What happens when the trainwreck doesn't materialize?

[Staidhup]

Don't be so quick to dismiss the train wreck, it's gaining momentum, my hope is I won't be alive to feel the full impact. Keep that can kicking game going, see where it gets you.

 

[Claudette]

Nothing the Govt has ever run has been cheaper or better and you want the Govt to run your HC??


You want your HC run by a bunch of beurocrats in DC??

You have got to be insane my friend.

Medicare proves your premise wrong.

Tell that to the people who can't get appointments due to the growing number of doctors that refuse to accept Medicare patients.

Medicare is just a price control system which inevitably leads to supply shortages.

Yup. I know Doctors who won't take either Medicare or Medicaid because there is simply too much red tape and paperwork not to mention they don't make the money they should.

Oh yeah. I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see that train wreck thats headed out way. Its called the ACA and it will be anything but affordable to anyone who buys insurance or has beni's. Everyone costs will be going up.

The only winners will be those "subsidized" by we the taxpayer.

Anyone out there who wants to pay for someone elses hc be my fucking guest. To bad the rest of us have no say.

Hope all those Dem idiots who passed the POS bill drop the fuck dead.

It also amazes me all those who have waivers and you can bet Congress won't be using the ACA.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Nothing the Govt has ever run has been cheaper or better and you want the Govt to run your HC??


You want your HC run by a bunch of beurocrats in DC??

You have got to be insane my friend.

Medicare proves your premise wrong.

35% of the people in NYC are on Medicare, its a program bound to go broke and drag the country down with it

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Don't be so quick to dismiss the train wreck, it's gaining momentum, my hope is I won't be alive to feel the full impact. Keep that can kicking game going, see where it gets you.

The IRS in charge of healthcare is already a Clusterfuck from Day 1

 

[Seawytch]

Nothing the Govt has ever run has been cheaper or better and you want the Govt to run your HC??


You want your HC run by a bunch of beurocrats in DC??

You have got to be insane my friend.

Medicare proves your premise wrong.

Tell that to the people who can't get appointments due to the growing number of doctors that refuse to accept Medicare patients.

Medicare is just a price control system which inevitably leads to supply shortages.

Are you confusing Medicare with Medicaid?

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE87E15N20120815?irpc=932

 

[EriktheRed]

Look, Greenie is lying to you.

Only QHP's can be sold through the Exchanges.

To BE a QHP you MUST meet the standards set forth by said Exchange...as Greenie said 3 tiers of plans ALL covering the same things.....and they ALL have to charge the same premiums.

Here is the rub, only TWO types of people claim that 15 companies providing the same coverages and charging the SAME premium (as dictated by the Exchange) is "competition...the first is a stupid person.

Thw econd is Greenie, a fucking lisr.

Ah, we're getting somewhere now.

So what you appear to be saying is that calling it "competition" is inaccurrate if the terms are dictated in advance by those setting up the exchanges, i.e. the gov't.

So was I right?

 

[Antares]

You were right in recognizing my point, yes.

It will be interesting to watch Greenie spin the law.

Look, Greenie is lying to you.

Only QHP's can be sold through the Exchanges.

To BE a QHP you MUST meet the standards set forth by said Exchange...as Greenie said 3 tiers of plans ALL covering the same things.....and they ALL have to charge the same premiums.

Here is the rub, only TWO types of people claim that 15 companies providing the same coverages and charging the SAME premium (as dictated by the Exchange) is "competition...the first is a stupid person.

Thw econd is Greenie, a fucking lisr.

Ah, we're getting somewhere now.

So what you appear to be saying is that calling it "competition" is inaccurrate if the terms are dictated in advance by those setting up the exchanges, i.e. the gov't.

So was I right?

 

[Greenbeard]

I guess greenbeard just glosses over the lack of coverage and gets back to his talking points.
ACA is already broken and greenbeard keeps with his marching orders and ignores the 800 lb gorrilla in the room.

What lack of coverage? We're explicitly talking about people with coverage, those covered by Medi-Cal. Since California is expanding its Medicaid program and their exchange is working very well, coverage as a problem for them is largely evaporating.

The issue now is access--you have coverage, where do you go with it (particularly for Medi-Cal beneficiaries)? That's a delivery system issue and, as my post showed, they're working very hard to address it in a few different ways.

 

[Meister]

I guess greenbeard just glosses over the lack of coverage and gets back to his talking points.
ACA is already broken and greenbeard keeps with his marching orders and ignores the 800 lb gorrilla in the room.

What lack of coverage? We're explicitly talking about people with coverage, those covered by Medi-Cal. Since California is expanding its Medicaid program and their exchange is working very well, coverage as a problem for them is largely evaporating.

The issue now is access--you have coverage, where do you go with it (particularly for Medi-Cal beneficiaries)? That's a delivery system issue and, as my post showed, they're working very hard to address it in a few different ways.

I don't have as much healthcare coverage as I had last year, gb. We've already gone over that in an earlier thread.
You still can't admit that this is going to be a financial boondoggle, even your own party is talking about it.

 

[Greenbeard]

This law is unfunded, and the tax increases that it is going to cause is going to further cripple this economy.

If it were unfunded, there wouldn't be any tax increases now would there?

If this was such a wonderful law, how come it was ensured that it would not be fully implemented for over five years after it has passed.

These things take time. The ACA was designed to be largely under the control of states, which has proven to be interesting. Doing it 51 different ways was always going to take time but allowing that kind of state-level control and customization was apparently considered appealing. The decision of some states to opt for federal control muddied things.

The original House health reform bill would've been based on a national (not state-based) program and it would've been fully implemented by now. The Senate, given their obvious predilections, won out in their preference for states playing the leading role. And here we are.

Obamacare will not be fully implemented, and come the 2014 Congressional elections--it will be repealed.

No doubt. Obamacare won't survive the town halls of the summer of '09. Obamacare won't be able to scrape together sixty votes to break the filibuster in the Senate. Scott Brown's election to the Senate in January 2010 is going to kill Obamacare by making a conference bill impossible. The 2010 elections are going to choke Obamacare by defunding implementation. The Supreme Court is going to strike down the individual mandate and with it all the rest of Obamacare in 2012. Mitt Romney is going to repeal Obamacare after he beats Obama in 2012. After the 2014 election the Republicans will have the power in Congress to repeal Obamacare and have enough votes to over ride his veto.

What comes after that one? The election of Rand Paul in 2016 will finally let us repeal it?

 

[Greenbeard]

Lets just look at the Law itself....you are quiet contemptible dad.


1) IN GENERAL- With respect to the premium rate charged by a health insurance issuer for health insurance coverage offered in the individual or small group market--
`(A) such rate shall vary with respect to the particular plan or coverage involved only by--
`(i) whether such plan or coverage covers an individual or family;
`(ii) rating area, as established in accordance with paragraph (2);
`(iii) age, except that such rate shall not vary by more than 3 to 1 for adults (consistent with section 2707(c)); and
`(iv) tobacco use, except that such rate shall not vary by more than 1.5 to 1; and
`(B) such rate shall not vary with respect to the particular plan or coverage involved by any other factor not described in subparagraph (A).

See the red part? That says that premiums for a given insurance plan can't vary based on the characteristics of the individual (beyond where they live, how old they are, how many people the plan is covering, and whether the person is a smoker). That's the point of Obamacare. That means if Alice, Bob, and Charlie are the same age and Anthem is selling a bronze plan for $234 to that age cohort, that's what Anthem has to charge each of them. They can't charge Alice more based on her gender, or Charlie more based on his heart condition for the same plan.

That does not mean that Kaiser can't sell a competing bronze plan to them for $261 or that Blue can't sell another competing bronze plan for $266. Those insurers can and they are. There are going to be lots of different bronze plans, lots of different silver plans, lots of different gold plans, and lots of different platinum plans. And the premiums for them are all going to be different, even within a metal tier. The state doesn't set them, nor are they identical between competing, say, silver plans. That's how competition works. Different plans with different premiums competing for business. Get it?

Let's try an easier example. Vermont's rates were filed weeks ago. It's a tiny state so they have two primary insurers selling in their exchange, MVP and Blue Cross. Between those two insurers, six different silver plans are going to be offered, each with with a different price. An insurer's premiums across silver plans don't even have to be the same as each other, much less the same as their competitors' various plans. This isn't theoretical at this point, you can actually look at the prices insurers are asking for their various products because they're about to start selling them.

Reading comprehension is key and you need to work on that. Each of your posts is more embarrassing than the last.

 

[Trajan]

He's backing up what he's arguing with numbers and sources and they're not all ones that can be credibly claimed as "partisan".

What do you and Trajan have besides ad hom attacks? What questions aren't being answered by him?

we've had this out plenty of times, ask him, I asked him oh 2 years ago here to answer several questions as tbis thing was going forward, he said he wouldn't....

and as far as ad homs go, theres plenty in there to chew on other than my accurate description of his mindset, thats been established too.

here are some I'll throw out there;

is obamacare still deficit neutral?

will I be able to keep my current healthcare plan?

will it get more expensive?

will I have the same access?

same doctor?

Well, as much as he comes on here to talk about the law, it's not like it's incumbent on him to answer those questions for you, is it? If you know the answers yourself, then don't be coy...share with the class.


Same goes for Roo.

 

[Trajan]

is obamacare still deficit neutral?

It's more than deficit neutral; the slowing of health care spending alone has paid for the next decade of ACA spending, even before the new revenues are accounted for. That was unexpected but it's happening.

is that a yes, or no?

will I be able to keep my current healthcare plan?

What's your current plan and who decides whether you buy it or not? You or your employer?

what difference does it make, don't try that shit on me, if obamacare like a pinball bounces round and makes my present coverage and cost change, then? its changed due to obamacare, thats what we are discussing. What was promised?

will it get more expensive?

Milk will get more expensive. That's the world we live in. The question is how premium growth will compare to wage growth. The results thus far are very promising.

herrrrre we go......


again, you want to play that? fine we'll start another marathon clarification session, you can avoid trying to be pinned down, we'll see- will obamacare drive my cost up?What was promised?

will I have the same access?

same doctor?

Your doctor has autonomy to choose to accept whichever insurers he likes from one year to the next; that's how multi-payer systems work. If he doesn't like Aetna next year, choose Blue Cross. Or ask your boss.

again- will obamacare cause a change that he must react to, that will preclude me from being his costumer under his and my present paradigm? What was promised?

 

[EriktheRed]

Lets just look at the Law itself....you are quiet contemptible dad.


1) IN GENERAL- With respect to the premium rate charged by a health insurance issuer for health insurance coverage offered in the individual or small group market--
`(A) such rate shall vary with respect to the particular plan or coverage involved only by--
`(i) whether such plan or coverage covers an individual or family;
`(ii) rating area, as established in accordance with paragraph (2);
`(iii) age, except that such rate shall not vary by more than 3 to 1 for adults (consistent with section 2707(c)); and
`(iv) tobacco use, except that such rate shall not vary by more than 1.5 to 1; and
`(B) such rate shall not vary with respect to the particular plan or coverage involved by any other factor not described in subparagraph (A).

See the red part? That says that premiums for a given insurance plan can't vary based on the characteristics of the individual (beyond where they live, how old they are, how many people the plan is covering, and whether the person is a smoker). That's the point of Obamacare. That means if Alice, Bob, and Charlie are the same age and Anthem is selling a bronze plan for $234 to that age cohort, that's what Anthem has to charge each of them. They can't charge Alice more based on her gender, or Charlie more based on his heart condition for the same plan.

That does not mean that Kaiser can't sell a competing bronze plan to them for $261 or that Blue can't sell another competing bronze plan for $266. Those insurers can and they are. There are going to be lots of different bronze plans, lots of different silver plans, lots of different gold plans, and lots of different platinum plans. And the premiums for them are all going to be different, even within a metal tier. The state doesn't set them, nor are they identical between competing, say, silver plans. That's how competition works. Different plans with different premiums competing for business. Get it?

Let's try an easier example. Vermont's rates were filed weeks ago. It's a tiny state so they have two primary insurers selling in their exchange, MVP and Blue Cross. Between those two insurers, six different silver plans are going to be offered, each with with a different price. An insurer's premiums across silver plans don't even have to be the same as each other, much less the same as their competitors' various plans. This isn't theoretical at this point, you can actually look at the prices insurers are asking for their various products because they're about to start selling them.

Reading comprehension is key and you need to work on that. Each of your posts is more embarrassing than the last.

I think Roo might argue that the level of requirement that there is still means you can't rightfully call this competition.

 

[Trajan]

question- GB- has California dropped their plans for exchanges that directly enroll people in private ins. or public prgms like Medicaid?

 

[Greenbeard]

what difference does it make

If your employer is buying, then the insurance plan he chooses for you can change for any reason at all. He could even fire you! And then you won't have any coverage at all.

You pay what he chooses to make you contribute, regardless of what your plan actually costs. You get the providers in the network he chooses.

So I'm asking: who's making the decisions about what you're buying and what you're getting? If it's not you, then none of your questions can be answered by anyone other than the person actually shopping for coverage.

If you want specific answers about your coverage, then you're going to have to reveal more about it. Who's selling it, who's buying it, where is this happening, what does it cover, and where can one read the terms and conditions associated with it? I'm not your personal financial advisor but if you want individualized advice I'm going to need a lot more information.

 

[Greenbeard]

question- GB- has California dropped their plans for exchanges that directly enroll people in private ins. or public prgms like Medicaid?

Re-phrase, I don't know what you're asking.

 

[EriktheRed]

is obamacare still deficit neutral?

is that a yes, or no?








what difference does it make, don't try that shit on me, if obamacare like a pinball bounces round and makes my present coverage and cost change, then? its changed due to obamacare, thats what we are discussing. What was promised?





herrrrre we go......


again, you want to play that? fine we'll start another marathon clarification session, you can avoid trying to be pinned down, we'll see- will obamacare drive my cost up?What was promised?

Your doctor has autonomy to choose to accept whichever insurers he likes from one year to the next; that's how multi-payer systems work. If he doesn't like Aetna next year, choose Blue Cross. Or ask your boss.

again- will obamacare cause a change that he must react to, that will preclude me from being his costumer under his and my present paradigm? What was promised?

Seems to me the answers to some of these questions you're asking depend up on your particular circumstances. As for the others, you seem to already have an answer in mind.

 

[Greenbeard]

I think Roo might argue that the level of requirement that there is still means you can't rightfully call this competition.

He's under the impression that the state tells every insurer they have to sell a bronze plan at Price X, a silver plan at price Y, and a gold plan at price Z and that everybody's plan costs the same thing. He misunderstands that all Obamacare requires is that insurers sell a given plan to people at a consistent price, not that prices be consistent across plans or insurers. He's been under this misapprehension for a while (which is why he falsely believes exchanges don't engender competition) but I figured that once the actual prices came out and one could see that there are both a variety of plans at every metal level and a variety of prices that he would finally comprehend that he simply can't read.

That, unsurprisingly perhaps, has not happened, despite the fact that prices are now public in multiple states. Some folks are hopeless.

 

[Trajan]

what difference does it make

If your employer is buying, then the insurance plan he chooses for you can change for any reason at all. He could even fire you! And then you won't have any coverage at all.

You pay what he chooses to make you contribute, regardless of what your plan actually costs. You get the providers in the network he chooses.

So I'm asking: who's making the decisions about what you're buying and what you're getting? If it's not you, then none of your questions can be answered by anyone other than the person actually shopping for coverage.

If you want specific answers about your coverage, then you're going to have to reveal more about it. Who's selling it, who's buying it, where is this happening, what does it cover, and where can one read the terms and conditions associated with it? I'm not your personal financial advisor but if you want individualized advice I'm going to need a lot more information.

I don't see why you need all of those qualifiers, if obamacare had not come along we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

no, well, actually I do know you need all of those qualifiers, because you cannot provide a forthright answer; I am not talking about the normal course of events that may or may not have occurred, that is not germane at all to this conversation, I am talking about changes that will occur due to obamacare.

You cannot claim nor use as protection, that 'hey shit could have changed anyway so what difference does it make' smokescreen, that won't wash.


my access, cost ( aside from the usual incremental bump) nor quality should change a wit due to obamacare- true or false?