What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[pismoe]

human history is full of men who fought for their kids . WW2 was fought by men so that their wives and kids wouldn't have to live under the 'nazis' . Life was / is good in the USA . Why feck it up by bringing in boatloads of the third worlders into the USA that have to be given everything at taxpayer and American expense Coyote ??

 

[Flopper]

Another reason their parents shouldnt take them when they are planning to commit a crime

So if you got a speeding ticket while your kids were in the car, they should be taken from you and locked in a cage without you knowing where they are?

Depends on how fast they were going. News report about a guy going 110 over the speed limit. He didn't get a ticket he got arrested.

That's because there's such a thing as "felony speeding" in some states.

For the thinking-impaired (I'm looking at you, Coyote), anything that gets you taken into law enforcement custody while your children are with you WILL result in you being separated from your children at that time. There is no amount of bullshit you can throw up about "speeding" and "jaywalking" and whatever else you dream up that doesn't involve being arrested that is going to change the fact that crossing the border illegally IS an offense that results in being arrested, and being arrested IS a circumstance that involves being separated from any children you have in tow.

You can pretend this policy of Trump's is business as usual. It isn't and humans that haven't abandoned their compassion know it.

Compassion can end you up in the poor house and make everyone in America Poverty stricken.

I watched your video and the speaker makes some good points but totally misses the reason we need immigrants. We need immigration to fill the jobs of the future. We can not fill the jobs we're creating with native born Americans because our birthrate is too low and our retirement rate is too high. We don't need the poorest of the poor but the best of the poor. We need people that can be an asset to the nation. Our immigration laws concentrate on bringing in close family member but we need to keep in mind that we need good people, not just family members.

 

[dudmuck]

 

[Flopper]

[QUOTE="Ray
I agree SS contributions should increase. If we don't, the choice is SS either goes the Medicare Route with government funding the difference between contributions and benefits paid or benefits are cut 25% to equal contributions. This will occur in the 2040's if nothing changes.

The government already funds Medicare, to the tune of 275 billion in 2015 and it increase every year.

There're two Medicare trust funds, the Hospital Insurance Fund which pays hospital bills (Part A) and the Supplemental Fund (Part B and Part D).

The Hospital Insurance Fund is funded by payroll contributions. The last increase in contributions was in 1985. It has balance of 205 billion. It's expenditures exceed income by about 3 to 5 billion, so it will probably not need an increase in payroll contributions for some years. BTW this was Medicare until the 1960's when congress expanded Medicare to include Part B which includes medical expenses other than hospital costs.

The Supplemental Insurance Fund is the problem. It pays for doctor visits, drugs, and all other medical expenses other than hospital costs. It is a voluntary option, called Part B of Medicare. Part D covering drugs was added in 2005. It is funded by contributions from beneficiaries who choose this coverage. It pays roughly 80% of covered expenses and beneficiary pays 20%. It's funded by monthly payments by beneficiaries and transfers from the general fund.

In 2015, the general fund transfers were 272 billion and payments by beneficiaries were 82 billion to the Supplemental Fund.

The concept of the Hospital Insurance Fund is similar to Social Security, the workers pay into the fund to defray cost when they retire. The Supplemental Fund is totally different. It's a system of sharing medical costs of the retired and disabled between beneficiaries and goverment. Expenses of the Supplemental Fund are more than twice that of the Hospital Fund and growing rapidly.

I believe we need to gradually raise retirement age and Medicare eligibility age to 70 over the new 20 years. This will not totally solve the funding problem with either S.S. or Medicare but it will certain help. It will also help relieve a growing shortage in the labor force. Right now we have 3 million jobs openings and we are adding hundreds of thousands of new jobs a year. Also, our birthrate is almost equal to our death rate and is falling. We are retiring 10,000 people a day and will for many years. If the nation is to continue to grow we have to have more workers. That can come from much higher immigration rates, which doesn't seem likely or we spend more of our life working and less in retirement.

All very well said, Flopper.

The problem is, you have a better grasp on the dynamics of the issue then the people making the policy.

I think the answer to medicare is Medicare Part E... Single payer like every other country has.

For Social Security, you are right, we probably need to raise the age to 70. When it was first enacted, m ost people didn't live to be 65. Today the average lifespan is 78.

People are quick to come up with the horrors that await the nation with single payer, shortages of medical care, rationing, skyrocketing prices, etc. However, what people don't consider is government is paying for 64% of our healthcare now. Will pushing that percentage up 36% really create a disaster in healthcare. I think not. What it will do is eliminate a lot of waste, duplication, and cost in the payment system. We have over a dozen federal agencies, 50 states, and about 100 major insurance companies, regulating and paying for healthcare.

Our current system provides us with all disadvantages of a highly diversified healthcare payment system and none of the advantages.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So if you got a speeding ticket while your kids were in the car, they should be taken from you and locked in a cage without you knowing where they are?

Depends on how fast they were going. News report about a guy going 110 over the speed limit. He didn't get a ticket he got arrested.

That's because there's such a thing as "felony speeding" in some states.

For the thinking-impaired (I'm looking at you, Coyote), anything that gets you taken into law enforcement custody while your children are with you WILL result in you being separated from your children at that time. There is no amount of bullshit you can throw up about "speeding" and "jaywalking" and whatever else you dream up that doesn't involve being arrested that is going to change the fact that crossing the border illegally IS an offense that results in being arrested, and being arrested IS a circumstance that involves being separated from any children you have in tow.

You can pretend this policy of Trump's is business as usual. It isn't and humans that haven't abandoned their compassion know it.

Compassion can end you up in the poor house and make everyone in America Poverty stricken.

I watched your video and the speaker makes some good points but totally misses the reason we need immigrants. We need immigration to fill the jobs of the future. We can not fill the jobs we're creating with native born Americans because our birthrate is too low and our retirement rate is too high. We don't need the poorest of the poor but the best of the poor. We need people that can be an asset to the nation. Our immigration laws concentrate on bringing in close family member but we need to keep in mind that we need good people, not just family members.

We have 6.5 million unemployed Americans today. Why do we need more people to do jobs? Why do we need to expand simply because we have a lot of jobs?

So the jobs go unfulfilled, then what happens? Employers have to increase offers. They need to increase pay rates, benefits, anything to get people to work in their industry.

But this is a bad thing? We need more people in this country to keep wages and benefits lower?

 

[Flopper]

Depends on how fast they were going. News report about a guy going 110 over the speed limit. He didn't get a ticket he got arrested.

That's because there's such a thing as "felony speeding" in some states.

For the thinking-impaired (I'm looking at you, Coyote), anything that gets you taken into law enforcement custody while your children are with you WILL result in you being separated from your children at that time. There is no amount of bullshit you can throw up about "speeding" and "jaywalking" and whatever else you dream up that doesn't involve being arrested that is going to change the fact that crossing the border illegally IS an offense that results in being arrested, and being arrested IS a circumstance that involves being separated from any children you have in tow.

You can pretend this policy of Trump's is business as usual. It isn't and humans that haven't abandoned their compassion know it.

Compassion can end you up in the poor house and make everyone in America Poverty stricken.

I watched your video and the speaker makes some good points but totally misses the reason we need immigrants. We need immigration to fill the jobs of the future. We can not fill the jobs we're creating with native born Americans because our birthrate is too low and our retirement rate is too high. We don't need the poorest of the poor but the best of the poor. We need people that can be an asset to the nation. Our immigration laws concentrate on bringing in close family member but we need to keep in mind that we need good people, not just family members.

We have 6.5 million unemployed Americans today. Why do we need more people to do jobs? Why do we need to expand simply because we have a lot of jobs?

So the jobs go unfulfilled, then what happens? Employers have to increase offers. They need to increase pay rates, benefits, anything to get people to work in their industry.

But this is a bad thing? We need more people in this country to keep wages and benefits lower?

Do you know what structural employment is? There is link below that explains it. Most of the people that are unemployed today are either part of our structural employment, chose not to work, or are simply in between jobs. Economist say we are now at full employment which means that all eligible people who want to work can find employment. As employment pushes lower than full employment, wages and inflation rise rapidly. Is that a bad thing? yes.

As long as wages rise along with higher productivity that is good for the nation but wage increases due to shortages of workers is not. Wage increases due labor shortages mean the nation is hiring marginally productive workers at higher rates. That leads to inflation not higher productivity.

We are creating jobs at a monthly rate as high as 250,000/mo and we have 3 million unfilled jobs. We simply will not have the people we need to fill the jobs that will be created because of a very low birthrate and high retirement rate. As I explained above worker shortages are not good for the economy or the country.

Structural Unemployment

 

[JoeB131]

I'm complaining because other people create problems that we have to solve, and we can't even solve our own yet.

STF out of this country. If your country is so bad, fight to change it as we have ours in history. We can't babysit the world. We have 7.6 billion people on this planet, some of which have children living in worse environments than south America. How many of these 7.6 billion are we to take in?

again, illegal immigration is at a 30 year low and we don't have that many people trying to get in. That you think the small amount of people we are taking in is a problem is really more about you than them.

We can solve our problems just fine... we just refuse to.

Yes, there was a time when immigrants were needed in the US. But today we are a population of 320 million people plus the illegal who are here. I think we are quite full if we want to live in the peace we live in now.

Actually, the undocumented are part of that 320 million, and we kind of need immigrants because White People aren't even reproducing at replacement rates. More of us are dying than being born.

 

[Cellblock2429]

We desperately need more legal immigrants...

Incorrect. We are a nation of 330,000,000 - one third of a billion - we already have the intellect and the warm bodies to produce whatever we need.

Our birth rate is much too low. It just reached a 30 year low and if the trend continues as is likely, our birth rate will be less than the death rate within 10 to 15 years. We also have 10,000 people a day going into retirement and we are generating 150,000 to 250,000 jobs a month. Immigration is limited to about 680,000 a year. Do the math. If we're going to continue to grow, we are going to need a lot more people in the 21 century.

What is this obsession with having to grow? Do you realize we had over a 100 million less people here in 1970 than we do today and we did just fine? And that was back in the day where automation wasn't even a concern.

A republican trumpster is asking about the need for growth? That's usually something we hear from liberal environmentalists.

Our economy is based on consumption and increased production of goods and services which is closely linked to growth in population. You need more people to consume and you need more people to produce otherwise you have no economic growth.

Okay, so we have 320 million now. What about 400 million? And if 400 million is good, then 700 million is better, right? And if 700 million is good, then 1.3 billion is the best, right?

/----/ Here's a great idea in the works.
Trump Orders Catapults Be Placed Along Border To Expedite Deportations

 

[JoeB131]

We have 6.5 million unemployed Americans today. Why do we need more people to do jobs? Why do we need to expand simply because we have a lot of jobs?

We have 6.5 million unemployed people who don't want to pick lettuce and clean toilets... They want skilled jobs that pay living wages.

So the jobs go unfulfilled, then what happens? Employers have to increase offers. They need to increase pay rates, benefits, anything to get people to work in their industry.

Um, problem with that, and you would say it if we were talking about a $15.00 minimum wage for burger flippers, is that it will cause the costs of everything else to go up, triggering inflation.

 

[Kondor3]

...again, illegal immigration is at a 30 year low...

That may be true, but (a) the damage is done, (b) we have 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens here now, to deal with and (c) we must prevent that from happening again.

...and we don't have that many people trying to get in...

That may be true, but (a) the damage is done, (b) we have 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens here now, to deal with and (c) we must prevent that from happening again.

...That you think the small amount of people we are taking in is a problem is really more about you than them....

That may be true, but (a) the damage is done, (b) we have 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens here now, to deal with and (c) we must prevent that from happening again.

...We can solve our problems just fine... we just refuse to...

True. What is happening now, however, makes for an amusing and effective down-payment on the entire course of "treatment" for this particular infestation.

...Actually, the undocumented are part of that 320 million...

320,000,000 - 12,000,000 = 308,000,000 = more (of everything) for us

...and we kind of need immigrants because White People aren't even reproducing at replacement rates. More of us are dying than being born.

Nonsense. Time to thin-out the herd a bit anyway. Wake us up if-and-when we slide below the 250,000,000 mark. Barring that... let the population decline begin.

 

[Kondor3]

/----/ Here's a great idea in the works.
Trump Orders Catapults Be Placed Along Border To Expedite Deportations

Typical Gubmint Screw-Up... they order catapults, and they get trebuchets...

 

[pismoe]

you last paragraph says it all . I have to wonder why more people are needed in the USA . Who wants to live in a crowded USA of different and divided cultures that need to be catered to and appeased Kondor .

 

[pismoe]

and who trusts or believes that made up number of 11 million illegals in the USA . That ' B.S.' number has got to be at least 20 years old .

 

[Cecilie1200]

In Human Trafficking Report, State Dept. Warns Against Separating Children From Parents

WASHINGTON — The State Department warned in a report on Thursday that separating children from their parents can cause lasting psychological damage that leaves them vulnerable to trafficking, a cautionary tale that comes amid an uproar over a Trump administration immigration policy that has temporarily broken up migrant families as they enter the United States.
“Children in institutional care, including government-run facilities, can be easy targets for traffickers,” the department’s annual Trafficking in Persons report concluded.
It added: “Even at their best, residential institutions are unable to meet a child’s need for emotional support that is typically received from family members or consistent caretakers with whom the child can develop an attachment.”

Another reason their parents shouldnt take them when they are planning to commit a crime

If you leave you're home because you are in fear for the lives of your family, you should leave your children at home.

Right, I'm sure that's why every one of them are coming here. It couldn't possibly be they are using their kids to draw sympathy

Trying to hide behind the skirts of a small minority of extreme "hard cases" is standard leftism. They try to excuse millions of abortions of convenience by screaming about "rape, incest, life of the mother!" and they try to excuse millions of illegals motivated by economics by screaming about "fear for their lives!"

And then they wonder how we ended up with President Trump.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Another reason their parents shouldnt take them when they are planning to commit a crime

So if you got a speeding ticket while your kids were in the car, they should be taken from you and locked in a cage without you knowing where they are?

How fucking fast were you going when you got pulled over, Seabiscuit, that you got arrested for it?

A misdemeanor is a misdemeanor. I’ve only gotten one speeding ticket in my life...55 in a 40. How many people get hauled off to jail, their children stripped from their feeding breast, for a misdemeanor?

No, you blockheaded twat, as I've said so many times I'm sick of it, all misdemeanors are NOT the same. You can keep ignoring it and coming back every couple of days to restate your imbecilic take on the world as though it's fresh and new, but it's not gonna help.

Speeding tickets and jaywalking and littering and whatever other godforsaken thing you leftist mouthbreathers dredge up are NOT the sum total of what constitutes a misdemeanor. Just as was the case the LAST six times I said this, misdemeanors come in several different classes, depending on the jurisdiction. And the most serious class of misdemeanors includes things like DUI, assault, hit-and-run, burglary . . . all things for which many people can and do "get hauled off to jail" and have "their children stripped from their feeding breast" (seriously, you have GOT to tone down the melodrama).

Seriously. I hope YOU have your children or grandchildren taken from you. I hope you have no idea where they are or how to get them back. Then maybe you would have an iota of compassion for what these mothers go through. Oh. And while you are at it why don't you move your fat comfortable ass to El Salvador and see what it's like there?

Never mind. You are far too entitled.

Seriously, I hope you grow enough brain cells to see yourself as you really are and have to live with the shame of being yourself for the rest of your natural life.

 

[JoeB131]

That may be true, but (a) the damage is done, (b) we have 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens here now, to deal with and (c) we must prevent that from happening again.

Again, it's only bad in your mind because you are a bigot. This country has been absorbing immigrants for centuries...

Here's what we do to "Fix" it.

12 million who are already here should be granted an amnesty, if they self-identify, with a case-by-case review. This worked just fine when Reagan did it 30 years ago.

The way to prevent future problems is to have a guest worker program that will allow cheap seasonal labor. Actually, when we had an open border, these folks came up for the harvest season, and went home when it was over.

What caused the "Crisis" is that 1) NAFTA devastated Mexican Agriculture by forcing Mexican farmers out of their own market and 2) Increased border security on our side meant that instead of going home at the end of harvest season, you might as well stay instead of keep having to navigate your way past.

But the only "Crisis" we have is white bigots living in mortal fear their daughters might date a Mexican.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

In Human Trafficking Report, State Dept. Warns Against Separating Children From Parents

WASHINGTON — The State Department warned in a report on Thursday that separating children from their parents can cause lasting psychological damage that leaves them vulnerable to trafficking, a cautionary tale that comes amid an uproar over a Trump administration immigration policy that has temporarily broken up migrant families as they enter the United States.
“Children in institutional care, including government-run facilities, can be easy targets for traffickers,” the department’s annual Trafficking in Persons report concluded.
It added: “Even at their best, residential institutions are unable to meet a child’s need for emotional support that is typically received from family members or consistent caretakers with whom the child can develop an attachment.”

Another reason their parents shouldnt take them when they are planning to commit a crime

If you leave you're home because you are in fear for the lives of your family, you should leave your children at home.

Right, I'm sure that's why every one of them are coming here. It couldn't possibly be they are using their kids to draw sympathy

Trying to hide behind the skirts of a small minority of extreme "hard cases" is standard leftism. They try to excuse millions of abortions of convenience by screaming about "rape, incest, life of the mother!" and they try to excuse millions of illegals motivated by economics by screaming about "fear for their lives!"

And then they wonder how we ended up with President Trump.

If there was some sort of war or government takeover in these counties, I could better understand. But these countries haven't changed in some time. There is no sudden need to escape an environment they've lived in most of their lives. Sure, they want a better place to live, and that's understandable. But I'm certain you will find many children and parents in Asia and Africa that feel the same way. I'm sure there are billions of people that would love to invade the US.

 

[pismoe]

That may be true, but (a) the damage is done, (b) we have 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens here now, to deal with and (c) we must prevent that from happening again.

Again, it's only bad in your mind because you are a bigot. This country has been absorbing immigrants for centuries...

Here's what we do to "Fix" it.

12 million who are already here should be granted an amnesty, if they self-identify, with a case-by-case review. This worked just fine when Reagan did it 30 years ago.

The way to prevent future problems is to have a guest worker program that will allow cheap seasonal labor. Actually, when we had an open border, these folks came up for the harvest season, and went home when it was over.

What caused the "Crisis" is that 1) NAFTA devastated Mexican Agriculture by forcing Mexican farmers out of their own market and 2) Increased border security on our side meant that instead of going home at the end of harvest season, you might as well stay instead of keep having to navigate your way past.

But the only "Crisis" we have is white bigots living in mortal fear their daughters might date a Mexican.

------------------------------------ my only concern is the NUMBERS plus the fact that third world mexicans and others will make the USA a third world zhithole . See downtown 'los angeles' and most of the surrounding southern kalifornia cities JoeB .

 

[pismoe]

That may be true, but (a) the damage is done, (b) we have 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens here now, to deal with and (c) we must prevent that from happening again.

Again, it's only bad in your mind because you are a bigot. This country has been absorbing immigrants for centuries...

Here's what we do to "Fix" it.

12 million who are already here should be granted an amnesty, if they self-identify, with a case-by-case review. This worked just fine when Reagan did it 30 years ago.

The way to prevent future problems is to have a guest worker program that will allow cheap seasonal labor. Actually, when we had an open border, these folks came up for the harvest season, and went home when it was over.

What caused the "Crisis" is that 1) NAFTA devastated Mexican Agriculture by forcing Mexican farmers out of their own market and 2) Increased border security on our side meant that instead of going home at the end of harvest season, you might as well stay instead of keep having to navigate your way past.

But the only "Crisis" we have is white bigots living in mortal fear their daughters might date a Mexican.

------------------------------------ my only concern is the NUMBERS plus the fact that third world mexicans and others will make the USA a third world zhithole . See downtown 'los angeles' and most of the surrounding southern kalifornia cities JoeB .

--------------------------------- and probably applies to many big gateway cities in the USA JoeB .

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We have 6.5 million unemployed people who don't want to pick lettuce and clean toilets... They want skilled jobs that pay living wages.

And you know this how? People with skills are usually aggressive people who will change trades or careers just to work. When I drive in the cities, I don't see a lot of educated tradesmen walking around. I see younger people--some drinking out of a bottle in a brown paper bag. I see my HUD neighbors who's cars don't move all day long. I don't think they are skilled workers waiting for a technical job.

Um, problem with that, and you would say it if we were talking about a $15.00 minimum wage for burger flippers, is that it will cause the costs of everything else to go up, triggering inflation.

That's forced wages. I don't believe in forced wages. However I do believe that left on it's own, everything will balance out if it happens naturally. Yes, it would cause a little inflation, but everybody would be making more money as well--not just a select group of people such as the minimum wage workers that represent 4% of our workforce.