What is the cause of kids commiting mass shootings in school ?

[yiostheoy]

I don't want to talk politics or guns on this subject because guns have been around for hundreds of yrs and politics even longer ......when I was in high school kids would drive to school with rifles and shot guns hanging on gun racks and you never heard about someone getting shot much less dozens being injured or killed ......so instead of arguing over the weapons used or not used in these mass killings I would like opinions on what motivates todays kids to commit acts of evil that was unheard of 30yrs ago ? what has changed ? what is different about the way kids think today ?

That is THE question we need to ask if we really want to stop that kind of thing. Why are we so violent? Why do we value life so little, why are we raising kids who are willing to kill?

Until we spend time and money trying to get answers, people will continue to die.

The politicians on the left say to ban guns, the politicians on the right say to arm teachers, no one is looking for answers.

People have been asking those questions for decades. The answers have very little to do with government and lot to do with how we raise children, how we treat each other, and our personal sense of value.

Yup, because brainwashing the kids holds them over until they can grow up and develop their own morals.

 

[boedicca]

Again, what decline are you referring too?

Moral standards; conduct; behaviors; values.

The problem is systemic. The signs are everywhere. All one has to do is look at the last two candidates we chose to run for the presidency.

Those are symptoms, not a cause.

No. As a society we have lowered our standards of conduct. That is the cause.

Circular nonsense. Again, lower standards are a symptom. They didn't just decline without a cause. Try identifying the root cause of The Decline.

I know it seems like a worn out argument, but I honestly believe the primary cause is an insidious progressivism that has slowly but relentless come to dominate our media, our education system, scientific institutions, and yes, our government.

Not all of it has emerged from bad intentions, but a lot of it has, namely that which seeks to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth along with an unhealthy motive to control what others are allowed to do, think, speak, believe.

And while there are always anecdotal exceptions to any trend the big picture shows results of:

Destruction or dilution of traditional values and the traditional home. An unacceptable number of children who grow up without a biological father in the home and children overall do not do as well personally, socially, academically, or economically as children from responsible traditional homes. Again a stunning fact: 26 of 27 of the most violent mass killers in American history grew up without their biological father in the home.

Increased hostility to religious faith that once tempered hatred and promoted peaceful solutions in both individuals and groups, but is now increasingly unwelcome in our institutions and in the public sphere in general.

Schools that no longer arm students with useful information and encourage critical thinking in how to use that information, but that indoctrinate with ideology as much as or more than they educate.

Scientific institutions that promote an agenda more than pure science .

A media that seeks to control what information is available to the people and no longer makes much attempt to report fairly, honestly, and with respect for their readers/viewers and that gives excessive coverage to violence and the militantly politically incorrect while giving short shrift to what is positive or constructive.

An entertainment industry--books, television, movies, video games--that promotes the anti-hero, gratuitous sex and violence, and generates sympathy for the criminal and social deviant or promotes doing socially unacceptable things for fun. At the same time it has almost eliminated the noble and normal hero and heroine or plots that emphasize traditional values and/or the best that we can be.

Government comprised of a permanent political class whose primary, perhaps sole focus is achieving and retaining ability to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and the personal wealth of those in it. It only throws enough bones to its constituencies to keep them voting and gives little more than lip service to actually solving problems.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting a Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

 

[yiostheoy]

I don't want to talk politics or guns on this subject because guns have been around for hundreds of yrs and politics even longer ......when I was in high school kids would drive to school with rifles and shot guns hanging on gun racks and you never heard about someone getting shot much less dozens being injured or killed ......so instead of arguing over the weapons used or not used in these mass killings I would like opinions on what motivates todays kids to commit acts of evil that was unheard of 30yrs ago ? what has changed ? what is different about the way kids think today ?

\

In case you don't know:

The removal of God from schools
The removal of discipline from schools


No God + no discipline= a bunch of degenerate heathens with no respect for anything.

Who could have known?

Anybody with half a brain.

God does not belong in public schools. God belongs at home and in parochial schools and church.

However I would favor teaching the kids about Philosophy at a young age, so that they can examine Aristotle and Aquinas and Descartes and Leibniz about "God" independently of Religion.

Unfortunately only rich Catholic kids or other prep school kids get any Philosophy before college.

And in college only if they elect to take a few Philosophy classes.

 

[yiostheoy]

Moral standards; conduct; behaviors; values.

The problem is systemic. The signs are everywhere. All one has to do is look at the last two candidates we chose to run for the presidency.

Those are symptoms, not a cause.

No. As a society we have lowered our standards of conduct. That is the cause.

Circular nonsense. Again, lower standards are a symptom. They didn't just decline without a cause. Try identifying the root cause of The Decline.

I know it seems like a worn out argument, but I honestly believe the primary cause is an insidious progressivism that has slowly but relentless come to dominate our media, our education system, scientific institutions, and yes, our government.

Not all of it has emerged from bad intentions, but a lot of it has, namely that which seeks to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth along with an unhealthy motive to control what others are allowed to do, think, speak, believe.

And while there are always anecdotal exceptions to any trend the big picture shows results of:

Destruction or dilution of traditional values and the traditional home. An unacceptable number of children who grow up without a biological father in the home and children overall do not do as well personally, socially, academically, or economically as children from responsible traditional homes. Again a stunning fact: 26 of 27 of the most violent mass killers in American history grew up without their biological father in the home.

Increased hostility to religious faith that once tempered hatred and promoted peaceful solutions in both individuals and groups, but is now increasingly unwelcome in our institutions and in the public sphere in general.

Schools that no longer arm students with useful information and encourage critical thinking in how to use that information, but that indoctrinate with ideology as much as or more than they educate.

Scientific institutions that promote an agenda more than pure science .

A media that seeks to control what information is available to the people and no longer makes much attempt to report fairly, honestly, and with respect for their readers/viewers and that gives excessive coverage to violence and the militantly politically incorrect while giving short shrift to what is positive or constructive.

An entertainment industry--books, television, movies, video games--that promotes the anti-hero, gratuitous sex and violence, and generates sympathy for the criminal and social deviant or promotes doing socially unacceptable things for fun. At the same time it has almost eliminated the noble and normal hero and heroine or plots that emphasize traditional values and/or the best that we can be.

Government comprised of a permanent political class whose primary, perhaps sole focus is achieving and retaining ability to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and the personal wealth of those in it. It only throws enough bones to its constituencies to keep them voting and gives little more than lip service to actually solving problems.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

All you are actually doing boedicca is embracing John Locke as your God now.

You and others need to embrace the entirety of Philosophy as your analytical tool for examining all issues, even God.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't want to talk politics or guns on this subject because guns have been around for hundreds of yrs and politics even longer ......when I was in high school kids would drive to school with rifles and shot guns hanging on gun racks and you never heard about someone getting shot much less dozens being injured or killed ......so instead of arguing over the weapons used or not used in these mass killings I would like opinions on what motivates todays kids to commit acts of evil that was unheard of 30yrs ago ? what has changed ? what is different about the way kids think today ?

In 26 of the 27 deadliest mass shooters in American history, the shooter came from homes in which the biological father was not present.

Coincidence? Maybe. But that is a stunning statistics.

And there are other critical factors at play. My short list:

--kids need a responsible mom and a dad in the home. Very very few criminals or violent people of any sort come from such homes.

--kids benefit from a religious faith that teaches love, respect for life and authority, caring from others. Good churches and synagogues aren't producing many criminals.

--kids need role models that demonstrate some of the best to which we can aspire instead of heaping admiration and fame, making heroes out of, or generating sympathy for those who promote hate, anger, violence, and lawless behavior.

--kids need to be taught personal responsibility and accountability in which the norm is educating yourself, staying away from illegal substances and activities, meriting a good reputation, learning a trade, getting married before having kids, and contributing to your family, your community, your country. Such people are rarely involved in any kind of bad acts.

--kids need video games, television programs, and movies that promote real heroism, good triumphing over evil, and rejection of violence except in self defense. When video games have the player having to do bad, even evil things to win, how can that not translate how they relate to their real world? When what passes for entertainment on television and in the movies promotes the worst kind of violence, promiscuity, immorality, and sympathy for the bad guys, it is no wonder that children become desensitized to violence or the pain of others and see bad acts as glorious acts. It all is teaching the kids and it is invariable that some of them will be motivated to act on it.

Maybe correlation isn't causation when it comes to kids being violent, but I sure think we need to look at what our culture has become and what we are teaching and demonstrating and how that contributes to the social problems we have.

I agree on all points as to what is needed. However, I think the changes you are addressing are generational changes that can take decades. You can not expect children to be responsibility when their parents are irresponsible. IMHO, the first step is to convince young couples that having children is a huge responsibility, requiring almost endless sacrifices. Not all couples are suitable parents and when they recognize it and decide not to have children, they should be praised by family and friends for making the right decision. Starting a family when you are not prepared to raise children properly is one of the worst problems we face in society.

I can't argue with that, but we have to start somewhere to fix the problem. For sure we didn't get into our current cultural mess in just a few years--it has taken decades of fuzzy, convoluted, and/or selfish thinking and philosophy infiltrated in government, into education, into science, into media plus dedicated efforts of the politically and socially ambitious to divide us so they could conquer us to arrive at the mess we are in. So it will take at least a generation of right thinking and values to correct most of it.

Standing in the way of even beginning are way too many people who refuse to even consider that screwing up and/or corrupting our culture is the primary problem. They are focused entirely on blaming a political party or prominent personalities, blaming guns, blaming an ideology, blaming our past, blaming anything and everything other than themselves and/or that/those that they support, and/or what they want to believe it true.

Although our society has it's problems, it is one of the best in world. I've lived in Europe, traveled throughout the Far East and spent some time in both Africa and the Middle East. As far as I am concerned, there is no society that even comes close to America. This is why so many people want to come here.

At first look American society might appears to be violent, immoral, and dominated by the worst possible people but this is merely because people focus in on the worst. The news media magnifies all that is wrong with society and focuses very little on what is right with society. If you actually look at the people around you in the country you can clearly see that most people are honest hard-working people, regardless of there political preferences, income, or race. They try to raise decent responsible kids, hate not being able to support them, and are generous to a fault. However, it's the failures that make the news and create false impressions of the country.

Compared to other societies, Americans are the most self-critical people on earth. We tear apart everything and are never satisfied.

We Americans are violent.

But we are not alone in that.

Russians are violent too.

We each protect our way of life and this sometimes requires violence.

America protects freedom and democracy.

Russia protects Russia.

The rest of the world including the PRC are all wimps. Ergo the rest of the world is less violent than America and Russia.

When we were promoting freedom and democracy, our schools were pretty much safe for children to be and nobody was shooting them up.

We aren't promoting freedom and democracy so much anymore. We are much more often promoting victimization, restitution for victimization, group think, and rights for special groups instead of individual liberties. The more chaos the better because it provides an excuse for more control over the people. In other words we are becoming more and more like totalitarian governments that control speech/thought/beliefs/what rights the people shall be allowed to have and how people are required to live.

 

[Foxfyre]

Moral standards; conduct; behaviors; values.

The problem is systemic. The signs are everywhere. All one has to do is look at the last two candidates we chose to run for the presidency.

Those are symptoms, not a cause.

No. As a society we have lowered our standards of conduct. That is the cause.

Circular nonsense. Again, lower standards are a symptom. They didn't just decline without a cause. Try identifying the root cause of The Decline.

I know it seems like a worn out argument, but I honestly believe the primary cause is an insidious progressivism that has slowly but relentless come to dominate our media, our education system, scientific institutions, and yes, our government.

Not all of it has emerged from bad intentions, but a lot of it has, namely that which seeks to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth along with an unhealthy motive to control what others are allowed to do, think, speak, believe.

And while there are always anecdotal exceptions to any trend the big picture shows results of:

Destruction or dilution of traditional values and the traditional home. An unacceptable number of children who grow up without a biological father in the home and children overall do not do as well personally, socially, academically, or economically as children from responsible traditional homes. Again a stunning fact: 26 of 27 of the most violent mass killers in American history grew up without their biological father in the home.

Increased hostility to religious faith that once tempered hatred and promoted peaceful solutions in both individuals and groups, but is now increasingly unwelcome in our institutions and in the public sphere in general.

Schools that no longer arm students with useful information and encourage critical thinking in how to use that information, but that indoctrinate with ideology as much as or more than they educate.

Scientific institutions that promote an agenda more than pure science .

A media that seeks to control what information is available to the people and no longer makes much attempt to report fairly, honestly, and with respect for their readers/viewers and that gives excessive coverage to violence and the militantly politically incorrect while giving short shrift to what is positive or constructive.

An entertainment industry--books, television, movies, video games--that promotes the anti-hero, gratuitous sex and violence, and generates sympathy for the criminal and social deviant or promotes doing socially unacceptable things for fun. At the same time it has almost eliminated the noble and normal hero and heroine or plots that emphasize traditional values and/or the best that we can be.

Government comprised of a permanent political class whose primary, perhaps sole focus is achieving and retaining ability to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and the personal wealth of those in it. It only throws enough bones to its constituencies to keep them voting and gives little more than lip service to actually solving problems.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

Amen. People do not have to believe in a Supreme Being to benefit from a core belief in unalienable natural rights and the capacity of a free people to govern themselves far better and to the benefit of society than any government entity will do that for them.

 

[boedicca]

In 26 of the 27 deadliest mass shooters in American history, the shooter came from homes in which the biological father was not present.

Coincidence? Maybe. But that is a stunning statistics.

And there are other critical factors at play. My short list:

--kids need a responsible mom and a dad in the home. Very very few criminals or violent people of any sort come from such homes.

--kids benefit from a religious faith that teaches love, respect for life and authority, caring from others. Good churches and synagogues aren't producing many criminals.

--kids need role models that demonstrate some of the best to which we can aspire instead of heaping admiration and fame, making heroes out of, or generating sympathy for those who promote hate, anger, violence, and lawless behavior.

--kids need to be taught personal responsibility and accountability in which the norm is educating yourself, staying away from illegal substances and activities, meriting a good reputation, learning a trade, getting married before having kids, and contributing to your family, your community, your country. Such people are rarely involved in any kind of bad acts.

--kids need video games, television programs, and movies that promote real heroism, good triumphing over evil, and rejection of violence except in self defense. When video games have the player having to do bad, even evil things to win, how can that not translate how they relate to their real world? When what passes for entertainment on television and in the movies promotes the worst kind of violence, promiscuity, immorality, and sympathy for the bad guys, it is no wonder that children become desensitized to violence or the pain of others and see bad acts as glorious acts. It all is teaching the kids and it is invariable that some of them will be motivated to act on it.

Maybe correlation isn't causation when it comes to kids being violent, but I sure think we need to look at what our culture has become and what we are teaching and demonstrating and how that contributes to the social problems we have.

I agree on all points as to what is needed. However, I think the changes you are addressing are generational changes that can take decades. You can not expect children to be responsibility when their parents are irresponsible. IMHO, the first step is to convince young couples that having children is a huge responsibility, requiring almost endless sacrifices. Not all couples are suitable parents and when they recognize it and decide not to have children, they should be praised by family and friends for making the right decision. Starting a family when you are not prepared to raise children properly is one of the worst problems we face in society.

I can't argue with that, but we have to start somewhere to fix the problem. For sure we didn't get into our current cultural mess in just a few years--it has taken decades of fuzzy, convoluted, and/or selfish thinking and philosophy infiltrated in government, into education, into science, into media plus dedicated efforts of the politically and socially ambitious to divide us so they could conquer us to arrive at the mess we are in. So it will take at least a generation of right thinking and values to correct most of it.

Standing in the way of even beginning are way too many people who refuse to even consider that screwing up and/or corrupting our culture is the primary problem. They are focused entirely on blaming a political party or prominent personalities, blaming guns, blaming an ideology, blaming our past, blaming anything and everything other than themselves and/or that/those that they support, and/or what they want to believe it true.

Although our society has it's problems, it is one of the best in world. I've lived in Europe, traveled throughout the Far East and spent some time in both Africa and the Middle East. As far as I am concerned, there is no society that even comes close to America. This is why so many people want to come here.

At first look American society might appears to be violent, immoral, and dominated by the worst possible people but this is merely because people focus in on the worst. The news media magnifies all that is wrong with society and focuses very little on what is right with society. If you actually look at the people around you in the country you can clearly see that most people are honest hard-working people, regardless of there political preferences, income, or race. They try to raise decent responsible kids, hate not being able to support them, and are generous to a fault. However, it's the failures that make the news and create false impressions of the country.

Compared to other societies, Americans are the most self-critical people on earth. We tear apart everything and are never satisfied.

We Americans are violent.

But we are not alone in that.

Russians are violent too.

We each protect our way of life and this sometimes requires violence.

America protects freedom and democracy.

Russia protects Russia.

The rest of the world including the PRC are all wimps. Ergo the rest of the world is less violent than America and Russia.

When we were promoting freedom and democracy, our schools were pretty much safe for children to be and nobody was shooting them up.

We aren't promoting freedom and democracy so much anymore. We are much more often promoting victimization, restitution for victimization, group think, and rights for special groups instead of individual liberties. The more chaos the better because it provides an excuse for more control over the people. In other words we are becoming more and more like totalitarian governments that control speech/thought/beliefs/what rights the people shall be allowed to have and how people are required to live.

Agreed. Instead of equal protection under the law and individual liberty, our elites and their hench thugs in the press and media promote Identity Politics and the Race to be the Biggest Victim.

 

[Meriweather]

The good thing about Catholic and Protestant brainwashing is that it gives you fear of infinite punishment for evil deeds.

The bad thing about Catholic and Protestant brainwashing is that like any other brainwashing it deprives people of reasoning and choice.

The first thing to get past is the notion of "brainwashing" so that we are able to focus on what is effective and what is not effective in teaching Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Atheism, etcetera. Children are not being "brainwashed" but how effectively are they being taught? It is not even effective enough to rise to the level of brainwashing.

Part of the reason for this in Christianity is because Protestants are so focused on the afterlife, that it seems (to someone who is not Protestant) that this life takes second place. Students cannot just read stories like Noah's Ark; they need someone to teach them the universal lessons inherent to all of mankind that are contained in Noah's Ark. Children are not going to see these lessons in the story unless they are specifically pointed out. "God flooded the entire planet" is not one of those lessons--it entirely misses the point of the story and the lessons about the flood. That is ineffective teaching.

 

[boedicca]

Those are symptoms, not a cause.

No. As a society we have lowered our standards of conduct. That is the cause.

Circular nonsense. Again, lower standards are a symptom. They didn't just decline without a cause. Try identifying the root cause of The Decline.

I know it seems like a worn out argument, but I honestly believe the primary cause is an insidious progressivism that has slowly but relentless come to dominate our media, our education system, scientific institutions, and yes, our government.

Not all of it has emerged from bad intentions, but a lot of it has, namely that which seeks to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth along with an unhealthy motive to control what others are allowed to do, think, speak, believe.

And while there are always anecdotal exceptions to any trend the big picture shows results of:

Destruction or dilution of traditional values and the traditional home. An unacceptable number of children who grow up without a biological father in the home and children overall do not do as well personally, socially, academically, or economically as children from responsible traditional homes. Again a stunning fact: 26 of 27 of the most violent mass killers in American history grew up without their biological father in the home.

Increased hostility to religious faith that once tempered hatred and promoted peaceful solutions in both individuals and groups, but is now increasingly unwelcome in our institutions and in the public sphere in general.

Schools that no longer arm students with useful information and encourage critical thinking in how to use that information, but that indoctrinate with ideology as much as or more than they educate.

Scientific institutions that promote an agenda more than pure science .

A media that seeks to control what information is available to the people and no longer makes much attempt to report fairly, honestly, and with respect for their readers/viewers and that gives excessive coverage to violence and the militantly politically incorrect while giving short shrift to what is positive or constructive.

An entertainment industry--books, television, movies, video games--that promotes the anti-hero, gratuitous sex and violence, and generates sympathy for the criminal and social deviant or promotes doing socially unacceptable things for fun. At the same time it has almost eliminated the noble and normal hero and heroine or plots that emphasize traditional values and/or the best that we can be.

Government comprised of a permanent political class whose primary, perhaps sole focus is achieving and retaining ability to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and the personal wealth of those in it. It only throws enough bones to its constituencies to keep them voting and gives little more than lip service to actually solving problems.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

Amen. People do not have to believe in a Supreme Being to benefit from a core belief in unalienable natural rights and the capacity of a free people to govern themselves far better and to the benefit of society than any government entity will do that for them.

That is the root cause I have been encouraging dinq to identify. Our societal decline is due to certain factions promoting nihilism and moral relativism instead of basic universal truths.

 

[BS Filter]

Video games, drugs, frustration, lack of teaching morality.

Those are NOT direct causes.

Those are merely facilitators.

The proximate CAUSE is REVENGE.

Yeah, I agree to a point. Anyone that thinks shooting innocent people to death for revenge is obviously mentally ill. What caused their mental illness is a good question.

 

[Flopper]

PBIS.org Home Page

Quit suspension and expulsion . Alternative ed and mental health classes and schools should be in every community. Students need to report and schools need to punish bullies and teach empathy.

Social brainwashing is good.

However it is also bad, but to a lesser degree.

So the ends of this kind of brainwashing justifies the means, at least until the kids grow their own empathy and conscience.

School security is the only practical workable solution.

But until you have Uzi's on every street corner like in Israel you will not stop school shooters.

School mass killings need to be put in perspective. They are terrible but they are rare. Excluding suicides we have averaged only 3 school mass killings a year over the last 10 years out of more than 150,000 schools in the US. The chance of a mass killing occurring in a school is less than 1 in 50,000 and the chance of a student dying in one is less likely than dying in a plane crash.

Look at the things that are being proposed such as arming our teachers, putting metal detectors and armed personnel in every school, spending tens of billions of dollars on mental healthcare for school children, and of course a battery of new gun control laws. How effective any of these proposals might be is unknown. And we talk about the people that perpetrate these terrible crimes being crazy.

 

[ding]

No. As a society we have lowered our standards of conduct. That is the cause.

Circular nonsense. Again, lower standards are a symptom. They didn't just decline without a cause. Try identifying the root cause of The Decline.

I know it seems like a worn out argument, but I honestly believe the primary cause is an insidious progressivism that has slowly but relentless come to dominate our media, our education system, scientific institutions, and yes, our government.

Not all of it has emerged from bad intentions, but a lot of it has, namely that which seeks to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth along with an unhealthy motive to control what others are allowed to do, think, speak, believe.

And while there are always anecdotal exceptions to any trend the big picture shows results of:

Destruction or dilution of traditional values and the traditional home. An unacceptable number of children who grow up without a biological father in the home and children overall do not do as well personally, socially, academically, or economically as children from responsible traditional homes. Again a stunning fact: 26 of 27 of the most violent mass killers in American history grew up without their biological father in the home.

Increased hostility to religious faith that once tempered hatred and promoted peaceful solutions in both individuals and groups, but is now increasingly unwelcome in our institutions and in the public sphere in general.

Schools that no longer arm students with useful information and encourage critical thinking in how to use that information, but that indoctrinate with ideology as much as or more than they educate.

Scientific institutions that promote an agenda more than pure science .

A media that seeks to control what information is available to the people and no longer makes much attempt to report fairly, honestly, and with respect for their readers/viewers and that gives excessive coverage to violence and the militantly politically incorrect while giving short shrift to what is positive or constructive.

An entertainment industry--books, television, movies, video games--that promotes the anti-hero, gratuitous sex and violence, and generates sympathy for the criminal and social deviant or promotes doing socially unacceptable things for fun. At the same time it has almost eliminated the noble and normal hero and heroine or plots that emphasize traditional values and/or the best that we can be.

Government comprised of a permanent political class whose primary, perhaps sole focus is achieving and retaining ability to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and the personal wealth of those in it. It only throws enough bones to its constituencies to keep them voting and gives little more than lip service to actually solving problems.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

Amen. People do not have to believe in a Supreme Being to benefit from a core belief in unalienable natural rights and the capacity of a free people to govern themselves far better and to the benefit of society than any government entity will do that for them.

That is the root cause I have been encouraging dinq to identify. Our societal decline is due to certain factions promoting nihilism and moral relativism instead of basic universal truths.

So you never paid any attention to the signature under any of my posts?

 

[yiostheoy]

Video games, drugs, frustration, lack of teaching morality.

Those are NOT direct causes.

Those are merely facilitators.

The proximate CAUSE is REVENGE.

Yeah, I agree to a point. Anyone that thinks shooting innocent people to death for revenge is obviously mentally ill. What caused their mental illness is a good question.

Mental illness is genetic.

Bad genes -- this is also in the FBI crime manuals under a separate topic.

 

[yiostheoy]

The good thing about Catholic and Protestant brainwashing is that it gives you fear of infinite punishment for evil deeds.

The bad thing about Catholic and Protestant brainwashing is that like any other brainwashing it deprives people of reasoning and choice.

The first thing to get past is the notion of "brainwashing" so that we are able to focus on what is effective and what is not effective in teaching Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Atheism, etcetera. Children are not being "brainwashed" but how effectively are they being taught? It is not even effective enough to rise to the level of brainwashing.

Part of the reason for this in Christianity is because Protestants are so focused on the afterlife, that it seems (to someone who is not Protestant) that this life takes second place. Students cannot just read stories like Noah's Ark; they need someone to teach them the universal lessons inherent to all of mankind that are contained in Noah's Ark. Children are not going to see these lessons in the story unless they are specifically pointed out. "God flooded the entire planet" is not one of those lessons--it entirely misses the point of the story and the lessons about the flood. That is ineffective teaching.

Brainwashing is brainwashing.

Part of the reason that the ancient Greeks invented Philosophy was to overcome their superstitions and brainwashed religion.

So you are now advocating more religion ?? That is just more brainwashing.

 

[ding]

In 26 of the 27 deadliest mass shooters in American history, the shooter came from homes in which the biological father was not present.

Coincidence? Maybe. But that is a stunning statistics.

And there are other critical factors at play. My short list:

--kids need a responsible mom and a dad in the home. Very very few criminals or violent people of any sort come from such homes.

--kids benefit from a religious faith that teaches love, respect for life and authority, caring from others. Good churches and synagogues aren't producing many criminals.

--kids need role models that demonstrate some of the best to which we can aspire instead of heaping admiration and fame, making heroes out of, or generating sympathy for those who promote hate, anger, violence, and lawless behavior.

--kids need to be taught personal responsibility and accountability in which the norm is educating yourself, staying away from illegal substances and activities, meriting a good reputation, learning a trade, getting married before having kids, and contributing to your family, your community, your country. Such people are rarely involved in any kind of bad acts.

--kids need video games, television programs, and movies that promote real heroism, good triumphing over evil, and rejection of violence except in self defense. When video games have the player having to do bad, even evil things to win, how can that not translate how they relate to their real world? When what passes for entertainment on television and in the movies promotes the worst kind of violence, promiscuity, immorality, and sympathy for the bad guys, it is no wonder that children become desensitized to violence or the pain of others and see bad acts as glorious acts. It all is teaching the kids and it is invariable that some of them will be motivated to act on it.

Maybe correlation isn't causation when it comes to kids being violent, but I sure think we need to look at what our culture has become and what we are teaching and demonstrating and how that contributes to the social problems we have.

I agree on all points as to what is needed. However, I think the changes you are addressing are generational changes that can take decades. You can not expect children to be responsibility when their parents are irresponsible. IMHO, the first step is to convince young couples that having children is a huge responsibility, requiring almost endless sacrifices. Not all couples are suitable parents and when they recognize it and decide not to have children, they should be praised by family and friends for making the right decision. Starting a family when you are not prepared to raise children properly is one of the worst problems we face in society.

I can't argue with that, but we have to start somewhere to fix the problem. For sure we didn't get into our current cultural mess in just a few years--it has taken decades of fuzzy, convoluted, and/or selfish thinking and philosophy infiltrated in government, into education, into science, into media plus dedicated efforts of the politically and socially ambitious to divide us so they could conquer us to arrive at the mess we are in. So it will take at least a generation of right thinking and values to correct most of it.

Standing in the way of even beginning are way too many people who refuse to even consider that screwing up and/or corrupting our culture is the primary problem. They are focused entirely on blaming a political party or prominent personalities, blaming guns, blaming an ideology, blaming our past, blaming anything and everything other than themselves and/or that/those that they support, and/or what they want to believe it true.

Although our society has it's problems, it is one of the best in world. I've lived in Europe, traveled throughout the Far East and spent some time in both Africa and the Middle East. As far as I am concerned, there is no society that even comes close to America. This is why so many people want to come here.

At first look American society might appears to be violent, immoral, and dominated by the worst possible people but this is merely because people focus in on the worst. The news media magnifies all that is wrong with society and focuses very little on what is right with society. If you actually look at the people around you in the country you can clearly see that most people are honest hard-working people, regardless of there political preferences, income, or race. They try to raise decent responsible kids, hate not being able to support them, and are generous to a fault. However, it's the failures that make the news and create false impressions of the country.

Compared to other societies, Americans are the most self-critical people on earth. We tear apart everything and are never satisfied.

That seems like a poor measure. We are the best of the worst?

Maybe it is, but it is far better than measuring our society against that which does not exits, never has, and probably never will.

I disagree. It has existed before in our society. Albeit a very long time ago. We even have a witness who has testified to it. Someone whose book was used in pretty much every political science curriculum in America. Not so much anymore though. Imagine that.

One Nation Under God: Alexis de Tocqueville

Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country. Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society. In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth. In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great. The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom. The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts -- the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.

 

[ding]

The good thing about Catholic and Protestant brainwashing is that it gives you fear of infinite punishment for evil deeds.

The bad thing about Catholic and Protestant brainwashing is that like any other brainwashing it deprives people of reasoning and choice.

The first thing to get past is the notion of "brainwashing" so that we are able to focus on what is effective and what is not effective in teaching Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Atheism, etcetera. Children are not being "brainwashed" but how effectively are they being taught? It is not even effective enough to rise to the level of brainwashing.

Part of the reason for this in Christianity is because Protestants are so focused on the afterlife, that it seems (to someone who is not Protestant) that this life takes second place. Students cannot just read stories like Noah's Ark; they need someone to teach them the universal lessons inherent to all of mankind that are contained in Noah's Ark. Children are not going to see these lessons in the story unless they are specifically pointed out. "God flooded the entire planet" is not one of those lessons--it entirely misses the point of the story and the lessons about the flood. That is ineffective teaching.

Brainwashing is brainwashing.

Part of the reason that the ancient Greeks invented Philosophy was to overcome their superstitions and brainwashed religion.

So you are now advocating more religion ?? That is just more brainwashing.

You want to talk about brainwashing? We've had four generations of it starting back in the 1930's. We did it to ourselves. And since you are propagandizing that religion is responsible for brainwashing, you are playing right into their hands.

1. de-MORALIZE
2. destabilize
3. crisis
4. normalize

 

[Foxfyre]

PBIS.org Home Page

Quit suspension and expulsion . Alternative ed and mental health classes and schools should be in every community. Students need to report and schools need to punish bullies and teach empathy.

Social brainwashing is good.

However it is also bad, but to a lesser degree.

So the ends of this kind of brainwashing justifies the means, at least until the kids grow their own empathy and conscience.

School security is the only practical workable solution.

But until you have Uzi's on every street corner like in Israel you will not stop school shooters.

School mass killings need to be put in perspective. They are terrible but they are rare. Excluding suicides we have averaged only 3 school mass killings a year over the last 10 years out of more than 150,000 schools in the US. The chance of a mass killing occurring in a school is less than 1 in 50,000 and the chance of a student dying in one is less likely than dying in a plane crash.

Look at the things that are being proposed such as arming our teachers, putting metal detectors and armed personnel in every school, spending tens of billions of dollars on mental healthcare for school children, and of course a battery of new gun control laws. How effective any of these proposals might be is unknown. And we talk about the people that perpetrate these terrible crimes being crazy.

On the other hand 17 dead people, mostly kids, and a host of others injured at Parkland didn't have to happen. And if it is your child that is dead or injured or put at risk, the broader statistics don't count for anything.

There have always been instances of violence and some have occurred in the schools, but somebody specific was almost always the target of the violence and/or it was triggered by some offense at the time or in gang activity or mob violence and involved the National Guard or police.

The first instance of a planned and executed indiscrimate mass school shooting with random targets I believe was in 1966 when a sniper on a roof at the University of Texas killed I'm think 17 people and wounded others.

There wasn't another until Columbine in 1999 and since then they have been happening with uncommon frequency.

And as long as school remain extremely soft targets and the media insists on giving exessive coverage to such events--actually suspending regular programming and devoting non stop coverage for hours or day--plus it stirs up a frenzy of national debate on gun control--it is reasonable that those bordering on or who are full fledged sociopathic personalities will be inspired to go after their own time in the spotlight and fame.

Circular nonsense. Again, lower standards are a symptom. They didn't just decline without a cause. Try identifying the root cause of The Decline.

I know it seems like a worn out argument, but I honestly believe the primary cause is an insidious progressivism that has slowly but relentless come to dominate our media, our education system, scientific institutions, and yes, our government.

Not all of it has emerged from bad intentions, but a lot of it has, namely that which seeks to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth along with an unhealthy motive to control what others are allowed to do, think, speak, believe.

And while there are always anecdotal exceptions to any trend the big picture shows results of:

Destruction or dilution of traditional values and the traditional home. An unacceptable number of children who grow up without a biological father in the home and children overall do not do as well personally, socially, academically, or economically as children from responsible traditional homes. Again a stunning fact: 26 of 27 of the most violent mass killers in American history grew up without their biological father in the home.

Increased hostility to religious faith that once tempered hatred and promoted peaceful solutions in both individuals and groups, but is now increasingly unwelcome in our institutions and in the public sphere in general.

Schools that no longer arm students with useful information and encourage critical thinking in how to use that information, but that indoctrinate with ideology as much as or more than they educate.

Scientific institutions that promote an agenda more than pure science .

A media that seeks to control what information is available to the people and no longer makes much attempt to report fairly, honestly, and with respect for their readers/viewers and that gives excessive coverage to violence and the militantly politically incorrect while giving short shrift to what is positive or constructive.

An entertainment industry--books, television, movies, video games--that promotes the anti-hero, gratuitous sex and violence, and generates sympathy for the criminal and social deviant or promotes doing socially unacceptable things for fun. At the same time it has almost eliminated the noble and normal hero and heroine or plots that emphasize traditional values and/or the best that we can be.

Government comprised of a permanent political class whose primary, perhaps sole focus is achieving and retaining ability to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and the personal wealth of those in it. It only throws enough bones to its constituencies to keep them voting and gives little more than lip service to actually solving problems.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

Amen. People do not have to believe in a Supreme Being to benefit from a core belief in unalienable natural rights and the capacity of a free people to govern themselves far better and to the benefit of society than any government entity will do that for them.

That is the root cause I have been encouraging dinq to identify. Our societal decline is due to certain factions promoting nihilism and moral relativism instead of basic universal truths.

So you never paid any attention to the signature under any of my posts?

As an aside, IMO the readership of your signature would be much higher and the impact much more effective if you would condense it into its key message with a notation of the source. I've never read it because the wall of text is offputting.

But on topic, Boedicca is spot on with her comment.

 

[boedicca]

Circular nonsense. Again, lower standards are a symptom. They didn't just decline without a cause. Try identifying the root cause of The Decline.

I know it seems like a worn out argument, but I honestly believe the primary cause is an insidious progressivism that has slowly but relentless come to dominate our media, our education system, scientific institutions, and yes, our government.

Not all of it has emerged from bad intentions, but a lot of it has, namely that which seeks to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth along with an unhealthy motive to control what others are allowed to do, think, speak, believe.

And while there are always anecdotal exceptions to any trend the big picture shows results of:

Destruction or dilution of traditional values and the traditional home. An unacceptable number of children who grow up without a biological father in the home and children overall do not do as well personally, socially, academically, or economically as children from responsible traditional homes. Again a stunning fact: 26 of 27 of the most violent mass killers in American history grew up without their biological father in the home.

Increased hostility to religious faith that once tempered hatred and promoted peaceful solutions in both individuals and groups, but is now increasingly unwelcome in our institutions and in the public sphere in general.

Schools that no longer arm students with useful information and encourage critical thinking in how to use that information, but that indoctrinate with ideology as much as or more than they educate.

Scientific institutions that promote an agenda more than pure science .

A media that seeks to control what information is available to the people and no longer makes much attempt to report fairly, honestly, and with respect for their readers/viewers and that gives excessive coverage to violence and the militantly politically incorrect while giving short shrift to what is positive or constructive.

An entertainment industry--books, television, movies, video games--that promotes the anti-hero, gratuitous sex and violence, and generates sympathy for the criminal and social deviant or promotes doing socially unacceptable things for fun. At the same time it has almost eliminated the noble and normal hero and heroine or plots that emphasize traditional values and/or the best that we can be.

Government comprised of a permanent political class whose primary, perhaps sole focus is achieving and retaining ability to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and the personal wealth of those in it. It only throws enough bones to its constituencies to keep them voting and gives little more than lip service to actually solving problems.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

Amen. People do not have to believe in a Supreme Being to benefit from a core belief in unalienable natural rights and the capacity of a free people to govern themselves far better and to the benefit of society than any government entity will do that for them.

That is the root cause I have been encouraging dinq to identify. Our societal decline is due to certain factions promoting nihilism and moral relativism instead of basic universal truths.

So you never paid any attention to the signature under any of my posts?

About as much as you pay to mine, apparently.

Your sig is TLTR. I'd be more impressed if you could explain the root cause in a post in your own words.

 

[ding]

PBIS.org Home Page

Quit suspension and expulsion . Alternative ed and mental health classes and schools should be in every community. Students need to report and schools need to punish bullies and teach empathy.

Social brainwashing is good.

However it is also bad, but to a lesser degree.

So the ends of this kind of brainwashing justifies the means, at least until the kids grow their own empathy and conscience.

School security is the only practical workable solution.

But until you have Uzi's on every street corner like in Israel you will not stop school shooters.

School mass killings need to be put in perspective. They are terrible but they are rare. Excluding suicides we have averaged only 3 school mass killings a year over the last 10 years out of more than 150,000 schools in the US. The chance of a mass killing occurring in a school is less than 1 in 50,000 and the chance of a student dying in one is less likely than dying in a plane crash.

Look at the things that are being proposed such as arming our teachers, putting metal detectors and armed personnel in every school, spending tens of billions of dollars on mental healthcare for school children, and of course a battery of new gun control laws. How effective any of these proposals might be is unknown. And we talk about the people that perpetrate these terrible crimes being crazy.

On the other hand 17 dead people, mostly kids, and a host of others injured at Parkland didn't have to happen. And if it is your child that is dead or injured or put at risk, the broader statistics don't count for anything.

There have always been instances of violence and some have occurred in the schools, but somebody specific was almost always the target of the violence and/or it was triggered by some offense at the time or in gang activity or mob violence and involved the National Guard or police.

The first instance of a planned and executed indiscrimate mass school shooting with random targets I believe was in 1966 when a sniper on a roof at the University of Texas killed I'm think 17 people and wounded others.

There wasn't another until Columbine in 1999 and since then they have been happening with uncommon frequency.

And as long as school remain extremely soft targets and the media insists on giving exessive coverage to such events--actually suspending regular programming and devoting non stop coverage for hours or day--plus it stirs up a frenzy of national debate on gun control--it is reasonable that those bordering on or who are full fledged sociopathic personalities will be inspired to go after their own time in the spotlight and fame.

I know it seems like a worn out argument, but I honestly believe the primary cause is an insidious progressivism that has slowly but relentless come to dominate our media, our education system, scientific institutions, and yes, our government.

Not all of it has emerged from bad intentions, but a lot of it has, namely that which seeks to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth along with an unhealthy motive to control what others are allowed to do, think, speak, believe.

And while there are always anecdotal exceptions to any trend the big picture shows results of:

Destruction or dilution of traditional values and the traditional home. An unacceptable number of children who grow up without a biological father in the home and children overall do not do as well personally, socially, academically, or economically as children from responsible traditional homes. Again a stunning fact: 26 of 27 of the most violent mass killers in American history grew up without their biological father in the home.

Increased hostility to religious faith that once tempered hatred and promoted peaceful solutions in both individuals and groups, but is now increasingly unwelcome in our institutions and in the public sphere in general.

Schools that no longer arm students with useful information and encourage critical thinking in how to use that information, but that indoctrinate with ideology as much as or more than they educate.

Scientific institutions that promote an agenda more than pure science .

A media that seeks to control what information is available to the people and no longer makes much attempt to report fairly, honestly, and with respect for their readers/viewers and that gives excessive coverage to violence and the militantly politically incorrect while giving short shrift to what is positive or constructive.

An entertainment industry--books, television, movies, video games--that promotes the anti-hero, gratuitous sex and violence, and generates sympathy for the criminal and social deviant or promotes doing socially unacceptable things for fun. At the same time it has almost eliminated the noble and normal hero and heroine or plots that emphasize traditional values and/or the best that we can be.

Government comprised of a permanent political class whose primary, perhaps sole focus is achieving and retaining ability to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and the personal wealth of those in it. It only throws enough bones to its constituencies to keep them voting and gives little more than lip service to actually solving problems.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

Amen. People do not have to believe in a Supreme Being to benefit from a core belief in unalienable natural rights and the capacity of a free people to govern themselves far better and to the benefit of society than any government entity will do that for them.

That is the root cause I have been encouraging dinq to identify. Our societal decline is due to certain factions promoting nihilism and moral relativism instead of basic universal truths.

So you never paid any attention to the signature under any of my posts?

As an aside, IMO the readership of your signature would be much higher and the impact much more effective if you would condense it into its key message with a notation of the source. I've never read it because the wall of text is offputting.

Boedicca is spot on with her comment.

I appreciate your opinion, Firefox, but I disagree with both points. The root cause of our problem is lowering our standards. Blaming this on an external source such as progressivism transfers our control to progressivism. No one forced us to lower our standards. We did it all on our own as a society.

As for my signature. Tell me what to eliminate. Tell me what is redundant. Show me how to re-write it such that none of the key messages are lost. I believe each and everyone of the key messages are important. I am sorry that it is too long for those who can't be bothered by 20 sentences. All in all, I think this is pretty short considering the number of sources this was condensed from.

 

[boedicca]

PBIS.org Home Page

Quit suspension and expulsion . Alternative ed and mental health classes and schools should be in every community. Students need to report and schools need to punish bullies and teach empathy.

Social brainwashing is good.

However it is also bad, but to a lesser degree.

So the ends of this kind of brainwashing justifies the means, at least until the kids grow their own empathy and conscience.

School security is the only practical workable solution.

But until you have Uzi's on every street corner like in Israel you will not stop school shooters.

School mass killings need to be put in perspective. They are terrible but they are rare. Excluding suicides we have averaged only 3 school mass killings a year over the last 10 years out of more than 150,000 schools in the US. The chance of a mass killing occurring in a school is less than 1 in 50,000 and the chance of a student dying in one is less likely than dying in a plane crash.

Look at the things that are being proposed such as arming our teachers, putting metal detectors and armed personnel in every school, spending tens of billions of dollars on mental healthcare for school children, and of course a battery of new gun control laws. How effective any of these proposals might be is unknown. And we talk about the people that perpetrate these terrible crimes being crazy.

On the other hand 17 dead people, mostly kids, and a host of others injured at Parkland didn't have to happen. And if it is your child that is dead or injured or put at risk, the broader statistics don't count for anything.

There have always been instances of violence and some have occurred in the schools, but somebody specific was almost always the target of the violence and/or it was triggered by some offense at the time or in gang activity or mob violence and involved the National Guard or police.

The first instance of a planned and executed indiscrimate mass school shooting with random targets I believe was in 1966 when a sniper on a roof at the University of Texas killed I'm think 17 people and wounded others.

There wasn't another until Columbine in 1999 and since then they have been happening with uncommon frequency.

And as long as school remain extremely soft targets and the media insists on giving exessive coverage to such events--actually suspending regular programming and devoting non stop coverage for hours or day--plus it stirs up a frenzy of national debate on gun control--it is reasonable that those bordering on or who are full fledged sociopathic personalities will be inspired to go after their own time in the spotlight and fame.

Indeed. I'll paraphrase that substituting Government Secular God for a Universal Life Affirming Creator/Presence hasn't worked out to well. When Raw Power wielded by fallible humans takes the place of a shared universal concept of inalienable human rights, we're doomed.

Amen. People do not have to believe in a Supreme Being to benefit from a core belief in unalienable natural rights and the capacity of a free people to govern themselves far better and to the benefit of society than any government entity will do that for them.

That is the root cause I have been encouraging dinq to identify. Our societal decline is due to certain factions promoting nihilism and moral relativism instead of basic universal truths.

So you never paid any attention to the signature under any of my posts?

As an aside, IMO the readership of your signature would be much higher and the impact much more effective if you would condense it into its key message with a notation of the source. I've never read it because the wall of text is offputting.

Boedicca is spot on with her comment.

I appreciate your opinion, Firefox, but I disagree with both points. The root cause of our problem is lowering our standards. Blaming this on an external source such as progressivism transfers our control to progressivism. No one forced us to lower our standards. We did it all on our own as a society.

As for my signature. Tell me what to eliminate. Tell me what is redundant. Show me how to re-write it such that all of the key messages are not lost.

Lowering Standard is a SYMPTOM. People don't just decide to lower standards based on nothing.