What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[Toro]

they all start when someone greedy decides to game the system and the rest of us are dumb enough to let them do it.

if so why be so afraid to give your best single example of this? what does your fear tell you? Have you had Econ 101 at least, or are you just a lazy liberal who wants to pretend you understand even when you've done no work to really understand?

How about the whole fucking banking fiasco, meathead? The one where they took toxic loans, bundled them with bad loans, sold them off as derivitives to unsuspecting investors.

You really are clueless. You have no idea what happened.

 

[Foxfyre]

This post is so generic and full of shit, I don't know where to start...

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.

What say you?

Name one liberal on this board who has an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats of Dem voters who have an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats that show it is liberals who have an entitlement mentality. There's a start...off you go...

So your answers to the questions that you left out would be 'no'. Correct?

Your response was a classic non sequitur since what you quoted didn't mention the liberal's point of view re an entitlement mentality at all. It did give you a strong invitation to arrticulate one.

And THAT is why arguing with liberals is so frustrating.

 

[Toro]

This post is so generic and full of shit, I don't know where to start...

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.

What say you?

Name one liberal on this board who has an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats of Dem voters who have an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats that show it is liberals who have an entitlement mentality. There's a start...off you go...

JoeB thinks that capitalists owe him a job.

Of course, he claims to be a Republican ...

 

[Dr Grump]

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.

What say you?

Name one liberal on this board who has an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats of Dem voters who have an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats that show it is liberals who have an entitlement mentality. There's a start...off you go...

So your answers to the questions that you left out would be 'no'. Correct?

Your response was a classic non sequitur since what you quoted didn't mention the liberal's point of view re an entitlement mentality at all. It did give you a strong invitation to arrticulate one.

And THAT is why arguing with liberals is so frustrating.

Nice way to avoid my points. You are allowed to say "I don't have that information" you know. It's no biggie, my expectations were far from high.

Talk about frustrating. Typical conservatives, make generalisations with no info to back it up...again, not unexpected...

 

[Dr Grump]

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.

What say you?

Name one liberal on this board who has an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats of Dem voters who have an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats that show it is liberals who have an entitlement mentality. There's a start...off you go...

JoeB thinks that capitalists owe him a job.

Of course, he claims to be a Republican ...

I think Joe is a sock puppet stirrer..that's what I think..

That aside, there seems to be this myth surrounding liberals and entitlement. George Cloony, Sean Penn and even Steven Speilberg are accused of being liberals. Do you see them asking for entitlements? on this board, Jillian is a liberal. What entitlements is she after?

And let's go back the other way. what do you call conservative big businesses asking for tax breaks? Aren't they asking for entitlements, too?

 

[Foxfyre]

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.

What say you?

Name one liberal on this board who has an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats of Dem voters who have an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats that show it is liberals who have an entitlement mentality. There's a start...off you go...

JoeB thinks that capitalists owe him a job.

Of course, he claims to be a Republican ...

I don't really care what JoeB or Dr Grump or any other leftists think. (And I don't believe JoeB is a Republican at all since he is about 10 miles left of even Olympia Snowe. )

I also know a two or three liberals/leftists who post at USMB who really can articulate a rationale for most of their opinions. But lordy they are rare. You usually get responses like JoeB and Grump just offered and it is frustrating. They divert, dodge weave, throw in a non sequitur or red herring, build a straw man, or do everything but stand on their heads to keep from addressing a point. Why? The only reason I can come up with is they absolutely are incapable of articulating a rationale for the opinions they hold. I keep hoping somebody will prove me wrong about that.

 

[Dr Grump]

Name one liberal on this board who has an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats of Dem voters who have an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats that show it is liberals who have an entitlement mentality. There's a start...off you go...

JoeB thinks that capitalists owe him a job.

Of course, he claims to be a Republican ...

I don't really care what JoeB or Dr Grump or any other leftists think. (And I don't believe JoeB is a Republican at all since he is about 10 miles left of even Olympia Snowe. )

I also know a two or three liberals/leftists who post at USMB who really can articulate a rationale for most of their opinions. But lordy they are rare. You usually get responses like JoeB and Grump just offered and it is frustrating. They divert, dodge weave, throw in a non sequitur or red herring, build a straw man, or do everything but stand on their heads to keep from addressing a point. Why? The only reason I can come up with is they absolutely are incapable of articulating a rationale for the opinions they hold. I keep hoping somebody will prove me wrong about that.

Hi Pot, my name is Kettle....

 

[Foxfyre]

JoeB thinks that capitalists owe him a job.

Of course, he claims to be a Republican ...

I don't really care what JoeB or Dr Grump or any other leftists think. (And I don't believe JoeB is a Republican at all since he is about 10 miles left of even Olympia Snowe. )

I also know a two or three liberals/leftists who post at USMB who really can articulate a rationale for most of their opinions. But lordy they are rare. You usually get responses like JoeB and Grump just offered and it is frustrating. They divert, dodge weave, throw in a non sequitur or red herring, build a straw man, or do everything but stand on their heads to keep from addressing a point. Why? The only reason I can come up with is they absolutely are incapable of articulating a rationale for the opinions they hold. I keep hoping somebody will prove me wrong about that.

Hi Pot, my name is Kettle....

I will be happy to address any objective--that's OBJECTIVE, not some silly abusive/insulting talking point--observation you wish to make. I WON'T be diverted from the point I am making however. Now please go back to the post you didn't respond to and see if you can respond.

I'll state it again:

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.

What say you?

 

[Toro]

Name one liberal on this board who has an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats of Dem voters who have an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats that show it is liberals who have an entitlement mentality. There's a start...off you go...

JoeB thinks that capitalists owe him a job.

Of course, he claims to be a Republican ...

I think Joe is a sock puppet stirrer..that's what I think..

That aside, there seems to be this myth surrounding liberals and entitlement. George Cloony, Sean Penn and even Steven Speilberg are accused of being liberals. Do you see them asking for entitlements? on this board, Jillian is a liberal. What entitlements is she after?

And let's go back the other way. what do you call conservative big businesses asking for tax breaks? Aren't they asking for entitlements, too?

Coming from a Commonwealth nation such as yourself, I would make a slightly different observation. I believe that many leftists do have an entitlement mentality, and I would use the term leftist in a Commonwealth context, where there is a difference between a liberal and a socialist.

In America, what they usually mean is that liberals believe in social programs, and thus believe people are entitled to the work of others. So even though Jillian and other liberals may not have an entitlement mentality themselves, conservatives argue that they believe in a system which fosters an entitlement mentality amongst the general population.

 

[Dr Grump]

[

I will be happy to address any objective--that's OBJECTIVE, not some silly abusive/insulting talking point--observation you wish to make. I WON'T be diverted from the point I am making however. Now please go back to the post you didn't respond to and see if you can respond.

I'll state it again:

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.

What say you?

For a start there was no insult. If you can point it out, do so.

In order for your point to be relevent it has to be a fact first. You seem to think there is some 'disconnect' between an 'entitlement' mentality of the 'left' and 'rught'. I want to know what the disconnect supposedly is. You have given what you consider to be the conservative POV, but you have not given the liberal point of view. Until you do, there is nothing to answer but supposition. We would also have to decide what an entitlement is....

 

[Foxfyre]

JoeB thinks that capitalists owe him a job.

Of course, he claims to be a Republican ...

I think Joe is a sock puppet stirrer..that's what I think..

That aside, there seems to be this myth surrounding liberals and entitlement. George Cloony, Sean Penn and even Steven Speilberg are accused of being liberals. Do you see them asking for entitlements? on this board, Jillian is a liberal. What entitlements is she after?

And let's go back the other way. what do you call conservative big businesses asking for tax breaks? Aren't they asking for entitlements, too?

Coming from a Commonwealth nation such as yourself, I would make a slightly different observation. I believe that many leftists do have an entitlement mentality, and I would use the term leftist in a Commonwealth context, where there is a difference between a liberal and a socialist.

In America, what they usually mean is that liberals believe in social programs, and thus believe people are entitled to the work of others. So even though Jillian and other liberals may not have an entitlement mentality themselves, conservatives argue that they believe in a system which fosters an entitlement mentality amongst the general population.

Conservatives see an entitlement as any program that transfers earnings from one person to another on an ongoing basis to diffentiate from one time grants or periodic subsidies. Social Security and Medicare are not entitlements UNTIL the benefits paid out of these programs exceed the contributions paid in and/or are paid to people who didn't pay in. At that point, the government is confiscating property lawfully and ethically earned by some Americans and given to the others who did not earn it.

Tax breaks are not the same thing in that a tax break or credit simply allows those who earned the money to keep more of what they earned, It is not taking money away from somebody and giving it to somebody else. It may be a wrong thing to do as it allows government to grant favors to some while not granting favors to others--this is always a dangerous thing--but it is not an entitlement.

 

[Dr Grump]

JoeB thinks that capitalists owe him a job.

Of course, he claims to be a Republican ...

I think Joe is a sock puppet stirrer..that's what I think..

That aside, there seems to be this myth surrounding liberals and entitlement. George Cloony, Sean Penn and even Steven Speilberg are accused of being liberals. Do you see them asking for entitlements? on this board, Jillian is a liberal. What entitlements is she after?

And let's go back the other way. what do you call conservative big businesses asking for tax breaks? Aren't they asking for entitlements, too?

Coming from a Commonwealth nation such as yourself, I would make a slightly different observation. I believe that many leftists do have an entitlement mentality, and I would use the term leftist in a Commonwealth context, where there is a difference between a liberal and a socialist.

In America, what they usually mean is that liberals believe in social programs, and thus believe people are entitled to the work of others. So even though Jillian and other liberals may not have an entitlement mentality themselves, conservatives argue that they believe in a system which fosters an entitlement mentality amongst the general population.

Yeah, well just to add to the confusion, in Australia the Labor party is our version of the Dems, and the Liberal party is our version of the GoP.

I disagree. I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff not a hammock. There is nothing wrong with a safety net. Countries that don't have them include the likes of India, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Mexico...so that is the end game if you don't have some social programmes in place.

There needs to be a fine line. I find US conservatives basically believe people should live off the bones of their arse if they don't have a job. That would never work. You have to give people hope. I know people who have been unemployed and gotten the dole (unemployment) and they hated every minute of it. They were both Labor and Liberal voters.

Foxfyre is also assuming that anybody who benefits from a social programme is a liberal, to which I say, 'prove it'.

Is there generational unemployment and sense of entitlement amongst some families? Sure. Are they liberals? Who the fuck knows. I don't, and neither does FF...

 

[P@triot]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

I think for the most part all liberals and conservatives do agree on those items you mentioned. Clearly there are fringe on both sides, but for the most part, we are in agreement.

The problem comes when we talk about how the government can be a useful servant to the people's needs. For example, as a liberal, I am in favour of temporary food stamps and student loans for college. Many "conservatives" are against both of those, claiming it leads to big government.

So what do we do then?

I'll tell you what we do DontBeStupid. *We follow the United States Constitution. *Our problems are not liberal views vs conservatives principles. *Our problems are, liberals believe they are above the law and they literally have disdain for the very document that has given them their freedom in the greatest nation in world history.

Obamcare is the perfect example. *You known it's illegal. *I know it's illegal. *Obama himself knows it's illegal. *And yet he spits in the face of the American people and literally forces it through like a little Saddam Hussein. *He spits in the face of the people who died to protect the freedoms and rights contained within that document - including a limited government of the people and by the people.

The irony of course is that our founding fathers were so brilliant, they actually built a system that allows for their laws to be removed and new laws added. *Just get the proper votes, and you can amend the Constitution to grant the federal government the power to force citizens to purchase a good or service. *The other irony is that while a conservative like George W. Bush is in office, the liberal screams their head off about him being a criminal, blah, blah, blah. *I can't help but laugh. *You're the idiots who keep advocating for the President and/or the federal government to have more power while your man is in office, then you cry the loudest when the other party's man wields that power. *STOP GIVING THEM POWER!!! *The United States will always give you a George W. Bush. *That should be reason alone for a liberal to crave small, limited government and personal responsibility. *But they don't. *Liberals are willing to trade their freedom for a few stupid "freebies" like subsidized housing and Obamacare.

 

[jillian]

I think Joe is a sock puppet stirrer..that's what I think..

That aside, there seems to be this myth surrounding liberals and entitlement. George Cloony, Sean Penn and even Steven Speilberg are accused of being liberals. Do you see them asking for entitlements? on this board, Jillian is a liberal. What entitlements is she after?

And let's go back the other way. what do you call conservative big businesses asking for tax breaks? Aren't they asking for entitlements, too?

Coming from a Commonwealth nation such as yourself, I would make a slightly different observation. I believe that many leftists do have an entitlement mentality, and I would use the term leftist in a Commonwealth context, where there is a difference between a liberal and a socialist.

In America, what they usually mean is that liberals believe in social programs, and thus believe people are entitled to the work of others. So even though Jillian and other liberals may not have an entitlement mentality themselves, conservatives argue that they believe in a system which fosters an entitlement mentality amongst the general population.

Yeah, well just to add to the confusion, in Australia the Labor party is our version of the Dems, and the Liberal party is our version of the GoP.

I disagree. I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff not a hammock. There is nothing wrong with a safety net. Countries that don't have them include the likes of India, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Mexico...so that is the end game if you don't have some social programmes in place.

There needs to be a fine line. I find US conservatives basically believe people should live off the bones of their arse if they don't have a job. That would never work. You have to give people hope. I know people who have been unemployed and gotten the dole (unemployment) and they hated every minute of it. They were both Labor and Liberal voters.

Foxfyre is also assuming that anybody who benefits from a social programme is a liberal, to which I say, 'prove it'.

Is there generational unemployment and sense of entitlement amongst some families? Sure. Are they liberals? Who the fuck knows. I don't, and neither does FF...

just to interject for a moment. i think it's really important to point out that foxy's supposition is a fabrication. if it weren't, red states would be paying more into the federal system than they take and blue states would be taking more than they put in. instead, the truth is the opposite.

it's like willow railing against entitlements while she collects social security.

 

[Foxfyre]

Coming from a Commonwealth nation such as yourself, I would make a slightly different observation. I believe that many leftists do have an entitlement mentality, and I would use the term leftist in a Commonwealth context, where there is a difference between a liberal and a socialist.

In America, what they usually mean is that liberals believe in social programs, and thus believe people are entitled to the work of others. So even though Jillian and other liberals may not have an entitlement mentality themselves, conservatives argue that they believe in a system which fosters an entitlement mentality amongst the general population.

Yeah, well just to add to the confusion, in Australia the Labor party is our version of the Dems, and the Liberal party is our version of the GoP.

I disagree. I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff not a hammock. There is nothing wrong with a safety net. Countries that don't have them include the likes of India, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Mexico...so that is the end game if you don't have some social programmes in place.

There needs to be a fine line. I find US conservatives basically believe people should live off the bones of their arse if they don't have a job. That would never work. You have to give people hope. I know people who have been unemployed and gotten the dole (unemployment) and they hated every minute of it. They were both Labor and Liberal voters.

Foxfyre is also assuming that anybody who benefits from a social programme is a liberal, to which I say, 'prove it'.

Is there generational unemployment and sense of entitlement amongst some families? Sure. Are they liberals? Who the fuck knows. I don't, and neither does FF...

just to interject for a moment. i think it's really important to point out that foxy's supposition is a fabrication. if it weren't, red states would be paying more into the federal system than they take and blue states would be taking more than they put in. instead, the truth is the opposite.

it's like willow railing against entitlements while she collects social security.

It is not at all supposition and it doesn't have anything at all to do with red states or blue states as there will be liberals and conservatives found in all 50 states. But here is another deflection shifting the focus to how people vote rather than focus on whether entitlements are a good thing or bad thing at face value. And that is why discussing most social/political principles with most liberals is so frustrating to me. Just like Grump accusing me of what I assume about anyone benefitting from a social program being a liberal. I never said or suggested such a thing. He cannot or will not focus on the principle I have offered to him now. Twice. Frustrating.

 

[Dr Grump]

Yeah, well just to add to the confusion, in Australia the Labor party is our version of the Dems, and the Liberal party is our version of the GoP.

I disagree. I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff not a hammock. There is nothing wrong with a safety net. Countries that don't have them include the likes of India, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Mexico...so that is the end game if you don't have some social programmes in place.

There needs to be a fine line. I find US conservatives basically believe people should live off the bones of their arse if they don't have a job. That would never work. You have to give people hope. I know people who have been unemployed and gotten the dole (unemployment) and they hated every minute of it. They were both Labor and Liberal voters.

Foxfyre is also assuming that anybody who benefits from a social programme is a liberal, to which I say, 'prove it'.

Is there generational unemployment and sense of entitlement amongst some families? Sure. Are they liberals? Who the fuck knows. I don't, and neither does FF...

just to interject for a moment. i think it's really important to point out that foxy's supposition is a fabrication. if it weren't, red states would be paying more into the federal system than they take and blue states would be taking more than they put in. instead, the truth is the opposite.

it's like willow railing against entitlements while she collects social security.

It is not at all supposition and it doesn't have anything at all to do with red states or blue states as there will be liberals and conservatives found in all 50 state. But here is another deflecvtion shifting the focus to how people vote rather than focus on whether entitlements are a good thing or bad thing at face value. And again, THAT is what I find so frustrating in discussing almost anything with most liberals. They simply cannot or will not articulate a rationale for a principle. Instead they deflect, accuse, blame. . . .

At face value, some entitlements are good, some are bad.

And I disagree with you as to the definition of an entitlement. A company wanting tax breaks, say, over your Average Joe, is asking for an entitlement.

Taxes are not a yes or no proposition. A tax system is necessary for a functioning democracy or republic...so your argument saying it 'ain't the same' is a strawman. Everybody has to pay taxes, even your founding fathers knew that...

 

[M14 Shooter]

Coming from a Commonwealth nation such as yourself, I would make a slightly different observation. I believe that many leftists do have an entitlement mentality, and I would use the term leftist in a Commonwealth context, where there is a difference between a liberal and a socialist.

In America, what they usually mean is that liberals believe in social programs, and thus believe people are entitled to the work of others. So even though Jillian and other liberals may not have an entitlement mentality themselves, conservatives argue that they believe in a system which fosters an entitlement mentality amongst the general population.

Yeah, well just to add to the confusion, in Australia the Labor party is our version of the Dems, and the Liberal party is our version of the GoP.

I disagree. I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff not a hammock. There is nothing wrong with a safety net. Countries that don't have them include the likes of India, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Mexico...so that is the end game if you don't have some social programmes in place.

There needs to be a fine line. I find US conservatives basically believe people should live off the bones of their arse if they don't have a job. That would never work. You have to give people hope. I know people who have been unemployed and gotten the dole (unemployment) and they hated every minute of it. They were both Labor and Liberal voters.

Foxfyre is also assuming that anybody who benefits from a social programme is a liberal, to which I say, 'prove it'.

Is there generational unemployment and sense of entitlement amongst some families? Sure. Are they liberals? Who the fuck knows. I don't, and neither does FF...

just to interject for a moment. i think it's really important to point out that foxy's supposition is a fabrication. if it weren't, red states would be paying more into the federal system than they take and blue states would be taking more than they put in. instead, the truth is the opposite.

it's like willow railing against entitlements while she collects social security.

Oh look! Jillian, Queen Mother of the Useful Idiots, unashamed liar and my -favorite- fraud, wants to "interject" what passes for quick and witty in her circle.

I'm sure Big Bird and the Suffleupagus are impressed - now, go back to cleaning the couthouse restrooms, stop hijacking taxpayer-funded wi-fi and come back only when asked.

 

[Toro]

Yeah, well just to add to the confusion, in Australia the Labor party is our version of the Dems, and the Liberal party is our version of the GoP.

I disagree. I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff not a hammock. There is nothing wrong with a safety net. Countries that don't have them include the likes of India, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Mexico...so that is the end game if you don't have some social programmes in place.

There needs to be a fine line. I find US conservatives basically believe people should live off the bones of their arse if they don't have a job. That would never work. You have to give people hope. I know people who have been unemployed and gotten the dole (unemployment) and they hated every minute of it. They were both Labor and Liberal voters.

Foxfyre is also assuming that anybody who benefits from a social programme is a liberal, to which I say, 'prove it'.

Is there generational unemployment and sense of entitlement amongst some families? Sure. Are they liberals? Who the fuck knows. I don't, and neither does FF...

I'm not arguing whether or not there should be a safety net. I'm trying to describe why an American conservative would say an American liberal has an entitlement mentality. To an American conservative (or most of them anyways), arguing for a safety net is to argue for entitlements. Thus, to American conservatives, liberals have an entitlement mentality because they argue for entitlements.

In Commonwealth countries, socialists often argue that people have a right to entitlements, no different than a right to life or whatever. Some American liberals argue that but its not as ubiquitous in American political discourse as it is elsewhere.

 

[jillian]

Yeah, well just to add to the confusion, in Australia the Labor party is our version of the Dems, and the Liberal party is our version of the GoP.

I disagree. I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff not a hammock. There is nothing wrong with a safety net. Countries that don't have them include the likes of India, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Mexico...so that is the end game if you don't have some social programmes in place.

There needs to be a fine line. I find US conservatives basically believe people should live off the bones of their arse if they don't have a job. That would never work. You have to give people hope. I know people who have been unemployed and gotten the dole (unemployment) and they hated every minute of it. They were both Labor and Liberal voters.

Foxfyre is also assuming that anybody who benefits from a social programme is a liberal, to which I say, 'prove it'.

Is there generational unemployment and sense of entitlement amongst some families? Sure. Are they liberals? Who the fuck knows. I don't, and neither does FF...

just to interject for a moment. i think it's really important to point out that foxy's supposition is a fabrication. if it weren't, red states would be paying more into the federal system than they take and blue states would be taking more than they put in. instead, the truth is the opposite.

it's like willow railing against entitlements while she collects social security.

Oh look! Jillian, Queen Mother of the Useful Idiots, unashamed liar and my -favorite- fraud, wants to "interject" what passes for quick and witty in her circle.

I'm sure Big Bird and the Suffleupagus are impressed - now, go back to cleaning the couthouse restrooms, stop hijacking taxpayer-funded wi-fi and come back only when asked.

poor wackjob...

seems someone's cranky.

have another shot of rotgut...

and thank you for more of your useless input.

 

[Dr Grump]

Yeah, well just to add to the confusion, in Australia the Labor party is our version of the Dems, and the Liberal party is our version of the GoP.

I disagree. I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff not a hammock. There is nothing wrong with a safety net. Countries that don't have them include the likes of India, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Mexico...so that is the end game if you don't have some social programmes in place.

There needs to be a fine line. I find US conservatives basically believe people should live off the bones of their arse if they don't have a job. That would never work. You have to give people hope. I know people who have been unemployed and gotten the dole (unemployment) and they hated every minute of it. They were both Labor and Liberal voters.

Foxfyre is also assuming that anybody who benefits from a social programme is a liberal, to which I say, 'prove it'.

Is there generational unemployment and sense of entitlement amongst some families? Sure. Are they liberals? Who the fuck knows. I don't, and neither does FF...

just to interject for a moment. i think it's really important to point out that foxy's supposition is a fabrication. if it weren't, red states would be paying more into the federal system than they take and blue states would be taking more than they put in. instead, the truth is the opposite.

it's like willow railing against entitlements while she collects social security.

Oh look! Jillian, Queen Mother of the Useful Idiots, unashamed liar and my -favorite- fraud, wants to "interject" what passes for quick and witty in her circle.

I'm sure Big Bird and the Suffleupagus are impressed - now, go back to cleaning the couthouse restrooms, stop hijacking taxpayer-funded wi-fi and come back only when asked.

Warning Will Robinson...M14 - 'tard alert! 'tard alert!