What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

What China practices isn't "Capitalism", it's state sponsored Corporatism. Or as know by it's original title, "Fascism".

Not a model I want to copy.

BO just took over health care. Is that fascism? China is 1000% times more competitive and market oriented than under Mao. THey now buy more cars than we do. Capitalism once again changed history in an instant and ended liberal slow starvation. Did you think starvation was fun???

Too stupid they copied us and Adam Smith. We don't have to copy them, we are 50 years ahead with our standard of living!! where have you been???
 
You are obtuse. Reagan created as much debt in 8 years as all the previous president...COMBINED.

dear, Reagan was merely the president, not the government. Did you know there are other branches of government, plus the press, and the people?? See why we say liberals are very very slow??

Obama didn't get a public option or single payer despite a super majority. Does that mean he is not for them??
 
Until the OP sees the difference between Ron Paul and Ronald Reagan, we are in terrible shape.... (because he votes)

there is no difference in ideology. In practice, Republicans compromise to get elected, often do get elected, and often do wield power.

Libertarians don't compromise, don't get elected, and so are perfectly impotent
 
You're a pig if you are claiming they were better off before.

Well you're a pig anyway...

I'm saying for your average Chinese, it kind of sucked living there, and it kind of sucks living there now. They still have a billion people in grinding poverty. Same as it was under the Communists, the Guamoutang, the Manchus, and so on.

A few people are rich, and the government is becoming worried that they will stir up the kind of class envy and disorder that put the Communists in charge to start with. So they cancel TV shows celebrating wealth and replace them with shows celebrating labor.

Oh, another thing. The bunch currently running China are still oppressing Christians... So they can't be all bad.
 
You're a pig if you are claiming they were better off before.

Well you're a pig anyway...

I'm saying for your average Chinese, it kind of sucked living there, and it kind of sucks living there now. They still have a billion people in grinding poverty. Same as it was under the Communists, the Guamoutang, the Manchus, and so on.

A few people are rich, and the government is becoming worried that they will stir up the kind of class envy and disorder that put the Communists in charge to start with. So they cancel TV shows celebrating wealth and replace them with shows celebrating labor.

Oh, another thing. The bunch currently running China are still oppressing Christians... So they can't be all bad.

The living standards of the typical Chinese poor person is much better than it was a generation ago. Working sweatshops is a much better living than subsistence agriculture. That's why 100 million Chinese have migrated from the rural areas to the coasts and the cities - they have a much better living.
 
Until the OP sees the difference between Ron Paul and Ronald Reagan, we are in terrible shape.... (because he votes)

there is no difference in ideology. In practice, Republicans compromise to get elected, often do get elected, and often do wield power.

Libertarians don't compromise, don't get elected, and so are perfectly impotent

If you think there is no difference in ideology between Ron Paul and Ron Reagan, you don't know much.
 
The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Why is it that so many Conservatives don't see how their party increased the size, budget, and power of Washington. Indeed, some of their most respected leaders have grown government much larger than anything imagined by Carter, Clinton, or Obama. They don't know the truth because they get their news from [wait for it] government, i.e., movement conservatism, which is an interlocking set of doctrinal structures that stretch from think tanks & publishing groups to the blogosphere and FOX News.

Look at Reagan's slice of the Cold War. He used it as a context for globalization, i.e., he used the Soviet Threat to pull developing nations under America's protective wing. In crude terms, he used the IMF to make structural adjustment loans to countries who had valuable assets. Corruptible representatives from those countries would strategically default on those loans, than the U.S. would gain leverage over their markets (i.e., open them to foreign investment). Reagan did all over the glove, especially in South America, Africa, and the Middle East. In each case he grew Washington's size and reach. He didn't just create a Washington big enough to manage the USA; nope, he created one big enough to manage the globe. In simple terms, heincreased the Pentagon's budget so that he could stabilize the 3rd world, so that he could protect and expand necessary markets. The point remains the same: he used the Cold War to grow the size, budget, and power of Washington more than anything his democratic predecessor ever dreamed.

Jimmy Carter lamented American involvement in the Middle East. He didn't think Washington had the resources to stabilize the Muslim world. He simply didn't have that kind of faith in the power of government to control the globe for its energy resources. He launched the most ambitious alternative energy and conservation plan in order to get Washington out of the middle east. He predicted that some day the Washington investment in Petroleum (as opposed to alternatives and conservation) would lead to bankruptcy in places like Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan.

Reagan laughed at Carter. He trusted Big Government's ability to control world events. He didn't seek independence from the middle easy - nope. He convinced CONSERVATIVES that Washington could control and stabilize the middle east. He doubled down on the region, increasing American bases tenfold. And he made sure that the military investment in the middle east was severed from the cost of oil, so that the market would not send the wrong price signals, causing investments to flow into alternative fuels. Reagan convinced his loyal, obedient conservatives that Washington was competent enough to police the globe.

And then comes George W Bush. He convinced conservative voters that Washington was powerful enough to rebuild the greater middle east. Washington can't run a laundromat, yet conservatives gave it the power to change the way the muslim world lives. As if Washington was powerful and competent enough to force Islam into western modernity.

Watch what happens when the GOP re-takes Washington next January. Next stop Iran. They don't want a Washington big enough to control the 50 states, nope - they want a Washington big enough to control whole other continents.

Listen, I would love to save the world and spread utopian freedom to everyone. But I don't trust government to do such big things. I believe if you give government a concentrated lever of power, than you increase the chances that a fallible bureaucrat will misuse that power. This is why I don't want the power to exist in the first place. Because once you create a government agency - around the weapons industry - that agency begins to grow and feed only itself. It becomes a self perpetuating budget drag where parasitic special interests form and rot the taxpayers wallet from the core.

The Cold War and the War on Terrorism grew Washington's power more than anything ever imagined by the Left. Bush (and Obama, Bush junior) used the War on Terrorism to create the largest, most expensive, most secretive bureaucracy ever - the Department of Homeland Security, which is growing beyond control. A hidden world, growing beyond control | washingtonpost.com

The problem with the original poster is that he doesn't realize that his party has expanded the power of Washington more than any in history. He needs to turn off talk radio and take university course in how the Cold War and War on Terrorism put Washington on steroids. If he cared about small government, he would puke every time Reagan's name was mentioned. He would go back to the old isolationist conservatives who opposed the big liberal world improvers, FDR and Truman.

Until the OP sees the difference between Ron Paul and Ronald Reagan, we are in terrible shape.... (because he votes)

Hey, Sparky, did you know that there IS no "Conservative Party" in the US? Maybe if you learned the difference between "conservatives" and "Republicans", people wouldn't have to spend so much time and energy viewing you with contempt. Just a little service you could offer your fellow man, if it's not too much trouble.
Welcome to the American Conservative Party
 
i dispute the REpublicans are doing it more slowly. Who makes you more in need of a safety net, the guy who puts up the net or the guy who pushes you off the platform to need it?

The problem is the Republicans are Pro-Business at the cost of being anti-worker, anti-consumer and and average guy. And when Romney and his sort destroy those nice union jobs at AmPad and replace them with McJobs at Staples, they make people more dependent on government.

The fact the businessman makes out for now isn't going to help them when those folks finally get democrats with enough balls to say, "Yeah, let's up the taxes on the rich."

As long as you acknowledge that is your opinion unsupportable by any known data in the universe, I will accept it as your opinion.

I will also say that (most) Republicans believe that promoting, encouraging, and helping business succeed is the finest form of compasion and assistance a country can give to the worker, the consumer, and the average guy including the poorest guy. It goes back to the old concept of giving people a fish that once consumed leaves them in need of another fish. And people being people, once they discover that there are free fish to be had, will vote for those who will keep those free fish coming, most especially if they are promised even more or bigger fish. The fact that the fish must be provided by somebody who is working to catch the fish doesn't bother the giver or receiver in the least. Until the fisherman becomes weary of having so many of his fish confiscated and decides it is easier to just not fish and take the free fish.

The Republicans, at least the conservative ones, see the better road as teachong somebody to fish and making it possible and profitable to do so. And because his destiny is then in his hands, and there is profit to be made in fishing, and no profit to be made by not fishing, he will fish and be grateful for the opportunity to do so.

The difference between you and me is likely which of these two scenarios is the most caring, compassionate, honorable, profitable, and fairest to all concerned.

What a pile of self righteous manure. Conservatives believe in teaching? Give me a fucking break.

Conservatives believe in punishment...PERIOD. There is never a single penny of human capital in any of their solutions. Conservatives idea of teaching people to swim is to throw them in the river, the ones that survive are 'taught'
A liberal will concoct schemes to "help" people in their selected protected classes.
Thier schemes invariably require others fund the scheme.
Never will liberals lead by example, fund the program themselves through private donations to see how it works out. Nope. It's always "you must pay for these things to make US feel better about our noble efforts".
When faced with the suggestion of self help, liberals often explode into a rage. The result are canned responses such as " selfish" "wealthy" "the rich" "corporate" "white". All nicely packaged buzz terms to incite class envy and class warfare.

In the early part of the 20th century we had this little thing called the Great Depression. Contrary to today's entitlement minded social program collectors, those people were eager to work. They took menial jobs with the prospect of earning a living to support themselves and their families. Not today. Programs such as the WPA would be found with empty recruitment offices.
Give a man a fish and he eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
This notion offends you liberals to your very core.
 
Liberals haven't been brainwashed to think OUR government is the problem. It is the corporations control of our government that is the problem. That is what we want to go away. Not our government.

Republicans won't come out and admit it, but they want to do away with the commons. Let private companies run everything.

Meanwhile, the other day I take 6 gift cards the size of credit cards to UPS to have them shipped to Switzerland. So basically nothing. Total cost? $60. US Post Office? Less than $10.

Republicans want to do away with public schools, social security, medicare. They just won't come out and say it out loud.

Radical Republicans, which are all of them, would even privatize Yellowstone Park or the Grand Canyon.

And when we say republicans are wrong about everything, let me be clear that I'm not talking about rich Republicans. Millionaire or billionaire, you are not wrong. I understand why you want the Bush tax breaks. I understand why you hate the EPA. You have corporations and you want to pollute. I understand why you like free trade and hiring illegals. I understand why you hate unions. They make you pay a fair wage. And I understand why you use wedge issues like god gays and guns to sucker middle class voters into voting against their own financial interests. Brilliant really! And how you use racism to keep the south voting GOP? Who can blame you.

Its the middle class voters who vote GOP that I can't stand. So stupid. Voting with the rich like you benefit. What a joke. They screwed you guys over too the last 12 years and still you defend the party for the rich.

One party represents the rich, the other represents the working class. If that isn't clear to everyone by now, this is what makes arguing with Republicans so frustrating.
 
120m4471.jpg

Your chart is fucking laughable.

I like how you fail to or give credit to the congress. But only when it suits your fucking pathetic partisan needs.

OK.

Reagan had the Senate for 6 years, and public support to back it up. Which means Democrats only controlled 1/2 of one branch for all that time. Yet they managed to rack up all that debt.

George W Bush had control of the House for 6 years, and full control of Congress for 4 years, and still managed to rack up all that debt.

So, there goes that theory...
 
A liberal will concoct schemes to "help" people in their selected protected classes.
Thier schemes invariably require others fund the scheme.
Never will liberals lead by example, fund the program themselves through private donations to see how it works out. Nope. It's always "you must pay for these things to make US feel better about our noble efforts".
When faced with the suggestion of self help, liberals often explode into a rage. The result are canned responses such as " selfish" "wealthy" "the rich" "corporate" "white". All nicely packaged buzz terms to incite class envy and class warfare.

In the early part of the 20th century we had this little thing called the Great Depression. Contrary to today's entitlement minded social program collectors, those people were eager to work. They took menial jobs with the prospect of earning a living to support themselves and their families. Not today. Programs such as the WPA would be found with empty recruitment offices.
Give a man a fish and he eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
This notion offends you liberals to your very core.

I see...

Well, the reason most liberals don't want to leave charity to private donations is that private donations tend to be made to select groups of people, rather than those that need it the most.

For example: Given the choice between helping out some people who are somewhat poor in their town, and helping out people who are literally starving one state over, private donors will generally choose the local donation.

And given the choice between helping people who look like them, and people that don't look like them, private donors almost universally favor the former.

But, leaving that alone for a minute...

Are you claiming that it's Liberals only who wouldn't do the menial labor jobs that a WPA plan would offer?

So, conservative, NASCAR, trailer-trash poor types would jump at the chance to do those jobs then?

I'm going to call bullshit on that one.
 
The living standards of the typical Chinese poor person is much better than it was a generation ago. Working sweatshops is a much better living than subsistence agriculture. That's why 100 million Chinese have migrated from the rural areas to the coasts and the cities - they have a much better living.

Yeah, so that's why so many of these folks are killing themselves... because they are just so happy being exploited by MNC.

I live for the day we hang Outsourcers as the traitors they are.
 
The living standards of the typical Chinese poor person is much better than it was a generation ago. Working sweatshops is a much better living than subsistence agriculture. That's why 100 million Chinese have migrated from the rural areas to the coasts and the cities - they have a much better living.

Yeah, so that's why so many of these folks are killing themselves... because they are just so happy being exploited by MNC.

I live for the day we hang Outsourcers as the traitors they are.

Head go BOOM!

Capitalism sure is evil, eh uber-RINO?
 
You're both right,

Capitalism has absolutely brought prosperity to a great many Chinese. Your average big city scene throughout China is this: obviously healthy, well dressed, well fed people and lots and lots of motorized scooters, automobiles, and other vehicles. It is one of the various reasons that oil prices are so high.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWFtj054gyg]Streets of Beijing, China - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8hsBfotV0]Rush hour traffic from bridge in Beijing, China - YouTube[/ame]

News Update: Massive China Traffic Jam - YouTube

In the poorer, rural areas where few American tourists are likely to go (or are even allowed to go) there is still crushing poverty, however. The disparity between rich and poor in Communist China far exceeds the disparity that capitalism has produced anywhere else.
 
Why is it that so many Conservatives don't see how their party increased the size, budget, and power of Washington.

of course that is perfectly idiotic. Republicans, most of whom are conservative, have been for reduced or limited government since Jefferson founded the party in 1792. This is why for example they have introduced 30 Balanced Budget Amendments. Newts passed in the House and fell one vote short in the Senate. Do you know what our debt would be today were in not for the dastardly Democrats?

You are obtuse. Reagan created as much debt in 8 years as all the previous president...COMBINED.

Paul O'Neill - George Bush's first Treasury Secretary


The president had promised to cut taxes, and he did. Within six months of taking office, he pushed a trillion dollars worth of tax cuts through Congress.

But O'Neill thought it should have been the end. After 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan, the budget deficit was growing. So at a meeting with the vice president after the mid-term elections in 2002, Suskind writes that O'Neill argued against a second round of tax cuts.

"Cheney, at this moment, shows his hand," says Suskind. "He says, 'You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.' … O'Neill is speechless."

"It was not just about not wanting the tax cut. It was about how to use the nation's resources to improve the condition of our society," says O'Neill. "And I thought the weight of working on Social Security and fundamental tax reform was a lot more important than a tax reduction."

Did he think it was irresponsible? "Well, it's for sure not what I would have done," says O'Neill.

120m4471.jpg



Now that the black Democratic President is ringing up the debt just as good as Bushes and Reagan did, all of a sudden, its a huge issue for the right.

Its funny how they have no problem electing fiscally irresponsible Presidents that are white.


Of course - standards always change when the blacks show up. Now all of a sudden its bad for a President to take a vacation and even bad for him to bother the people for the secret service he takes along - and now, all of a sudden, every Presidential candidate should submit a birth certificate, whereas before the People depended on the Electors and Congress to prevent inelgile candidates from winning.
 
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You mean like the way anyone receiving public assistance is a welfare cheat and all union workers are lazy, overpaid slobs?

I've never seen a conservative claim everyone on welfare is a cheat or that union workers are lazy. However we now have the highest percentage of people taking government entitlements than ever in our history. Do you really believe nearly half the population cannot provide for themselves any longer without hand outs? Our poor have a standard of living that is middle class on the global scale and was middle class in this country less than 50 years ago. Do you really believe the rise in standard of living in any country is brought about by government hand outs? If so you are clueless about the nature of growing wealth. Government does not bring about a rise in the standard of living -growing the ranks of financially independent people does. An economic fact. The more wealthy people there are, the more upward pressure on wages for everyone, the more upward pressure on standard of living for everyone. Even when we don't personally earn it, the more wealthy people there are the more we ALL benefit. Likewise the fewer there are and the more poor there are -the more downward pressure on both wages and standard of living.

Obama is the most left wing extremist we've had in office since Carter and is arguably even further to the left. We have more people on government hand outs than ever -we have the highest rate of poverty since they started keeping public tracking of it more than 50 years ago. The left grows poverty -they claim to represent the interests of the poor and insist the right does not. The poor is who the left sees as their power base -of course they want more poor because they believe it empowers them politically. They play a tricky dance of both pursuing known poverty growing policies -while trying to convince those falling into poverty it is the fault of those who don't support those poverty growing policies.

I believe the left on this-they claim to represent the poor and it stands to reason they believe having more poor benefits them politically. Listen to their class warfare language where they try to encourage the poor to view wealth and financial independence as something shameful, something people shoul apologize for -and as the very people to blame for their lot in life as financially dependent on government. The left absolutely believes those who are dependent on government hand outs are more easily manipulated into blaming others for their lot in life and easier to buy their votes by promising to increase their hand out in drips and drabs. This is no secret but part of their own game plan as wriiten out by leftists radicals themselves. Financially independent people are also more content, more satisfied with their lives-and far less readily politically manipulated. Now claiming to speak for the poor in no way means they actually represent their best interests because no one in their right mind EXCEPT the left believes a life of financial dependency on government is a good thing. Look at the viciousness of their resistance at the notion of encouraging people to seek financial independence off government hand outs. Which explains why the Obama administration is right now running ads encouraging MORE people to get on food stamps. One ad brags it would actually make the recipient more physically fit -a massive big ass fucking lie. Obesity is the biggest health problem facing those on welfare and food stamps. A fact that totally contradicts the real definition of poverty as used internationally where the most serious problems of the real poor is first a lack of calories-not a glut of them. Food stamps do not equal "healthier" choices -so who benefits by encouraging more people to become dependent on government? The left-which believes those on hand outs are largely their natural constituents. Wanting more poor and more dependent on government and fewer who are independent - is just doing the simple math. Cloaking their real intent in a phony pretense of "caring" more than their opponents even as they work to create more poor and more who are more financially dependent on government works for many -it is a sweet tasting poison to many. But still poison nonetheless.

It is one of many, many, many reasons I could never be a liberal. I'm with those who believe we all benefit when there are more successful people, not fewer and when as few as possible are financially dependent on government, not more. You liberals -think about what you even say. You claim Republicans represent the wealthy and financially independent and not the poor. Then likewise doesn't it also stand to reason having FEWER poor people and MORE financially independent and successful citizens works to their political advantage?

Critical thinking skills are so useful in life. But sadly in short supply among liberals.
 
You mean like the way anyone receiving public assistance is a welfare cheat and all union workers are lazy, overpaid slobs?

I've never seen a conservative claim everyone on welfare is a cheat or that union workers are lazy. However we now have the highest percentage of people taking government entitlements than ever in our history. Do you really believe nearly half the population cannot provide for themselves any longer without hand outs?. . . .

And here we have one of the most frustrating issues of all when it comes to discussing these things with liberals.

The conservative knows how much the entitlement mentality is making whole groups of Americans dependent on government charity, is creating whole groups of permanently unemployed and too often unemployable, and eroding American virtues of self reliance, personal responsibility, accountability, and initiative. But when the conservative points out the truth of that, complete with examples and evidence, including the fact that the union mentality/activity in modern times is hurting more people than it helps, he or she is almost immediately confronted with the ignorant and hateful statements that we see all welfare recipients as cheats and all union workers as lazy.

How can you have a decent discussion when dealing with that?
 
you can't. I don't bother trying to *discuss* things with leftist whackos anymore. I just point out the lies and ignorance, and continue to shine a lot on tyrannical governments throughout modern history who have depended heavily on these people to attack freedom and human rights.
 

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