CDZ What was the world like when guns did not exist?

[Skull Pilot]

AND, ONCE AGAIN

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to accomplish the same numbers as posted above.

True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

Suicide is a choice but we all know you don't want to let other people make their own choices

 

[2aguy]

Poll Taxes on voting are not allowed, Poll Taxes on owning and carrying a gun are also not allowed.

Explain the purpose of registration of guns.......

Like voter registration, it would insure only those entitled to exercise their right are so enabled.

No....we can already do that.... if you are carrying a gun and are stopped by police, when they run your drivers license they will know if you have a criminal record or any warrants......if you do, and you have a gun, you are arrested.... We don't need any new paperwork do to that, we can do that right now.

Registration for gun ownership is the precursor to gun banning and confiscation....we know this from Britain, Germany, Canada, Australia, New York, California....so registration for the exercise of a Right is a non starter just on that basis.... then throw in the fact we don't need it and it doesn't even help solve crimes, and it is even more unnecessary.

If the system were more robust you might have a point:

The NCIC holds 11.7 million records and averages 7.9 million transactions daily, as of 2011. Unfortunately, the NCIC is also surprisingly incomplete, containing only 50 to 55 percent of all available criminal records in the U.S.

The primary reason the NCIC is missing so many records is that it is the responsibility of multiple primary sources—like the thousands of municipal, county and federal courts throughout the country—to enter, modify, and remove their own information.

As a result, the records are only as thorough as the individuals responsible for maintaining them. Add to that the many differences that exist among various jurisdictions as to how crimes are classified (e.g., felony vs. misdemeanor), and it becomes more obvious why the data in the NCIC isn’t entirely reliable.​

Sorry.....gun registration is meant for gun confiscation..... and you don't even address the constitutional issue of criminals not having to register their illegal guns, but law abiding people can be arrested if they don't register their legal guns...

Do you understand that gun registration doesn't do anything to stop criminals or mass shooters? Do you understand that? Do you know that Canada tried to register just long guns and had to quit, because it became too costly, wasted man power and did not help solve any crimes?

 

[2aguy]

Saying you don't believe people should own firearms...

It matters not

I don't recall ever saying that so please don't make stuff up. You may equate registration with confiscation but I don't.

You don't equate registration with confiscation because you choose not to believe actual events...... gun registration leads to gun confiscation....it has happened all over the world and in various cities and states here...so you may choose not to believe it, but that doesn't make it un true...it makes you foolish.

I'm not the only fool then:

"Gun control" isn't synonymous with gun confiscation, in some genocide cases gun restriction laws had already been in place for many years prior, and evidence does not demonstrate a causal link between gun control and mass exterminations.​

You post that and it just goes completely past you.....

gun restriction laws had already been in place for many years prior,

Why do you think we don't want registration? The Germans registered their guns in the late 1920s.....and it wasn't until the late 1930s that the nazis used those registration lists to confiscate guns.....and in Britain, registration happened long before confiscation...but confiscation happened......

The fact........mass murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing only happen to unarmed populations.......your link states this.....and you can't even see it.....

 

[2aguy]

Concealed carry does not increase the likelihood of crime

Probably true but it does increase the likelihood of an accident.

No...it doesn't....as actual history and experience shows...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

The Truth...from the CDC, WISQARS data site...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748


Here is the record as more Americans now own and carry guns....over 17 million people now have permits to carry guns and the record shows your belief about gun accidents isn't true...From the CDC...

ttps://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html


2016 495
2015...489

2014.....486

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824
non Fatal gun accidents....
WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports
Non fatal gun injury stats from 1999......

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997
CDC non fatal gun accident.....

1993... 104,390
1994... 89,744
1995... 84,322
1996... 69,649
1997... 64,207
2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

Whatever the trend, the absolute number is still not trivial:

Your photo shows one year.....my link from the CDC shows casualties and deaths going down as more Americans own and carry guns.....you have nothing...

 

[2aguy]

. You may equate registration with confiscation but I don't.

I don't either, but that doesn't mean they aren't collecting the info and then it never being used for that reason. What's the point of registering, since no crook is going to do so, only law-abiding citizens, so it's a pointless exercise in pandering to dumbass airheads, a bad precedent all by itself regardless of the issue in question.

On the other hand I also think that it's perfectly fine in current times for states to require passing a safety course in order to buy one; not many people grow up in rural areas any more and thus been around them much and used them often enough to handle them appropriately. And I'm fine with gun owners having to retest every so often as well.

And, as an agnostic, I agree we don't have 'God given rights', nor do I believe in the 'Natural Rightess' rubbish, but given the record of firearms ownership in the U.S., and the hundreds of millions of them legally in private hands, there is little reason to be concerned about them at all that requires yet more pointless legislation just to appease some idiot drug addled hippies and Snowflake neurotics from Manhattan or some other safe space bubble in the Burbs.

Police response times where I live is around 25 minutes, at its best, so we all own firearms out here, and my wife has always owned them, she's a better shot than me as well, so I get assigned the shotgun and she gets the good gear. It matters not one iota out here whether their guns are 'legal' or not, they're going to have them regardless, so unless one wants to devote massive amounts of govt. time and money to harass perfectly fine citizens rather than use the time and money to much better effect sweeping the ghetto rats out of the Hoods every month or so, and keeping them out, just forget stupid crap like more regulations that aren't going to increase anybody's security one iota.

Nice post, I agree with most of it. If there are effective alternatives to gun registration that make registration unnecessary, I'm fine with them. Just don't give me the slippery slope argument with no alternatives.

What I don't agree with is the one-size fits all mentality. If Manhattan voters want stricter gun laws than you and your neighbors do I say let each choose for themselves.

There is no need to register guns for the first point, and yes, gun registration allows the government when they have the power to confiscate guns..... it isn't a story, it isn't a myth, Britain, Germany, Australia, Canada, they did it and not that long ago........You can deny it all you want but you are selling a lie, not the truth.

If Manhattan voters want stricter gun laws than you and your neighbors do I say let each choose for themselves.

Yes....then you must also agree that if southern democrat towns and cities wanted to keep blacks from voting using the law that would be okay too...right? Let them choose for themselves......right?

Owning a gun is the Same Right as voting.....it cannot be stopped because some people don't like people exercising it...

 

[2aguy]

AND, ONCE AGAIN

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to accomplish the same numbers as posted above.

True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

And that is wrong......sorry, actual research shows that isn't even remotely true.....

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide



There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.

Suicide is a mental health issue. If guns are not available other means are used. Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%).

Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article. The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited. Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows: Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).

Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)

Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics. According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent. Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.

 

[Picaro]

What I don't agree with is the one-size fits all mentality. If Manhattan voters want stricter gun laws than you and your neighbors do I say let each choose for themselves.

I believe states have the right to set their own gun laws, and decide who qualifies to be in their 'militias', and the 2nd doesn't trump the state laws, and that includes laws re guns, but then the Constitution hasn't been the genuine law of the land in a long long time, and is irrelevant now; it's only dragged out and used in propaganda, not real practice, so its influence varies from non-existent to wildly popular, depending on the issues.

Judges, political appointees, unilaterally decide Federal law and the 'legality' of state law by pure fiat, political Party affiliation, and ideological preference these days. Whoever appoints the judges decides the laws, and they change according to petty whims and favors owed now. Both right wingers and left wingers should just stop pretending otherwise, because it just makes them look stupid when they keep trying to claim otherwise; neither wing gives a flying crap about the Constitution in real life, and neither do any of the hacks and cronies they appoint to judicial benches.

 

[alang1216]

looks to me like accidental gun deaths are pretty low

so you're worrying about the wrong thing

How many gun deaths are worth worrying about?

 

[alang1216]

I don't care if the right is god given or not but it is my right to own a firearm to protect myself

Your right comes from the government (the Constitution) which comes from the citizens of this country, it is not a right you're born with.

 

[alang1216]

Suicide is a choice but we all know you don't want to let other people make their own choices

Suicide is more complex than in your simple world view. Cancer is not a choice like mental illness is not a choice.

 

[alang1216]

AND, ONCE AGAIN

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to accomplish the same numbers as posted above.

True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

And that is wrong......sorry, actual research shows that isn't even remotely true.....

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide



There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.

Suicide is a mental health issue. If guns are not available other means are used. Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%).

Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article. The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited. Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows: Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).

Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)

Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics. According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent. Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.

Re: True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

Although guns are not the most popular way that people try to take their life (this dubious distinction belongs to pills), they are the most deadly. Statistics show that 85 percent of attempts with a gun are fatal, compared with 69 percent for hanging and 2 percent for self-poisoning.

I think comparing the US to other cultures is problematic but I believe we can do more to keep guns away from the mentally ill. That will lower the rate of successful suicides and, maybe, the incidence of mass shootings.

 

[ChrisL]

Before guns, the world was even MORE violent than it is now. It is people who have a problem with violence. We are just animals who are territorial and self centered towards survival, like any other animals.

 

[Picaro]

Before guns, the world was even MORE violent than it is now. It is people who have a problem with violence. .

Absolutely correct, and Europe was even more violent before the Christians came along and reduced it by a huge margin as well. WE won't see the equivalent of a WW I or WW II in our lifetime as well, directly because of the even bigger and longer range 'guns' available today; all we'll see is the little brushfire, localized stuff we have today, and even those would be far less numerous if the UN and the various other treaty organizations actually did their jobs once in a while. Guns in the U.S. are very small potatoes statistically, and it's very clear who commits the most gun crimes here,; some just won't admit it and do the right thing, so more die every day, just to appease and get votes from dope addled and clueless Snowflakes and their enablers.

 

[Picaro]

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to
Re: True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

Although guns are not the most popular way that people try to take their life (this dubious distinction belongs to pills), they are the most deadly. Statistics show that 85 percent of attempts with a gun are fatal, compared with 69 percent for hanging and 2 percent for self-poisoning.

BE that as it may, I don't see that as a near enough of a reason for denying the right to many millions of people, just because the mentally ill can't be responsible; they're still making a personal choice, and that is no fault of those who own hundreds of millions of firearms legally and with zero issues.

I think comparing the US to other cultures is problematic but I believe we can do more to keep guns away from the mentally ill. That will lower the rate of successful suicides and, maybe, the incidence of mass shootings.

It's possible, but you yourself have pointed out how incompetent the govt. is in even collecting accurate statistics. I don't disagree with the sentiment in the least.

 

[ChrisL]

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to
Re: True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

Although guns are not the most popular way that people try to take their life (this dubious distinction belongs to pills), they are the most deadly. Statistics show that 85 percent of attempts with a gun are fatal, compared with 69 percent for hanging and 2 percent for self-poisoning.

BE that as it may, I don't see that as a near enough of a reason for denying the right to many millions of people, just because the mentally ill can't be responsible; they're still making a personal choice, and that is no fault of those who own hundreds of millions of firearms legally and with zero issues.

I think comparing the US to other cultures is problematic but I believe we can do more to keep guns away from the mentally ill. That will lower the rate of successful suicides and, maybe, the incidence of mass shootings.

It's possible, but you yourself have pointed out how incompetent the govt. is in even collecting accurate statistics. I don't disagree with the sentiment in the least.

With the track record of government, the less they have to be responsible for, the better off we are.

 

[alang1216]

BE that as it may, I don't see that as a near enough of a reason for denying the right to many millions of people, just because the mentally ill can't be responsible; they're still making a personal choice, and that is no fault of those who own hundreds of millions of firearms legally and with zero issues.

I'm not sure what rights you think are being denied but you're wrong about the mentally ill making a personal choice. Would you say Muscular Dystrophy sufferers are making a personal choice not to walk?

 

[Picaro]

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to
Re: True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

Although guns are not the most popular way that people try to take their life (this dubious distinction belongs to pills), they are the most deadly. Statistics show that 85 percent of attempts with a gun are fatal, compared with 69 percent for hanging and 2 percent for self-poisoning.

BE that as it may, I don't see that as a near enough of a reason for denying the right to many millions of people, just because the mentally ill can't be responsible; they're still making a personal choice, and that is no fault of those who own hundreds of millions of firearms legally and with zero issues.

I think comparing the US to other cultures is problematic but I believe we can do more to keep guns away from the mentally ill. That will lower the rate of successful suicides and, maybe, the incidence of mass shootings.

It's possible, but you yourself have pointed out how incompetent the govt. is in even collecting accurate statistics. I don't disagree with the sentiment in the least.

With the track record of government, the less they have to be responsible for, the better off we are.

Government is exactly as good and competent as the people they govern want it to be, nothing less, nothing more. It does many things well, and does a lot of other things badly; the latter is the fault of of the culture it draws its personnel from and the people who elect its leadership.

 

[Picaro]

BE that as it may, I don't see that as a near enough of a reason for denying the right to many millions of people, just because the mentally ill can't be responsible; they're still making a personal choice, and that is no fault of those who own hundreds of millions of firearms legally and with zero issues.

I'm not sure what rights you think are being denied but you're wrong about the mentally ill making a personal choice. Would you say Muscular Dystrophy sufferers are making a personal choice not to walk?

Muscular Dystrophy sufferers seek help, while the mentally ill don't. You have Ted Kennedy and others to blame for the mentally ill being left to make their own choices without professional help and letting them run around loose.

And, suicides are statistically irrelevant compared to the numbers of guns in private hands, and doesn't have any relevance to the discussion of gun control.

 

[alang1216]

you yourself have pointed out how incompetent the govt. is in even collecting accurate statistics.

I don't think gov't is incompetent, I believe it accurately reflects divided nature of the country. The federal gov't is barred by law from collecting some statistics.

 

[Skull Pilot]

looks to me like accidental gun deaths are pretty low

so you're worrying about the wrong thing

How many gun deaths are worth worrying about?

The murders
Accidents are negligible compared to other types of accidents and suicide is a choice not a crime

The fact that you are harping on accidental deaths and not even mentioning where 70% of all murders occur tells me you don't really care about the murder rate or actual gun crimes as much as you do your agenda to restrict gun ownership