What happens in a place where the criminal's are empowered, and the citizen's are to afraid to help keep order.

[Crepitus]

Not sure about the rights of citizens to bear arms in this country, but what is clear to me is that the criminal's have them, and they aren't afraid to attack in broad daylight.

More video's to follow.

We must retain the rights to be armed as good citizen's in America or we will begin to experience this same type of gang lawlessness across the board in this country, and that is unacceptable.

We have enough exposure to gang violence now, and it doesn't need to get worse.

We must protect the peace, and do our parts when the situation calls upon us.

These two guards should have been surrounded by citizen's with arms who would have joined into the fight for their survival until help could arrive. No excuse in this type of lawlessness to be normal in a civilized society, but there it is right before our eyes to study.

Now prove to us that either of those things happens with any regularity in this country.

There are over 1 million serious successful crimes reported every single year in the US, according to the DOJ.
That includes rapes, robberies, murders, etc.
So why would anyone not want to be armed?

So in other words you chances of being a victim of a serious crime in any given year is 0.003%?

Aren't you one of th the who said he won't taken the vaccine for a virus with a 2.0% fatality rate?

Do.you not see the dichotomy here?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Not sure about the rights of citizens to bear arms in this country, but what is clear to me is that the criminal's have them, and they aren't afraid to attack in broad daylight.

More video's to follow.

We must retain the rights to be armed as good citizen's in America or we will begin to experience this same type of gang lawlessness across the board in this country, and that is unacceptable.

We have enough exposure to gang violence now, and it doesn't need to get worse.

We must protect the peace, and do our parts when the situation calls upon us.

These two guards should have been surrounded by citizen's with arms who would have joined into the fight for their survival until help could arrive. No excuse in this type of lawlessness to be normal in a civilized society, but there it is right before our eyes to study.

South Africa has become a war zone shithole since the negroes were GIVEN majority rule

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I do NOT believe in armed police

They exist. How can you not believe in them?

 

[beagle9]

You doggone straight I would want citizen's involved in a situation like this, because they could have helped to save these two men's lives if they didn't make it, and that's exactly what the criminal gang knew or they know what they attack the system in these ways. So you have no confidence in good armed citizen's helping when they see two law abiding overwhelmed armored car citizen's being chased down and possibly killed like what may have taken place in the video ?? Remember these two were being chased for quite a while, and still no help arrived or became present.

That response time is a killer when the action goes on for this long with no help in any form arriving to help out. It reeks of lawlessness, and a country that might be on the brink with this kind of stuff.

The cell phone was used when they were able to gather themselves for a moment to do so in the action. Your comment was ridiculous after watching what the two were going through.

Show me the last time this sort of thing has happened in this country. Lawlessness is not solved with armed citizens driving about recklessly and spraying bullets out of their driver's side window. We don't live in the Wild Wild West anymore kid.

And you're doggone stupid if you believe we do.

Where have you been ? If not mistaken the latest death was of the little 7 year old girl in the McDonald's drive through with her dad, and yes bullets were spraying out of the windows of a car when it happened.

Sad thing is that the left have gotten the citizenry to scared to take action in the stopping of the car if possible, and if attempted to intervene it would be in hopes to do a citizen's arrest before the killers get away to kill again or the lack of response aids in the killers to get away clean... Sadly the killers in many cases get away to kill the innocent again, and it has become a serious problem in many areas sadly for the citizen's, and now even for law enforcement.

No excuse in any drive by shooting somehow being something that the police only should handle these days, otherwise if armed good citizen's are abundant in the immediate area, then the vehicle should never be able to get in and out of the area with immunity like that, but we see what has taken place over time now, and it's only getting worse.

The guy's back in the eighties who started riding the subway train's in New York finally took action as the "Guardian Angels" because the police response time was inadequate. I think they are still doing it, but not sure on that.

To me, the proper action in a situation like this is to follow a drive by shooter at a safe distance, call 911 on your smartphone, put it on speaker and describe the car and its location to the best of your ability. Sadly, there are not too many instances with drive-by shootings where a concerned citizen is in his car and ready to move.

What you do NOT do is fire out your window or attempt to pull the car over or knock it off the road. And like police are trained to do, you abandon the chase in most situations if the car way over the speed limit and driving recklessly. Doing so puts even more citizens at risk. This isn't a Bruce Willis movie. The average good guy with a gun is not trained in this sort of combat, and outcomes can be horrific.

Yes, the Guardian Angels still exist. They are NOT armed.

Home | Guardian Angels

guardianangels.org

The original and main Guardian Angels activity is "safety patrol" in which members walk the streets or ride transit. ... Safety Patrol members are prohibited from carrying weapons and are physically searched by each other before patrolling.

Founder: Curtis Sliwa
Location: New York City, New York, United States
Focus: Public Safety
Founded: 1979

In general I agree.
The exception would be if those transporting money legally are being attacked and about to be killed.
Then it would be appropriate to get out of your vehicle behind the attackers, and fire a few shots to make them realize their vulnerability, and leave.
The point being to save lives, not to try to make an arrest, which is the mistake most police seem to make.

Civilians fire a few shots eh ? This would make the bad guy's feel vulnerable and leave ? Uh nope that ain't happening. If anything the bad guy's will abandon the focus on the armored truck, and begin to focus on the one's attempting to stop them from attacking the armored vehicle. If you engage, then it must be due to the emergency at hand, where as an innocent life is about to be taken. My theory is that if there were enough responsible citizen's with guns watching the senario unfold, and they were able to show a significant hopefully combined counter force if nessesary, then not only might it save the two guards lives, but it would send the message to other criminal gang's that the tactic used to attack in broad day light because they think that the citizen's are helpless or to afraid to respond, will change their ways of thinking in such ways.

If a person is alone, and they think that no combined help is going to materialize, then it would be best to just help by staying back at a safe distance, get on the phone with law enforcement, and only move in if the officer's are about to be executed in the street. Then one must still operate at a safe distance unless trying to be a hero which is ok, and most importantly making sure that your fire power is significant for the job.

A crowd of citizen's looking to help is best, but if going it alone one must be ready to die for the cause of saving innocent lives if need be.

 

[beagle9]

Where the hell is the police??? Had this been in the U.S. our cops would be there a lot sooner...... er well maybe not now since they are all quitting and being defunded in some places

Probably what happened there prior, and now we are heading down the same path.

Nah - Nobody is interested in "defunding the police". That's a phrase that liberals NEVER should have used.

Improve training? YES
National database on certain complaints against cops such as excessive force? YES
Re-allocate funds from police to other agencies who may be better suited to respond in certain situations? YES
More funding for mental health issues? YES

But not to worry - NO city wants to be without a well-trained, responsive police force.

Yes, all things that work if being implemented by the right people for the right reason's. Trust in this country has been almost destroyed, and that makes everything suspect in most citizen's minds.

I hate to say it, but it's the God's honest truth. Donald Trump did more to undermine trust in this country and its institutions than any president in modern history.

Well I believe you are wrong, but we can respectfully disagree. Liberalism is the biggest undermining force ever to become an undermining force in this country, because although it's supposedly based on the ideas that everyone is equal regardless of, and that they (liberals) are somehow the champion's of humanity, I think that they miss the boat dock by a mile because they are attempting to play God in the situations.

Liberals act as if they are wiser than God, but worse is that they are in the extreme denial of God in which leaves the door open for them to assume the role themselves, and that's when it all goes to hell.

Everyone agrees that we all are human beings born with differences, and that we had to create (after learning the word of God), a system in which those differences could be placed into a fine tune with one another if weren't evil or bad. Of course the liberals found out that not all are willing to be fine tuned into a liberal chaotic mess that will end up causing them to skip a beat in life, and all because of the liberal idealism that is generally anti-God these days (just look at what liberalism supports).

Especially in these extremist days when there are children at stake in the game, where as no one should want to bargain with their children's lives in order to seemingly just go along with a bunch of bullcrap that is known to be big time wrong.

So chaos is what the left is sowing IMO, and it eventually leads to what third world countries look like, and that should be unacceptable to most level headed American's. To be a more balanced individual, one must possess in ones make up a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and alot of this, and alot of that. What we are seeing these days is a total meltdown.

Liberalism is standing out, because it has become the most extreme and radical now, so they have to own it.

What is "liberalism"?
To me, liberalism means defending individual liberties over creeping government corruption.
To me, that means things like public health care.
But not things like federal gun control.
So which party is liberal then?

Well both parties may deal in some form of liberalism or liberalist ideals to some extent or degree, but liberalism was converted over time into a force that many find hard to deal with or to understand anymore.

 

[beagle9]

You doggone straight I would want citizen's involved in a situation like this, because they could have helped to save these two men's lives if they didn't make it, and that's exactly what the criminal gang knew or they know what they attack the system in these ways. So you have no confidence in good armed citizen's helping when they see two law abiding overwhelmed armored car citizen's being chased down and possibly killed like what may have taken place in the video ?? Remember these two were being chased for quite a while, and still no help arrived or became present.

That response time is a killer when the action goes on for this long with no help in any form arriving to help out. It reeks of lawlessness, and a country that might be on the brink with this kind of stuff.

The cell phone was used when they were able to gather themselves for a moment to do so in the action. Your comment was ridiculous after watching what the two were going through.

Show me the last time this sort of thing has happened in this country. Lawlessness is not solved with armed citizens driving about recklessly and spraying bullets out of their driver's side window. We don't live in the Wild Wild West anymore kid.

And you're doggone stupid if you believe we do.

I would agree that a high speed rolling gun battle is not the place for other armed citizens to get involved. Its a bit too much confusion with what was going on and a high probability of bystanders getting hit plus it would involve a car chase which isnt going to happen.
However there are plenty of time's where the situation warrants civilians being armed to defend each other.
Had this incident happened in the U.S. where citizens were carrying, I highly doubt that any of them would be slinging bullets around in a haphazard way, most people would have more common sense. Most people who have any kind of training know you need to have a good target before you go firing your weapon... especially in a public place. More people would first be on their phones calling police initially.

Finally - a little SANITY enters the thread. Somehow I think our Beagle has watched one too many action adventure movies.

The only problem I had with your comments is that you assume armed citizens are well trained. Honestly, far too many are not. You can Constitutional Carry in about half the states without either a license OR training.

26 States Don’t Test Your Shooting Skills Before Issuing a Concealed Carry Permit

A review of licensing requirements shows that in more than half the country, applicants are not required to demonstrate their shooting ability.

www.thetrace.org

Constitutional carry - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, there should be more training. I would mind that to go along with a carry permit

I'll go along with that, but being a hunter all my life, and having owned and operated guns all my life, I think that I would have been up for the challenge in the situation if it were to arise. Many successful soldiers during the wars were hunter gatherers, self reliant, and tough enough when called upon to serve. I'd say they were the backbone of American strength in the infantry lines, and we're also protector's of the innocent or weaker amongst the lines.

When it comes to guns, it's amazing how much we can agree on when we lower the temperature just a tad. It's an emotional issue. Obviously you and Yarddog have more experience than most including me. I went through several trainings both public and private after I got my Glock for home protection but don't carry concealed or otherwise in public. I also practice at the range minimally every other month. Just don't fancy myself as some sort of badass vigilante. And I still believe in cops.

I do NOT believe in armed police.
Every time I see them, they are almost always abusive.
Its always something, like illegal search without a warrant, shooting or tasing illegally, writing tickets on the victim, illegal asset forfeiture, lying, confusing the victim and criminal, arriving way too late, writing tickets on what they did not even see, etc.

The cops seem far worse to me than anyone else could possibly be.
I think we should just have more Neighborhood Watch.

Hmmm, if you could just control other's around you, otherwise those that force police officers to have to be armed, and force officer's to have to tase them, then the world would be this utopic paradise you hope for, but you can't control those around you, and therefore all you can do is stay out of encounter's with the law, just like hundreds of thousands do as they go along doing the right things in life. Oh and keeping one's own family members from being stupid is the worst one of all.

In a world where we have video after video giving ample reason's why officer's are armed and trained, how can we all of a sudden have all this bullcrap where people are attempting to lie and make the majority of police out to be these evil people who are just out to abuse and kill people ?? What this nation had best get a handle on, is the lies that are causing innocent people to lose their lives, because there is an agenda going on in which is intent on breaking down law and order for a bigger plan or for a take over to go on after the plan has been implemented.

Wake up America.

 

[beagle9]

Not sure about the rights of citizens to bear arms in this country, but what is clear to me is that the criminal's have them, and they aren't afraid to attack in broad daylight.

More video's to follow.

We must retain the rights to be armed as good citizen's in America or we will begin to experience this same type of gang lawlessness across the board in this country, and that is unacceptable.

We have enough exposure to gang violence now, and it doesn't need to get worse.

We must protect the peace, and do our parts when the situation calls upon us.

These two guards should have been surrounded by citizen's with arms who would have joined into the fight for their survival until help could arrive. No excuse in this type of lawlessness to be normal in a civilized society, but there it is right before our eyes to study.

South Africa has become a war zone shithole since the negroes were GIVEN majority rule

Has nothing to do with skin color, but everything to do with culture, religious belief's whether Muslim or other, and tribalism etc. It works for them if that's what they want, but it's not what we want, so a study of our situations must be conducted.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What happens in a place where the criminal's are empowered, and the citizen's are to afraid to help keep order.

No, this is what happens when conservatives contrive ridiculous strawman fallacies.

One cannot expect ‘clean debate’ when the thread premise is dishonest sophistry.

 

[beagle9]

What happens in a place where the criminal's are empowered, and the citizen's are to afraid to help keep order.

No, this is what happens when conservatives contrive ridiculous strawman fallacies.

One cannot expect ‘clean debate’ when the thread premise is dishonest sophistry.

No one asked you to troll the thread, so beat it before you dirty up the place.

 

[DrLove]

You doggone straight I would want citizen's involved in a situation like this, because they could have helped to save these two men's lives if they didn't make it, and that's exactly what the criminal gang knew or they know what they attack the system in these ways. So you have no confidence in good armed citizen's helping when they see two law abiding overwhelmed armored car citizen's being chased down and possibly killed like what may have taken place in the video ?? Remember these two were being chased for quite a while, and still no help arrived or became present.

That response time is a killer when the action goes on for this long with no help in any form arriving to help out. It reeks of lawlessness, and a country that might be on the brink with this kind of stuff.

The cell phone was used when they were able to gather themselves for a moment to do so in the action. Your comment was ridiculous after watching what the two were going through.

Show me the last time this sort of thing has happened in this country. Lawlessness is not solved with armed citizens driving about recklessly and spraying bullets out of their driver's side window. We don't live in the Wild Wild West anymore kid.

And you're doggone stupid if you believe we do.

Where have you been ? If not mistaken the latest death was of the little 7 year old girl in the McDonald's drive through with her dad, and yes bullets were spraying out of the windows of a car when it happened.

Sad thing is that the left have gotten the citizenry to scared to take action in the stopping of the car if possible, and if attempted to intervene it would be in hopes to do a citizen's arrest before the killers get away to kill again or the lack of response aids in the killers to get away clean... Sadly the killers in many cases get away to kill the innocent again, and it has become a serious problem in many areas sadly for the citizen's, and now even for law enforcement.

No excuse in any drive by shooting somehow being something that the police only should handle these days, otherwise if armed good citizen's are abundant in the immediate area, then the vehicle should never be able to get in and out of the area with immunity like that, but we see what has taken place over time now, and it's only getting worse.

The guy's back in the eighties who started riding the subway train's in New York finally took action as the "Guardian Angels" because the police response time was inadequate. I think they are still doing it, but not sure on that.

To me, the proper action in a situation like this is to follow a drive by shooter at a safe distance, call 911 on your smartphone, put it on speaker and describe the car and its location to the best of your ability. Sadly, there are not too many instances with drive-by shootings where a concerned citizen is in his car and ready to move.

What you do NOT do is fire out your window or attempt to pull the car over or knock it off the road. And like police are trained to do, you abandon the chase in most situations if the car way over the speed limit and driving recklessly. Doing so puts even more citizens at risk. This isn't a Bruce Willis movie. The average good guy with a gun is not trained in this sort of combat, and outcomes can be horrific.

Yes, the Guardian Angels still exist. They are NOT armed.

Home | Guardian Angels

guardianangels.org

The original and main Guardian Angels activity is "safety patrol" in which members walk the streets or ride transit. ... Safety Patrol members are prohibited from carrying weapons and are physically searched by each other before patrolling.

Founder: Curtis Sliwa
Location: New York City, New York, United States
Focus: Public Safety
Founded: 1979

In general I agree.
The exception would be if those transporting money legally are being attacked and about to be killed.
Then it would be appropriate to get out of your vehicle behind the attackers, and fire a few shots to make them realize their vulnerability, and leave.
The point being to save lives, not to try to make an arrest, which is the mistake most police seem to make.

Civilians fire a few shots eh ? This would make the bad guy's feel vulnerable and leave ? Uh nope that ain't happening. If anything the bad guy's will abandon the focus on the armored truck, and begin to focus on the one's attempting to stop them from attacking the armored vehicle. If you engage, then it must be due to the emergency at hand, where as an innocent life is about to be taken. My theory is that if there were enough responsible citizen's with guns watching the senario unfold, and they were able to show a significant hopefully combined counter force if nessesary, then not only might it save the two guards lives, but it would send the message to other criminal gang's that the tactic used to attack in broad day light because they think that the citizen's are helpless or to afraid to respond, will change their ways of thinking in such ways.

If a person is alone, and they think that no combined help is going to materialize, then it would be best to just help by staying back at a safe distance, get on the phone with law enforcement, and only move in if the officer's are about to be executed in the street. Then one must still operate at a safe distance unless trying to be a hero which is ok, and most importantly making sure that your fire power is significant for the job.

A crowd of citizen's looking to help is best, but if going it alone one must be ready to die for the cause of saving innocent lives if need be.

Why so dramatic all the time? Life is good. You need a week on Maui. Surf, snorkel, hang with the locals in Lahaina, enjoy the eye candy, drink a few local IPAs and eat fish tacos.

 

[harmonica]

These two guards should have been surrounded by citizen's with arms who would have joined into the fight for their survival until help could arrive. No excuse in this type of lawlessness to be normal in a civilized society, but there it is right before our eyes to study.

I can't think of a time in US history that this didn't happen...

the Dems and BLM LOVE criminals and hate law-order....criminals are their HEROES!!!!!!!
in his grad uniform!!!! HAHAHAHAHAH
View attachment 486281

HONORING a criminal!!!!!!

St. Louis aldermen pass resolution remembering Anthony Lamar Smith, angering police

The city's top officials embraced Smith's mother, Annie, and her husband during Friday's board meeting.

www.stltoday.com

look at THAT!! criminality and the American FLAG!!!
View attachment 486283

They did it with Civil War losers also..It will pass..

hahahhahahahhaah
1. very different
a. over a hundred years ago
b. it was a civil war--like the Vietnam War-really, no criminals on either side
etc
2. that doesn't refute my point

Small point, but the US was criminal in Vietnam war.
US and international laws says it was for the UN to decide, not the US.
We stopped the 1953 plebiscite by backing illegal Diem coup.
Ho Chi Minh was a hero to all Vietnamese, for defeating the French.

....it was wrong for the US to get involved....I don't know if it was criminal....we thought we we helping to keep people '''free''/etc

 

[danielpalos]

...blame gun lovers!

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

[beagle9]

...blame gun lovers!

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Yep, and that's what is nessesary to keep the security and freedom in a free state. Regulated could mean "Organized", where as it is to do everything decent and in "order".... If everything fails, then the right of the people to bear arms is the last defense against tyranny. Even so, in that situation it needs to be organized and in order.

 

[danielpalos]

...blame gun lovers!

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Yep, and that's what is nessesary to keep the security and freedom in a free state. Regulated could mean "Organized", where as it is to do everything decent and in "order".... If everything fails, then the right of the people to bear arms is the last defense against tyranny. Even so, in that situation it needs to be organized and in order.

No, it can't. That is just right wing fantasy, and propaganda, and an appeal to ignorance of the law.

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Well regulated must be defined by Congress and prescribed for the militia of the United States.

 

[Tax Man]

Not sure about the rights of citizens to bear arms in this country, but what is clear to me is that the criminal's have them, and they aren't afraid to attack in broad daylight.

More video's to follow.

We must retain the rights to be armed as good citizen's in America or we will begin to experience this same type of gang lawlessness across the board in this country, and that is unacceptable.

We have enough exposure to gang violence now, and it doesn't need to get worse.

We must protect the peace, and do our parts when the situation calls upon us.

These two guards should have been surrounded by citizen's with arms who would have joined into the fight for their survival until help could arrive. No excuse in this type of lawlessness to be normal in a civilized society, but there it is right before our eyes to study.

Citizens do not care about police men being killed.