CDZ What was the world like when guns did not exist?

[2aguy]

Saying you don't believe people should own firearms...

It matters not

I don't recall ever saying that so please don't make stuff up. You may equate registration with confiscation but I don't.

Do you understand that criminals do not have to register their illegal guns? Does that make a difference to you? The only people who have to register their guns are law abiding gun owners......

Haynes v. Untied States was the ruling...

 

[alang1216]

Poll Taxes on voting are not allowed, Poll Taxes on owning and carrying a gun are also not allowed.

Explain the purpose of registration of guns.......

Like voter registration, it would insure only those entitled to exercise their right are so enabled.

No....we can already do that.... if you are carrying a gun and are stopped by police, when they run your drivers license they will know if you have a criminal record or any warrants......if you do, and you have a gun, you are arrested.... We don't need any new paperwork do to that, we can do that right now.

Registration for gun ownership is the precursor to gun banning and confiscation....we know this from Britain, Germany, Canada, Australia, New York, California....so registration for the exercise of a Right is a non starter just on that basis.... then throw in the fact we don't need it and it doesn't even help solve crimes, and it is even more unnecessary.

If the system were more robust you might have a point:

The NCIC holds 11.7 million records and averages 7.9 million transactions daily, as of 2011. Unfortunately, the NCIC is also surprisingly incomplete, containing only 50 to 55 percent of all available criminal records in the U.S.

The primary reason the NCIC is missing so many records is that it is the responsibility of multiple primary sources—like the thousands of municipal, county and federal courts throughout the country—to enter, modify, and remove their own information.

As a result, the records are only as thorough as the individuals responsible for maintaining them. Add to that the many differences that exist among various jurisdictions as to how crimes are classified (e.g., felony vs. misdemeanor), and it becomes more obvious why the data in the NCIC isn’t entirely reliable.​

 

[Picaro]

Poll Taxes on voting are not allowed, Poll Taxes on owning and carrying a gun are also not allowed.

Explain the purpose of registration of guns.......

Like voter registration, it would insure only those entitled to exercise their right are so enabled.

No....we can already do that.... if you are carrying a gun and are stopped by police, when they run your drivers license they will know if you have a criminal record or any warrants......if you do, and you have a gun, you are arrested.... We don't need any new paperwork do to that, we can do that right now.

Registration for gun ownership is the precursor to gun banning and confiscation....we know this from Britain, Germany, Canada, Australia, New York, California....so registration for the exercise of a Right is a non starter just on that basis.... then throw in the fact we don't need it and it doesn't even help solve crimes, and it is even more unnecessary.

If the system were more robust you might have a point:

The NCIC holds 11.7 million records and averages 7.9 million transactions daily, as of 2011. Unfortunately, the NCIC is also surprisingly incomplete, containing only 50 to 55 percent of all available criminal records in the U.S.

The primary reason the NCIC is missing so many records is that it is the responsibility of multiple primary sources—like the thousands of municipal, county and federal courts throughout the country—to enter, modify, and remove their own information.

As a result, the records are only as thorough as the individuals responsible for maintaining them. Add to that the many differences that exist among various jurisdictions as to how crimes are classified (e.g., felony vs. misdemeanor), and it becomes more obvious why the data in the NCIC isn’t entirely reliable.​

Think they would suddenly be much more efficient with gun registration, for some reason?

 

[Pop23]

So, what keeps you up at night is the odds that a accidental shot from neighboring property might hit you?

Let me put your head to rest.

The odds of that happening, on any given day is 1.55 in 327,000,000.

Thanks, I'm fine. Skull Pilot beat you to it.

Then what exactly are you so worried about.

If something with so minuscule odds, what 5 x's or less likely to happen then being killed in a texting while driving accident, then the only thing we can take away from this is that you CHOOSE to live you're life in constant fear. If that is the case, there is no one on this board that can help you. I am serious when I say this, you really need to seek help for this agonizing fear of yours.

 

[miketx]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

back before guns existed, the world was all peace and harmony. No famine, no war, no crime. Then some evil racist white bastard invented guns and the next day the the local gendarmes started shooting unarmed black peasants for cobbling while black.

 

[Pop23]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

back before guns existed, the world was all peace and harmony. No famine, no war, no crime. Then some evil racist white bastard invented guns and the next day the the local gendarmes started shooting unarmed black peasants for cobbling while black.

AND BEER. THERE WAS FREE BEER!

I didn't say it was good beer, just that it was free!

 

[alang1216]

Concealed carry does not increase the likelihood of crime

Probably true but it does increase the likelihood of an accident.

No...it doesn't....as actual history and experience shows...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

The Truth...from the CDC, WISQARS data site...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748


Here is the record as more Americans now own and carry guns....over 17 million people now have permits to carry guns and the record shows your belief about gun accidents isn't true...From the CDC...

ttps://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html


2016 495
2015...489

2014.....486

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824
non Fatal gun accidents....
WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports
Non fatal gun injury stats from 1999......

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997
CDC non fatal gun accident.....

1993... 104,390
1994... 89,744
1995... 84,322
1996... 69,649
1997... 64,207
2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

Whatever the trend, the absolute number is still not trivial:

 

[Picaro]

Concealed carry does not increase the likelihood of crime

Probably true but it does increase the likelihood of an accident.

No...it doesn't....as actual history and experience shows...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

The Truth...from the CDC, WISQARS data site...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748


Here is the record as more Americans now own and carry guns....over 17 million people now have permits to carry guns and the record shows your belief about gun accidents isn't true...From the CDC...

ttps://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html


2016 495
2015...489

2014.....486

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824
non Fatal gun accidents....
WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports
Non fatal gun injury stats from 1999......

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997
CDC non fatal gun accident.....

1993... 104,390
1994... 89,744
1995... 84,322
1996... 69,649
1997... 64,207
2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

Whatever the trend, the absolute number is still not trivial:

Yes, like I said sweep the ghettos and you fix almost all the gun crimes to next to nothing. Tough to 'criminalize' suicides, what are you going to do, lock them up for attempted murder of themselves?

 

[miketx]

Concealed carry does not increase the likelihood of crime

Probably true but it does increase the likelihood of an accident.

No...it doesn't....as actual history and experience shows...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

The Truth...from the CDC, WISQARS data site...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748


Here is the record as more Americans now own and carry guns....over 17 million people now have permits to carry guns and the record shows your belief about gun accidents isn't true...From the CDC...

ttps://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html


2016 495
2015...489

2014.....486

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824
non Fatal gun accidents....
WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports
Non fatal gun injury stats from 1999......

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997
CDC non fatal gun accident.....

1993... 104,390
1994... 89,744
1995... 84,322
1996... 69,649
1997... 64,207
2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

Whatever the trend, the absolute number is still not trivial:

total lie.

 

[alang1216]

Saying you don't believe people should own firearms...

It matters not

I don't recall ever saying that so please don't make stuff up. You may equate registration with confiscation but I don't.

You don't equate registration with confiscation because you choose not to believe actual events...... gun registration leads to gun confiscation....it has happened all over the world and in various cities and states here...so you may choose not to believe it, but that doesn't make it un true...it makes you foolish.

I'm not the only fool then:

"Gun control" isn't synonymous with gun confiscation, in some genocide cases gun restriction laws had already been in place for many years prior, and evidence does not demonstrate a causal link between gun control and mass exterminations.​

 

[Pop23]

Concealed carry does not increase the likelihood of crime

Probably true but it does increase the likelihood of an accident.

No...it doesn't....as actual history and experience shows...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

The Truth...from the CDC, WISQARS data site...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748


Here is the record as more Americans now own and carry guns....over 17 million people now have permits to carry guns and the record shows your belief about gun accidents isn't true...From the CDC...

ttps://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html


2016 495
2015...489

2014.....486

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824
non Fatal gun accidents....
WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports
Non fatal gun injury stats from 1999......

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997
CDC non fatal gun accident.....

1993... 104,390
1994... 89,744
1995... 84,322
1996... 69,649
1997... 64,207
2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

Whatever the trend, the absolute number is still not trivial:

AND, ONCE AGAIN

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to accomplish the same numbers as posted above.

Police: 12-year-old boy jumps from overpass in suicide attempt, kills driver below

Here's one caused by a bridge I guess.

 

[alang1216]

. You may equate registration with confiscation but I don't.

I don't either, but that doesn't mean they aren't collecting the info and then it never being used for that reason. What's the point of registering, since no crook is going to do so, only law-abiding citizens, so it's a pointless exercise in pandering to dumbass airheads, a bad precedent all by itself regardless of the issue in question.

On the other hand I also think that it's perfectly fine in current times for states to require passing a safety course in order to buy one; not many people grow up in rural areas any more and thus been around them much and used them often enough to handle them appropriately. And I'm fine with gun owners having to retest every so often as well.

And, as an agnostic, I agree we don't have 'God given rights', nor do I believe in the 'Natural Rightess' rubbish, but given the record of firearms ownership in the U.S., and the hundreds of millions of them legally in private hands, there is little reason to be concerned about them at all that requires yet more pointless legislation just to appease some idiot drug addled hippies and Snowflake neurotics from Manhattan or some other safe space bubble in the Burbs.

Police response times where I live is around 25 minutes, at its best, so we all own firearms out here, and my wife has always owned them, she's a better shot than me as well, so I get assigned the shotgun and she gets the good gear. It matters not one iota out here whether their guns are 'legal' or not, they're going to have them regardless, so unless one wants to devote massive amounts of govt. time and money to harass perfectly fine citizens rather than use the time and money to much better effect sweeping the ghetto rats out of the Hoods every month or so, and keeping them out, just forget stupid crap like more regulations that aren't going to increase anybody's security one iota.

Nice post, I agree with most of it. If there are effective alternatives to gun registration that make registration unnecessary, I'm fine with them. Just don't give me the slippery slope argument with no alternatives.

What I don't agree with is the one-size fits all mentality. If Manhattan voters want stricter gun laws than you and your neighbors do I say let each choose for themselves.

 

[alang1216]

AND, ONCE AGAIN

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to accomplish the same numbers as posted above.

True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

 

[alang1216]

total lie.

Not the most convincing argument I've seen. You might consider stepping up your game if you want to eat at the adult table.

 

[miketx]

AND, ONCE AGAIN

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to accomplish the same numbers as posted above.

True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

Maybe we should make suicide illegal.

 

[miketx]

total lie.

Not the most convincing argument I've seen. You might consider stepping up your game if you want to eat at the adult table.

Why? You prove daily that you won't accept any facts from reliable proven sources. When posted, you still lie.

 

[alang1216]

Think they would suddenly be much more efficient with gun registration, for some reason?

Lack of political will?

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't recall ever saying that so please don't make stuff up. You may equate registration with confiscation but I don't.

I don't believe you have a God-given right to drive a car or own a gun.

Do you think I believe people shouldn't own cars? You may believe God wrote the 2nd amendment but I don't.

I don't care if the right is god given or not but it is my right to own a firearm to protect myself

 

[Skull Pilot]

More than zero. How much risk is too much?

So you want a zero risk world?

'More than zero' is NOT zero. If you have such a good case to make why do you have have to be dishonest?

if more than zero is not acceptable to you then yes you want a zero risk world

I asked you how much the risk increases with concealed carry

You said "More than zero"

Which implies that more than zero is unacceptable to you

Do you think there is a zero chance of an accident if you carry a gun? If you admit the chance of an accident is more than zero are you implying that more than zero is unacceptable to you?

I never said there was zero chance of anything

But there is probability and possibility. But I have 30 plus years of handling firearms and 20 plus years with a CCW permit and I have never had an accidental discharge of any weapon. So the probability of me accidentally shooting someone lower than your chance of getting run over by a bus

and more than zero is acceptable to everyone because a zero percent accident rate is not possible

 

[Skull Pilot]

Concealed carry does not increase the likelihood of crime

Probably true but it does increase the likelihood of an accident.

No...it doesn't....as actual history and experience shows...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

The Truth...from the CDC, WISQARS data site...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748


Here is the record as more Americans now own and carry guns....over 17 million people now have permits to carry guns and the record shows your belief about gun accidents isn't true...From the CDC...

ttps://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html


2016 495
2015...489

2014.....486

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824
non Fatal gun accidents....
WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports
Non fatal gun injury stats from 1999......

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997
CDC non fatal gun accident.....

1993... 104,390
1994... 89,744
1995... 84,322
1996... 69,649
1997... 64,207
2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

Whatever the trend, the absolute number is still not trivial:

looks to me like accidental gun deaths are pretty low

so you're worrying about the wrong thing