love your country for whatever reason.
B- Have never been to another one to compare them.

I don't accept that asking for clarification necessarily implies any of that. I'm asking people to clearly define what they mean when they say this. It's no more than each person should ask of themselves.

Haha...you don’t t seek clarity at all...fools can see that. I know your type.
Me: “The sky is blue.”
You: “But what shade of blue is it? Is it really blue? At night it appears black...no?”

Yes, and I know your type: Those who appeal to the pedestrian disdain for philosophy to justify their own inability to fulfill their duty to it. I am asking what people mean by the word "country" because I don't see it as clearly defined. It seems to be a nebulous, romanticized notion - the propaganda of nationalism - and it has divisive, destructive consequences. This is my conclusion, but I acknowledge the possibility that it could be incorrect. So I am providing an opportunity for someone to prove me wrong. The hope is that I will clearly see my error, or they will see theirs. This is clarification. It is not unreasonable to expect people to logically demonstrate the validity of their assertions.

 

[BrokeLoser]

If you need to ask you probably...

A- Don't love your country for whatever reason.
B- Have never been to another one to compare them.

I don't accept that asking for clarification necessarily implies any of that. I'm asking people to clearly define what they mean when they say this. It's no more than each person should ask of themselves.

Haha...you don’t t seek clarity at all...fools can see that. I know your type.
Me: “The sky is blue.”
You: “But what shade of blue is it? Is it really blue? At night it appears black...no?”

Yes, and I know your type: Those who appeal to the pedestrian disdain for philosophy to justify their own inability to fulfill their duty to it. I am asking what people mean by the word "country" because I don't see it as clearly defined. It seems to be a nebulous, romanticized notion - the propaganda of nationalism - and it has divisive, destructive consequences. This is my conclusion, but I acknowledge the possibility that it could be incorrect. So I am providing an opportunity for someone to prove me wrong. The hope is that I will clearly see my error, or they will see theirs. This is clarification. It is not unreasonable to expect people to logically demonstrate the validity of their assertions.

You’re doing an awesome job scholar...I can see that you’ve rehearsed this debate many times over. You have all the right words in just the right places. You love this debate, it would piss you off to no end if you allowed yourself to find resolve in this. Again, I know your type, your “play” is gay and played the fuck out.

 

[BrokeLoser]

What is meant by saying you love your country?

Does it mean you love:
-The government?
-The people inhabiting a particular area of land?
-The land itself?
-The culture (language, entertainment, beliefs, etc.)

All things considered, I don't believe there is anyone who would say they love any of these things in total, or to the exclusion of all other examples throughout the world. It seems reasonable to presume that there are things you like about your culture, for instance, and things that you do not like about it. But that could also be said about many other cultures. For instance, most people enjoy some of the food popular in their culture, but not all of them; but they also like some Italian foods, and not all of them. I think this could be said of any aspect of a "country" such that the expression does not seem to mean anything particular at all.

I suspect it may just refer to an emotional state that is connected with a nebulous notion of "the country". Precisely what constitutes the country is difficult to define. What do we really mean? Where does this idea come from? Did it originate within ourselves, or is it just something we picked up from the culture itself?

In the case of my country, I love its creed, the ideals it was founded on and that it aspires to fulfill. I love that we have a heritage that is inclusive of anyone who also believes in our ideals and wants to peacefully and legally become a part of working toward them.

Creed, heritage, and this aspiration are really just thoughts in one's mind, are they not? What defines this heritage? The land? The governmental construct? Perhaps the heritage you speak of is the creed and the aspiration...

But is there really some unifying creed and aspiration that unites this particular population of people, to the exclusion of all others? Judging by these boards and the screaming, angry people we see at rallies, I would say this is just an object of imagination - it does not exist. Even something like the Constitution - the tangible, defining object of this creed - there is much debate about interpretation, application, and even validity. So what is meant by the word "country"? What defines it? What does it include, and what does it not include?

Where you want to steer this is quite clear.
You hate nationalists, you hate good, REAL American people whom respect American culture, tradition and history, you hate good quality folks that prefer to live among likeminded good quality folks, you probably hate the English language. You hate America’s founding principles, you hate Christianity, the U.S. Constitution and the U.S. flag. We totally get it bud.
Again....I KNOW YOUR TYPE.

 

[LeftofLeft]

I’ve always wondered how you can love your country and yet want to “fundamentally transform” your country.

On the other hand, I wonder how people can love their country and still see many problems.

Imagine you're a Communist and you love your country, wouldn't you want it to become a Communist state?

Imagine you had a child who was gay, you love that child, but you'd prefer they weren't gay.

You are talking about "conditional love". Are you still going to love that child after your "fundamental transformation" efforts fail? Are you going to respect that child for being gay or are you going to undermine his will and right to live as a homosexual?

On your first example, the communists loves what his country can potentially be and not necessarily continue to love the country if the "fundamental transformation" fails.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

What is meant by saying you love your country?

Does it mean you love:
-The government?
-The people inhabiting a particular area of land?
-The land itself?
-The culture (language, entertainment, beliefs, etc.)

All things considered, I don't believe there is anyone who would say they love any of these things in total, or to the exclusion of all other examples throughout the world. It seems reasonable to presume that there are things you like about your culture, for instance, and things that you do not like about it. But that could also be said about many other cultures. For instance, most people enjoy some of the food popular in their culture, but not all of them; but they also like some Italian foods, and not all of them. I think this could be said of any aspect of a "country" such that the expression does not seem to mean anything particular at all.

I suspect it may just refer to an emotional state that is connected with a nebulous notion of "the country". Precisely what constitutes the country is difficult to define. What do we really mean? Where does this idea come from? Did it originate within ourselves, or is it just something we picked up from the culture itself?

In the case of my country, I love its creed, the ideals it was founded on and that it aspires to fulfill. I love that we have a heritage that is inclusive of anyone who also believes in our ideals and wants to peacefully and legally become a part of working toward them.

Creed, heritage, and this aspiration are really just thoughts in one's mind, are they not? What defines this heritage? The land? The governmental construct? Perhaps the heritage you speak of is the creed and the aspiration...

But is there really some unifying creed and aspiration that unites this particular population of people, to the exclusion of all others? Judging by these boards and the screaming, angry people we see at rallies, I would say this is just an object of imagination - it does not exist. Even something like the Constitution - the tangible, defining object of this creed - there is much debate about interpretation, application, and even validity. So what is meant by the word "country"? What defines it? What does it include, and what does it not include?

Where you want to steer this is quite clear.
You hate nationalists, you hate good, REAL American people whom respect American culture, tradition and history, you hate good quality folks that prefer to live among likeminded good quality folks, you probably hate the English language. You hate America’s founding principles, you hate Christianity, the U.S. Constitution and the U.S. flag. We totally get it bud.
Again....I KNOW YOUR TYPE.

You can paint me up however you like (though I don’t see the purpose in it), but it’s simply not true - at least not entirely. The only place I want to “steer” this conversation is toward truth, and away from euphemism, fallacy, and cognitive dissonance. I would be perfectly content to leave it there once found.

I do not hate the English language. I find it (and all other languages) fascinating. I do not hate Christianity, at least not the teachings attributed to Christ, but I do wish people would drop the dogma and exclusivity of “religion” and focus on the wisdom and love of those teachings.

Visually I like the American flag, and I’m not immune to a certain sentimentality evoked when considering the noble ideals of the revolutionaries. But that flag expressly stands for a Republic, and this I cannot abide because it denies the inherent freedom of man. I do not respect governmental law as established by the Constitution, because it is slavery; but I do respect the natural law cited as its basis because it is freedom, and I honor the writings of the founding fathers on that topic.

I’m all about good quality folks wanting to live amongst other good quality folks. But I’m sorry, if you purposefully leverage the power of the state against me and my family, I do not consider you to be of good quality. If you think it’s morally justified to empower an immense institution of violent coercion to steal the fruit of my labor to pay for what you deem important, you are an enemy of freedom. If you believe that such an institution has any claim to authority over any person, you are an enemy of humanity.

That is my stance; and I consider it to be more in keeping with the lofty notions of freedom that many ”REAL Americans” claim to respect than any flag, Constitution, or nationalistic sentiment.

 

[dudmuck]

What is meant by saying you love your country?

Does it mean you love:
-The government?
-The people inhabiting a particular area of land?
-The land itself?
-The culture (language, entertainment, beliefs, etc.)

All things considered, I don't believe there is anyone who would say they love any of these things in total, or to the exclusion of all other examples throughout the world. It seems reasonable to presume that there are things you like about your culture, for instance, and things that you do not like about it. But that could also be said about many other cultures. For instance, most people enjoy some of the food popular in their culture, but not all of them; but they also like some Italian foods, and not all of them. I think this could be said of any aspect of a "country" such that the expression does not seem to mean anything particular at all.

I suspect it may just refer to an emotional state that is connected with a nebulous notion of "the country". Precisely what constitutes the country is difficult to define. What do we really mean? Where does this idea come from? Did it originate within ourselves, or is it just something we picked up from the culture itself?

In the case of my country, I love its creed, the ideals it was founded on and that it aspires to fulfill. I love that we have a heritage that is inclusive of anyone who also believes in our ideals and wants to peacefully and legally become a part of working toward them.

Creed, heritage, and this aspiration are really just thoughts in one's mind, are they not? What defines this heritage? The land? The governmental construct? Perhaps the heritage you speak of is the creed and the aspiration...

But is there really some unifying creed and aspiration that unites this particular population of people, to the exclusion of all others? Judging by these boards and the screaming, angry people we see at rallies, I would say this is just an object of imagination - it does not exist. Even something like the Constitution - the tangible, defining object of this creed - there is much debate about interpretation, application, and even validity. So what is meant by the word "country"? What defines it? What does it include, and what does it not include?

Where you want to steer this is quite clear.
You hate nationalists, you hate good, REAL American people whom respect American culture, tradition and history, you hate good quality folks that prefer to live among likeminded good quality folks, you probably hate the English language. You hate America’s founding principles, you hate Christianity, the U.S. Constitution and the U.S. flag. We totally get it bud.
Again....I KNOW YOUR TYPE.

And your type is well known.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I’ve always wondered how you can love your country and yet want to “fundamentally transform” your country.

On the other hand, I wonder how people can love their country and still see many problems.

Imagine you're a Communist and you love your country, wouldn't you want it to become a Communist state?

Imagine you had a child who was gay, you love that child, but you'd prefer they weren't gay.

You are talking about "conditional love". Are you still going to love that child after your "fundamental transformation" efforts fail? Are you going to respect that child for being gay or are you going to undermine his will and right to live as a homosexual?

On your first example, the communists loves what his country can potentially be and not necessarily continue to love the country if the "fundamental transformation" fails.

This is the problem the thread was designed to point out. “Country” must mean political system, government, etc. when used in this context. It is the only thing that distinguishes this “country” definitively from any other. Culture has a more nebulous border, people vary widely, and land on one side of the border is exactly the same as on the other side.

So we’re talking about government, and government is not worthy of love. That’s why people point to flags and Constitutions, values and ideals, when you ask them what they love about their country - because these things represent wonderful imaginings of what could be, a potentiality. But what’s really there, what really exists, is a coercive, violent system of domination run by gangsters, and this they do not love.

So they say they love their country, but want to change it. They are talking about two different things, but haven’t thought it through enough to realize it. They love the ideal, the potential of what life on their land, with their people, could be; but they want to change the reality because it is far from that ideal.

And it always will be far from that ideal, until they earnestly seek to understand the natural law this “country” was founded upon; and recognize that even those (perhaps) well-meaning founding fathers went astray from this law when they established a nation in its name.

 

[Clementine]

Does it mean you love:
-The government?
-The people inhabiting a particular area of land?
-The land itself?
-The culture (language, entertainment, beliefs, etc.)

All things considered, I don't believe there is anyone who would say they love any of these things in total, or to the exclusion of all other examples throughout the world. It seems reasonable to presume that there are things you like about your culture, for instance, and things that you do not like about it. But that could also be said about many other cultures. For instance, most people enjoy some of the food popular in their culture, but not all of them; but they also like some Italian foods, and not all of them. I think this could be said of any aspect of a "country" such that the expression does not seem to mean anything particular at all.

I suspect it may just refer to an emotional state that is connected with a nebulous notion of "the country". Precisely what constitutes the country is difficult to define. What do we really mean? Where does this idea come from? Did it originate within ourselves, or is it just something we picked up from the culture itself?[/QUOTE]



It's about appreciating the constitution and Bill of Rights. Our founding fathers lived through dictatorships. They longed for a place where you could speak your mind, make a living the way you want and worship, or not worship, as you saw fit. It was about having inalienable rights that no government could take away.

Loving this country means loving liberty and freedom. It's that simple. When you look at countries run by dictators where only one religion is allowed, speech is controlled and your every move is watched, you can understand how good it is to live where we don't walk on eggshells everyday, fearful of a government that would imprison or even kill you for not obeying like a blind sheep.

People came here to escape tyranny. They came so they could choose their own paths. They came to openly worship. They came so they could speak their minds without fear of retribution. They came so they could enjoy privacy in their own homes. They came because of an innate need to truly feel free. They came because they didn't want to live in fear of government or evil. We can protect ourselves here instead of being at the mercy of evil. There are all the things the leftists seek to take away from each of us.

Too many don't understand what it means to love this country. Those people are dangerous because they are willing to sell everyone out because they believe the Hitler-esque talk about a caring government wanting to keep us safe.



The anti-America idiots are a huge danger to our freedom right now because they will vote for those who seek to become tyrants. Opposing speech is slowly being deemed hate speech and outlawed. Our right to protect ourselves is constantly under attack. Our education system has been hijacked to remove the truth about history, particularly the dangers of socialism, communism and Marxism. Our politicians attack Christianity but defend Islam.

And idiots march the streets demonstrating their total ignorance of what makes this country great. People don't flock here for the leftists policies. They come, or used to, for the opportunities and freedom.

Dumb asses don't get it. Each generation brings more puppets that are willing to try socialism again and always claim it will be different this time. It never is and never will be.

 

[Unkotare]

What is meant by saying you love your country?

Does it mean you love:
-The government?
-The people inhabiting a particular area of land?
-The land itself?
-The culture (language, entertainment, beliefs, etc.)....

Yes.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

It's about appreciating the constitution and Bill of Rights. Our founding fathers lived through dictatorships. They longed for a place where you could speak your mind, make a living the way you want and worship, or not worship, as you saw fit. It was about having inalienable rights that no government could take away.

Loving this country means loving liberty and freedom. It's that simple. When you look at countries run by dictators where only one religion is allowed, speech is controlled and your every move is watched, you can understand how good it is to live where we don't walk on eggshells everyday, fearful of a government that would imprison or even kill you for not obeying like a blind sheep.

People came here to escape tyranny. They came so they could choose their own paths. They came to openly worship. They came so they could speak their minds without fear of retribution. They came so they could enjoy privacy in their own homes. They came because of an innate need to truly feel free. They came because they didn't want to live in fear of government or evil. We can protect ourselves here instead of being at the mercy of evil. There are all the things the leftists seek to take away from each of us.

Too many don't understand what it means to love this country. Those people are dangerous because they are willing to sell everyone out because they believe the Hitler-esque talk about a caring government wanting to keep us safe.



The anti-America idiots are a huge danger to our freedom right now because they will vote for those who seek to become tyrants. Opposing speech is slowly being deemed hate speech and outlawed. Our right to protect ourselves is constantly under attack. Our education system has been hijacked to remove the truth about history, particularly the dangers of socialism, communism and Marxism. Our politicians attack Christianity but defend Islam.

And idiots march the streets demonstrating their total ignorance of what makes this country great. People don't flock here for the leftists policies. They come, or used to, for the opportunities and freedom.

Dumb asses don't get it. Each generation brings more puppets that are willing to try socialism again and always claim it will be different this time. It never is and never will be.

Thank you Clementine. Love the meme, by the way. Imagine the nerve of that woman; deliberately poking at the unjust wound opened by numerous infringements upon personal liberty. And she says "WE " as if she will be amongst those coming to take away the guns, but this is not so. She will be binge-watching Sex in the City while armed governmental thugs do her dirty work. If she is not willing to come get them herself, what right does she have to ask someone else to do it? And this is a pointed illustration of the overall problem...

You and I share fundamental values, and I agree with much of what you've said. Though I would argue that you have not taken your values to their logical conclusion.

If loving this country means loving liberty and freedom, then how can you abide a system of coercion that claims authority over your body and mind? Your body, by claiming a portion of the fruit of your labor under the threat of violence called taxation. Your mind, by claiming which states of consciousness you are permitted to experience via drug laws. How can you say "You have no right to take my guns" but still support governmental authority on other matters? Government makes a claim to authority, regardless of how those people get there, or your "right" to change who they are every now and then. The people occupying the seats of power within this institution have no valid claim to any authority, no matter how many people vote to the contrary. If you believe they do, you definitively do not love liberty and freedom.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I’ve always wondered how you can love your country and yet want to “fundamentally transform” your country.

On the other hand, I wonder how people can love their country and still see many problems.

Imagine you're a Communist and you love your country, wouldn't you want it to become a Communist state?

Imagine you had a child who was gay, you love that child, but you'd prefer they weren't gay.

You are talking about "conditional love". Are you still going to love that child after your "fundamental transformation" efforts fail? Are you going to respect that child for being gay or are you going to undermine his will and right to live as a homosexual?

On your first example, the communists loves what his country can potentially be and not necessarily continue to love the country if the "fundamental transformation" fails.

I've asked this question before and everyone skirted around it, trying to avoid it.

What percentage of your country do you have to love in order to love your country?

Do you love Democrats? Do you love the inner city ghettos? Do you love the murder rate? Do you love the rape? Do you love all of the bad things in the US?

You never, ever complain about stuff?

This is the problem with your argument. You'll complain about things, and then say you love the country. Then say others don't love the country because they complain about stuff.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I’ve always wondered how you can love your country and yet want to “fundamentally transform” your country.

On the other hand, I wonder how people can love their country and still see many problems.

Imagine you're a Communist and you love your country, wouldn't you want it to become a Communist state?

Imagine you had a child who was gay, you love that child, but you'd prefer they weren't gay.

You are talking about "conditional love". Are you still going to love that child after your "fundamental transformation" efforts fail? Are you going to respect that child for being gay or are you going to undermine his will and right to live as a homosexual?

On your first example, the communists loves what his country can potentially be and not necessarily continue to love the country if the "fundamental transformation" fails.

This is the problem the thread was designed to point out. “Country” must mean political system, government, etc. when used in this context. It is the only thing that distinguishes this “country” definitively from any other. Culture has a more nebulous border, people vary widely, and land on one side of the border is exactly the same as on the other side.

So we’re talking about government, and government is not worthy of love. That’s why people point to flags and Constitutions, values and ideals, when you ask them what they love about their country - because these things represent wonderful imaginings of what could be, a potentiality. But what’s really there, what really exists, is a coercive, violent system of domination run by gangsters, and this they do not love.

So they say they love their country, but want to change it. They are talking about two different things, but haven’t thought it through enough to realize it. They love the ideal, the potential of what life on their land, with their people, could be; but they want to change the reality because it is far from that ideal.

And it always will be far from that ideal, until they earnestly seek to understand the natural law this “country” was founded upon; and recognize that even those (perhaps) well-meaning founding fathers went astray from this law when they established a nation in its name.

No, if you were talking about government, you'd say "do you love your government"

Country is something much more than government, in case you hadn't noticed.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I’ve always wondered how you can love your country and yet want to “fundamentally transform” your country.

On the other hand, I wonder how people can love their country and still see many problems.

Imagine you're a Communist and you love your country, wouldn't you want it to become a Communist state?

Imagine you had a child who was gay, you love that child, but you'd prefer they weren't gay.

You are talking about "conditional love". Are you still going to love that child after your "fundamental transformation" efforts fail? Are you going to respect that child for being gay or are you going to undermine his will and right to live as a homosexual?

On your first example, the communists loves what his country can potentially be and not necessarily continue to love the country if the "fundamental transformation" fails.

This is the problem the thread was designed to point out. “Country” must mean political system, government, etc. when used in this context. It is the only thing that distinguishes this “country” definitively from any other. Culture has a more nebulous border, people vary widely, and land on one side of the border is exactly the same as on the other side.

So we’re talking about government, and government is not worthy of love. That’s why people point to flags and Constitutions, values and ideals, when you ask them what they love about their country - because these things represent wonderful imaginings of what could be, a potentiality. But what’s really there, what really exists, is a coercive, violent system of domination run by gangsters, and this they do not love.

So they say they love their country, but want to change it. They are talking about two different things, but haven’t thought it through enough to realize it. They love the ideal, the potential of what life on their land, with their people, could be; but they want to change the reality because it is far from that ideal.

And it always will be far from that ideal, until they earnestly seek to understand the natural law this “country” was founded upon; and recognize that even those (perhaps) well-meaning founding fathers went astray from this law when they established a nation in its name.

No, if you were talking about government, you'd say "do you love your government"

Country is something much more than government, in case you hadn't noticed.

Yes, but as you have noted, the other considerations about “country” are too nebulous or laden with variables or lack of exclusivity to pecisely define it. The only thing that clearly defines it is the ruling class. That is what the flag represents - the Republic. That is what the borders define - their claimed territory of authority.

That’s why when people say they love their country, they are referring to objects of imagination - values, ideals, potentialities. They associate these ideas with an obscure notion of “country”, but it’s pure dissonance. There is no logical basis for limiting any of that to this patch of land claimed as the property of a particular ruling class, or the people they unjustly burden with their fallacious authority. The connection is purposefully instilled via indoctrination; that’s the only reason why it’s there.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I’ve always wondered how you can love your country and yet want to “fundamentally transform” your country.

On the other hand, I wonder how people can love their country and still see many problems.

Imagine you're a Communist and you love your country, wouldn't you want it to become a Communist state?

Imagine you had a child who was gay, you love that child, but you'd prefer they weren't gay.

You are talking about "conditional love". Are you still going to love that child after your "fundamental transformation" efforts fail? Are you going to respect that child for being gay or are you going to undermine his will and right to live as a homosexual?

On your first example, the communists loves what his country can potentially be and not necessarily continue to love the country if the "fundamental transformation" fails.

This is the problem the thread was designed to point out. “Country” must mean political system, government, etc. when used in this context. It is the only thing that distinguishes this “country” definitively from any other. Culture has a more nebulous border, people vary widely, and land on one side of the border is exactly the same as on the other side.

So we’re talking about government, and government is not worthy of love. That’s why people point to flags and Constitutions, values and ideals, when you ask them what they love about their country - because these things represent wonderful imaginings of what could be, a potentiality. But what’s really there, what really exists, is a coercive, violent system of domination run by gangsters, and this they do not love.

So they say they love their country, but want to change it. They are talking about two different things, but haven’t thought it through enough to realize it. They love the ideal, the potential of what life on their land, with their people, could be; but they want to change the reality because it is far from that ideal.

And it always will be far from that ideal, until they earnestly seek to understand the natural law this “country” was founded upon; and recognize that even those (perhaps) well-meaning founding fathers went astray from this law when they established a nation in its name.

No, if you were talking about government, you'd say "do you love your government"

Country is something much more than government, in case you hadn't noticed.

Yes, but as you have noted, the other considerations about “country” are too nebulous or laden with variables or lack of exclusivity to pecisely define it. The only thing that clearly defines it is the ruling class. That is what the flag represents - the Republic. That is what the borders define - their claimed territory of authority.

That’s why when people say they love their country, they are referring to objects of imagination - values, ideals, potentialities. They associate these ideas with an obscure notion of “country”, but it’s pure dissonance. There is no logical basis for limiting any of that to this patch of land claimed as the property of a particular ruling class, or the people they unjustly burden with their fallacious authority. The connection is purposefully instilled via indoctrination; that’s the only reason why it’s there.

Isn't that the whole point of this?

People come on here and say "I love my country, I'm a patriot" but the reality is it's all obscure.

It's an emotional thing.

The right tend to use it because it doesn't pin down to one thing, they can say it, they can demand people follow it with the flag and the anthem etc, but it doesn't mean much.