What is the goal of capitalism?

[Thunk]

Firstly, the idea that price controls have "never worked in all of history" is definitely hogwash.

I could spend hours picking apart every sentence...it ain't worth my time.

 

[Red Front]

Thanks for the Chinese communist view of the economy.

And you clearly did not understand what I had said about the young capitalists who own the farm and equipment. They are not harming the working class.

Thanks for the Chinese communist view of the economy.

Me saying to you, shit like: "Oh yeah, that's straight from the Chicago School Of Economics!" or "You're quoting Milton Friedman!", with the mistaken idea that by telling you that, I've somehow refuted your position, would make me a moron. If I did that, I would be resorting to cheap ad hominems, which would only prove my inability to think rationally. You telling me that my position is supposedly that of the Chinese communists, doesn't prove or disprove anything with respect to the veracity of anyone's arguments (yours or mine).

China is "communist" or "Marxist" in name only, not in practice. It's more of a mixed economy, that is a bit more centrally planned than mixed economies in the Western world, but nonetheless, far from communist. In some ways, Western Europe and even the United States are more socialist than China.

My position on capitalism is nothing less, than textbook Marxism - Leninism. Everything I say about socioeconomics is supported by the writings of Marx, Engels, and Lenin. You subscribe to the economics formulated by foreigners as well, so be careful how you respond to what I just said, lest you place yourself in a precariously difficult position to defend.

And you clearly did not understand what I had said about the young capitalists who own the farm and equipment. They are not harming the working class.

How would you know? Do you know how they vote? What are their farming methods? What chemicals do they use when growing their crops? Are they growing GMO crops that are contaminating neighboring fields that grow organic, non-GMO crops? Neither you nor I know them, so how can we truly say, these young members of the wealthy, owner class aren't hurting the working class?

The technology that they're using is what ensures socialism is the inevitable successor and beneficiary ("remainder man") of capitalism. It will inherit all of the resources of capitalism, just as capitalism 200 years ago succeeded feudalistic monarchism. The revolutionary capitalist republicans defeated the kings and nobles of Europe, thanks to new industrial technology. It was the material conditions that allowed the mercantile class to become the powerful industrialists of the 19th century, controlling everything, from production to politics. That victory took hundreds of years, it wasn't achieved with a single, decisive swoop of the sword. It was a very long, painful, bloody process.

With the advent of advanced 21st-century, intelligent automation, we're now living in the middle of the transition from one system of production to another, similar to what occurred in the 19th century during industrialization. Capitalism will not be replaced by socialism overnight, or even in a few years, it will take another thirty, maybe even fifty or sixty years before we're forced by necessity to adopt a non-profit system of production, due to advanced, intelligent automation. We're however seeing now the beginning of that transition with the loss of jobs by automation.

The video you presented shows how easy it is to farm today, thanks to all of the technology that's available. A well-equipped, high-tech farmer, can farm a large field all by himself, using highly computerized and automated tractors, among other modern machines and equipment. One man today using advanced farming technology can produce in one day what once took 50 or even 100 men, working two or three days. Sometimes the defenders of capitalism will show me videos of capitalists using advanced technology that frees them from having to hire human labor, as if to tell me "fuck you commie". The problem with that point of view is that it fails to connect workers with paying consumers.

We communists (far-left socialists), love high-tech automation. We don't rely on markets or wage labor to produce the goods and services that consumers need. Capitalism does. Without wage labor, capitalism eliminates its customer base and hence its markets. Can you have capitalism, without customers or a marketplace? No. Advanced production technology actually strengthens communism, making it the inevitable, natural successor of capitalism. We don't need wage labor, markets, and money, you do. High-communist non-profit production is the future, whereas for-profit capitalist production is the past. We're the future, you're the past.

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The whole supply chain can be automated. The accounting and logistics of the economy (the production of goods and services), can be easily executed by advanced, intelligent automation technology. We're not concerned with wages, profits, or markets, but rather with production output meeting the needs of consumers. Communists have to produce and deliver goods and services to meet everyone's needs. That's the main concern, not surplus value/profits or whether production is "commercially viable" or not.

If we have robots working for us 24/7, we're going to have more than enough goods and services to meet all of our needs. Extreme abundance results in the elimination of scarcity and an increased standard of living for everyone.

Each member of society that can work, works a few hours weekly, and in return, they get access to a long list of goods and services. There's no reason why everyone can't have one or two homes, and a plot of land where they can also grow their own food, using the latest farming technology. Under high-tech, modern, democratic communism, the vast majority of people would enjoy a much higher standard of living. They would own more personal property, than they do now, under capitalism.

 

[Red Front]

I could spend hours picking apart every sentence...it ain't worth my time.

Because you can't. Go ahead, I dare you.

 

[Thunk]

Your argument hinges on the idea that the only incentive for production is profit. While profit is certainly a driving factor in a capitalist system, it's not the sole motivator, nor is it always the most efficient or equitable way to distribute resources.

Holy God almighty!

If a business doesn't make a profit...IT GOES OUT OF BUSINESS! Period end of sentence!

It's a fucking rule!

In a capitalist or communist system doesn't matter...if it doesn't make a profit it goes under...poof...gone...adios...aloha....bye bye

 

[Red Front]

As a very long time businessman, that is not factual.
Automation? Definitely how to relieve inaccuracies and jaw breaking labor efforts.
I believe totally in automation. It caused the mass emergence of industry. Industry produces incomes.
Ask my grandson if he wants it your way. He graduated college into a fine $165,000 year job as an computer engineer. And he is strongly a capitalist. BTW, that is lower by far than what he makes today.

Your grandson was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and is of a socioeconomic class that represents a small minority of the population. In the near future, his job might disappear due to AI. Right now artificial intelligence is coding software, on its own. As I already stated, in the not-too-distant future, due to advanced automation, unemployment will force society to adopt a non-profit system of production, namely, socialism. It's inevitable.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Your grandson was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and is of a socioeconomic class that represents a small minority of the population. In the near future, his job might disappear due to AI. Right now artificial intelligence is coding software, on its own. As I already stated, in the not-too-distant future, due to advanced automation, unemployment will force society to adopt a non-profit system of production, namely, socialism. It's inevitable.

You have it quite bvackwards.

Advancing technology demands more innovation which is never permited under communism or socialism.

Advanced automation will force more capitalism

Your grankids will lauch at your claims

 

[Red Front]

Holy God almighty!

If a business doesn't make a profit...IT GOES OUT OF BUSINESS! Period end of sentence!

It's a fucking rule!

In a capitalist or communist system doesn't matter...if it doesn't make a profit it goes under...poof...gone...adios...aloha....bye bye

In communism, there are no markets or profits. Communist production doesn't depend on commercial viability or surplus value. However, even within our current capitalist system, a worker-owned cooperative can function without profits. If the enterprise pays its bills, including salaries, that business can continue running, even without a surplus (profits). Privately owned businesses have to generate a surplus, but not a worker-owned business started for the purpose of securing jobs, rather than profits.

Is it good for a business to generate a profit? Yes, that's the ideal. It's always good to generate a surplus, but a worker cooperative doesn't function exactly as a privately owned business. It has different priorities.

 

[Soupnazi630]

In communism, there are no markets or profits. Communist production doesn't depend on commercial viability or surplus value. However, even within our current capitalist system, a worker-owned cooperative can function without profits. If the enterprise pays its bills, including salaries, that business can continue running, even without a surplus (profits). Privately owned businesses have to generate a surplus, but not a worker-owned business started for the purpose of securing jobs, rather than profits.

Is it good under capitalism, for a business to generate a profit? Yes, that's the ideal. It's always good to generate a surplus, but a worker cooperative doesn't function exactly as a privately owned business. It has different priorities.

Post a specific example of worker owned coops operating long term WITHOUT profits.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

In communism, there are no markets or profits. Communist production doesn't depend on commercial viability or surplus value. However, even within our current capitalist system, a worker-owned cooperative can function without profits. If the enterprise pays its bills, including salaries, that business can continue running, even without a surplus (profits). Privately owned businesses have to generate a surplus, but not a worker-owned business started for the purpose of securing jobs, rather than profits.

Is it good for a business to generate a profit? Yes, that's the ideal. It's always good to generate a surplus, but a worker cooperative doesn't function exactly as a privately owned business. It has different priorities.

In communism, there are no markets or profits.

Not much product either.

 

[Thunk]

In communism, there are no markets or profits.

And extremely little food, housing or medical care.

Communism makes everybody equal by bringing everybody down tot he lowest common denominator.

In the USA...even the so called "poor" live better than kings did 150 years ago!

 

[Red Front]

And extremely little food, housing or medical care.

Communism makes everybody equal by bringing everybody down tot he lowest common denominator.

In the USA...even the so called "poor" live better than kings did 150 years ago!

You conveniently ignored every point I made and fire off several illogical red herrings.

And extremely little food, housing or medical care.

How so?

Communism makes everybody equal by bringing everybody down tot he lowest common denominator.

Explain, and elaborate. How is this the case?

In the USA...even the so called "poor" live better than kings did 150 years ago!

Indeed, but how does this apply to anything I said in my last three or four posts? Nothing. Explain. What's your point?

 

[Thunk]

Explain, and elaborate. How is this the case?

You are just not worth my time.

 

[Robert W]

Your grandson was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and is of a socioeconomic class that represents a small minority of the population. In the near future, his job might disappear due to AI. Right now artificial intelligence is coding software, on its own. As I already stated, in the not-too-distant future, due to advanced automation, unemployment will force society to adopt a non-profit system of production, namely, socialism. It's inevitable.

I spot a problem you exhibit all the time. Assumptions you make are totally wrong.
First he was not born into a wealthy family. Second his brother makes a living changing tires on cars. And their dad, my son in law, made a decent living as a cop.
I have no clue how many computer engineers there are. But he works out of his home. And plans to relocate from the SF Bay area to Denver. Automation has long been practiced. Yes, even when I owned a machine shop that I liquidated in 1967, clearly the day of small shop automation was here, then. Not tomorrow, but then in 1967. I do not subscribe to the Chinese Communist fashion of thinking.

 

[Robert W]

And extremely little food, housing or medical care.

Communism makes everybody equal by bringing everybody down tot he lowest common denominator.

In the USA...even the so called "poor" live better than kings did 150 years ago!

I testify that I saw this in action in then, East Germany under communism. It was very heartbreaking to see such tight government control, fear by the population and the ruthless way they were governed under communism. No thanks, none of that for me.
I got to know a bit about Russian communism from two men. First a college teacher came from Russia after he fled when his family was shot to death. Second was a former officer in the Russian Army I got to know in CA after he was allowed to defect who also laid out how lousy communism is in real life. Why a person wants communism means they do not understand what it is.

 

[Red Front]

You are just not worth my time.

Runaway then.

 

[Red Front]

I spot a problem you exhibit all the time. Assumptions you make are totally wrong.
First he was not born into a wealthy family. Second his brother makes a living changing tires on cars. And their dad, my son in law, made a decent living as a cop.
I have no clue how many computer engineers there are. But he works out of his home. And plans to relocate from the SF Bay area to Denver. Automation has long been practiced. Yes, even when I owned a machine shop that I liquidated in 1967, clearly the day of small shop automation was here, then. Not tomorrow, but then in 1967. I do not subscribe to the Chinese Communist fashion of thinking.

I spot a problem you exhibit all the time. Assumptions you make are totally wrong.
First he was not born into a wealthy family. Second his brother makes a living changing tires on cars. And their dad, my son in law, made a decent living as a cop.I have no clue how many computer engineers there are. But he works out of his home. And plans to relocate from the SF Bay area to Denver.

OK, so his grandpa isn't a big-money capitalist millionaire, he's more of a mom-pop store owner. Nothing wrong with that, good for you. Your grandson was born and raised in a middle-class family. Got it. Why even mention your grandson to me? What's your point? How does that apply to what I'm saying about capitalism vs communism?

Automation has long been practiced.

Nothing in the past resembles the automation available today due to our computational power and artificial intelligence. Machines in the past, unlike today, needed to be operated by human beings. That's much less so today, due to our powerful computers and advanced AI.

Yes, even when I owned a machine shop that I liquidated in 1967, clearly the day of small shop automation was here, then. Not tomorrow, but then in 1967. I do not subscribe to the Chinese Communist fashion of thinking.

You're in Lalaland if you believe the automation we had available 56 years ago is equivalent to what we have today. Your smartphone today, in 2023, has more computational power than all of NASA in 1967.

 

[Red Front]

I testify that I saw this in action in then, East Germany under communism. It was very heartbreaking to see such tight government control, fear by the population and the ruthless way they were governed under communism. No thanks, none of that for me.
I got to know a bit about Russian communism from two men. First a college teacher came from Russia after he fled when his family was shot to death. Second was a former officer in the Russian Army I got to know in CA after he was allowed to defect who also laid out how lousy communism is in real life. Why a person wants communism means they do not understand what it is.

I testify that I saw this in action in then, East Germany under communism. It was very heartbreaking to see such tight government control, fear by the population and the ruthless way they were governed under communism. No thanks, none of that for me.
I got to know a bit about Russian communism from two men. First a college teacher came from Russia after he fled when his family was shot to death. Second was a former officer in the Russian Army I got to know in CA after he was allowed to defect who also laid out how lousy communism is in real life. Why a person wants communism means they do not understand what it is.

You're spewing campfire stories like your CIA buddies in the following three videos, who admit to fabricating scary fairytales about communists:

​

Here are Russians who lived in the USSR, giving their opinions about how life was under Soviet socialism:

Does Socialism Work? Soviet Citizens Speak About Their Lives in the USSR (Moscow)

The Human Face of Russia (1984) - society and everyday life in 1980s USSR​

The second largest political block in Russia is the communists. They're gradually but surely growing and will eventually become the majority.

​

"Following the election, United Russia maintained its constitutional majority despite some losses, taking 324 seats, while it received 49.82% of the vote, according to official results. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation received 57 seats and 18.93% of the vote, while A Just Russia For Truth received 27 seats and 7.46% of the vote, with the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia receiving 21 seats and 7.55% of the vote."

2021 Russian legislative election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The USSR was the UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS​

Do you see the word "communist" there anywhere? No.

Communism according to Karl Marx is a stateless society, without socioeconomic classes or the need for money. Humanity for tens of thousands of years, was practicing what Marx called "Primitive Communism":

​

Marx also spoke of "High-Communism", or high-tech communism, based mostly on advanced production technology:

\

Communism is the objective or aim of socialism. Far-left socialists, like myself, who identify as Marxist-Leninists, use the word "communist" and "communism" because that's the purpose and direction of our socialism. We are socialists, who are moving, evolving towards communism, hence we call ourselves communists and our ideology, communism (the Bible calls Christians "saints", even though they're not perfect yet. Sainthood in Christ is the objective, hence Christians will use words like "saint/s" to describe Christians). In principle, we are communists, but in practice, at the moment we are socialists. Far-left socialists. The USSR was a SOCIALIST REPUBLIC, not a communist republic.

​

All of the above is irrelevant to the points I made in my last five posts, with respect to how communism is the future of world production and economics, due to advanced automation. You're the one resorting to red herring, irrelevant arguments. You're unable to think rationally and recognize nuance or any complexity whatsoever when discussing complex issues.

 

[Thunk]

Runaway then.

Seriously...you are the turd that wouldn't flush!

 

[Red Front]

Seriously...you are the turd that wouldn't flush!

How so? Explain.

 

[Robert W]

You're spewing campfire stories like your CIA buddies in the following three videos, who admit to fabricating scary fairytales about communists:

​

Here are Russians who lived in the USSR, giving their opinions about how life was under Soviet socialism:

Does Socialism Work? Soviet Citizens Speak About Their Lives in the USSR (Moscow)

The Human Face of Russia (1984) - society and everyday life in 1980s USSR​

The second largest political block in Russia is the communists. They're gradually but surely growing and will eventually become the majority.

​

"Following the election, United Russia maintained its constitutional majority despite some losses, taking 324 seats, while it received 49.82% of the vote, according to official results. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation received 57 seats and 18.93% of the vote, while A Just Russia For Truth received 27 seats and 7.46% of the vote, with the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia receiving 21 seats and 7.55% of the vote."

2021 Russian legislative election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The USSR was the UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS​

Do you see the word "communist" there anywhere? No.

Communism according to Karl Marx is a stateless society, without socioeconomic classes or the need for money. Humanity for tens of thousands of years, was practicing what Marx called "Primitive Communism":

View attachment 814528

View attachment 814529

View attachment 814532

View attachment 814534
​

Marx also spoke of "High-Communism", or high-tech communism, based mostly on advanced production technology:

View attachment 814537

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View attachment 814540

View attachment 814536
View attachment 814541

View attachment 814554

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View attachment 814544
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View attachment 814548

View attachment 814546​

Communism is the objective or aim of socialism. Far-left socialists, like myself, who identify as Marxist-Leninists, use the word "communist" and "communism" because that's the purpose and direction of our socialism. We are socialists, who are moving, evolving towards communism, hence we call ourselves communists and our ideology, communism (the Bible calls Christians "saints", even though they're not perfect yet. Sainthood in Christ is the objective, hence Christians will use words like "saint/s" to describe Christians). In principle, we are communists, but in practice, at the moment we are socialists. Far-left socialists. The USSR was a SOCIALIST REPUBLIC, not a communist republic.

​

All of the above is irrelevant to the points I made in my last five posts, with respect to how communism is the future of world production and economics, due to advanced automation. You're the one resorting to red herring, irrelevant arguments. You're unable to think rationally and recognize nuance or any complexity whatsoever when discussing complex issues.

At least NOW you admit you promote being communist.

Again, no thanks. And can that crap how great life is for Russians. A lot of stores there shut down.