CDZ What was the world like when guns did not exist?

[Skull Pilot]

Suicide is a choice but we all know you don't want to let other people make their own choices

Suicide is more complex than in your simple world view. Cancer is not a choice like mental illness is not a choice.

One need not be mentally ill in order to commit suicide.

You assume that a person cannot make a rational choice to end his own life.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't care if the right is god given or not but it is my right to own a firearm to protect myself

Your right comes from the government (the Constitution) which comes from the citizens of this country, it is not a right you're born with.

So I have no right to defend my own life?

Tell me if the fucking government told you that you had to submit to death at the hands of another because it has been deemed that you have no right to defend yourself what would you do?

And FYI in the constitution the rights enumerated are all said to belong to the person regardless of the governemnt

 

[ChrisL]

BE that as it may, I don't see that as a near enough of a reason for denying the right to many millions of people, just because the mentally ill can't be responsible; they're still making a personal choice, and that is no fault of those who own hundreds of millions of firearms legally and with zero issues.

I'm not sure what rights you think are being denied but you're wrong about the mentally ill making a personal choice. Would you say Muscular Dystrophy sufferers are making a personal choice not to walk?

Not everyone who takes their own life is mentally ill, neither is everyone who kills. And there are some "mentally ill" people (who are technically considered mentally ill) who are perfectly functional people. If you have sought treatment for depression, then you could be considered "mentally ill" as well. The problems come where you allow government bureaucrats to decide WHO is mentally ill and deserving or undeserving of rights.

 

[ChrisL]

There are a lot of people who are dysfunctional in one way or another. So? The government should decide who is and who is not capable based upon something they MAY or MAY NOT do in the future? This is going to be a basis for denying basic constitutional RIGHTS to the citizens? WE are not fucking Europe. If you want Europe, then go to Europe.

 

[ChrisL]

Guns are not a prerequisite to Murder or Suicide. Any number of tools can be used to
Re: True enough but gun availability has been shown to increase the success of suicides.

Although guns are not the most popular way that people try to take their life (this dubious distinction belongs to pills), they are the most deadly. Statistics show that 85 percent of attempts with a gun are fatal, compared with 69 percent for hanging and 2 percent for self-poisoning.

BE that as it may, I don't see that as a near enough of a reason for denying the right to many millions of people, just because the mentally ill can't be responsible; they're still making a personal choice, and that is no fault of those who own hundreds of millions of firearms legally and with zero issues.

I think comparing the US to other cultures is problematic but I believe we can do more to keep guns away from the mentally ill. That will lower the rate of successful suicides and, maybe, the incidence of mass shootings.

It's possible, but you yourself have pointed out how incompetent the govt. is in even collecting accurate statistics. I don't disagree with the sentiment in the least.

With the track record of government, the less they have to be responsible for, the better off we are.

Government is exactly as good and competent as the people they govern want it to be, nothing less, nothing more. It does many things well, and does a lot of other things badly; the latter is the fault of of the culture it draws its personnel from and the people who elect its leadership.

It's because the government is made up of people who are inherently flawed, greedy, self centered. Power and money tend to corrupt eventually. That is exactly why you want to keep people like the Clintons, the Bushes, etc., away from the White House and not allow these governmental "dynasty" families.

 

[alang1216]

Muscular Dystrophy sufferers seek help, while the mentally ill don't. You have Ted Kennedy and others to blame for the mentally ill being left to make their own choices without professional help and letting them run around loose.

And, suicides are statistically irrelevant compared to the numbers of guns in private hands, and doesn't have any relevance to the discussion of gun control.

Why do you say the mentally ill don't seek help since about 1/2 do. How many with high blood pressure or diabetes don't seek help? Denying an illness is just what we all do.

Kennedy worked to make services available to the mentally ill so you are wrong there too.

 

[alang1216]

The fact that you are harping on accidental deaths and not even mentioning where 70% of all murders occur tells me you don't really care about the murder rate or actual gun crimes as much as you do your agenda to restrict gun ownership

I'm more than happy to find a way to lower the murder rate. I'm open to any ideas that can be backed up by evidence. What you got?

 

[ChrisL]

I don't care if the right is god given or not but it is my right to own a firearm to protect myself

Your right comes from the government (the Constitution) which comes from the citizens of this country, it is not a right you're born with.

So I have no right to defend my own life?

Tell me if the fucking government told you that you had to submit to death at the hands of another because it has been deemed that you have no right to defend yourself what would you do?

And FYI in the constitution the rights enumerated are all said to belong to the person regardless of the governemnt

Exactly. The Bill of Rights is supposed to be about things the government does NOT control. Not things the government "allows" us to do. Just write out that statement, the government "allows", and it is easy to see that it goes against the entire CONCEPT of the Bill of Rights.

 

[alang1216]

One need not be mentally ill in order to commit suicide.

You assume that a person cannot make a rational choice to end his own life.

True fact but there are legal ways to go about it and my gut tells me these people don't choose such a messy option as a gun. It seems that 10% of suicides are linked to terminal illnesses. If someone rationally chooses to end their life, that is their right.

 

[EGR one]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

Human nature has not changed so the world was no less violent before guns. What is different is the industrial scale of the killing. I seem to recall reading about a Medieval battle between armored knights. The battle raged for hours but the only fatality was a knight who was thrown from his horse. Extreme example but contrast that to WWI where the machine gun and artillery killed by the millions. It seems obvious to me you can kill more people in a given time with an AR-15 than you can with a machete.

Why be so fixated on numbers? How does a thousand deaths become more horrible than a hundred deaths? Why is 10 dead worse than 5 dead? Could it be that since the news media focus is on numbers, that we have to focus on numbers?

 

[ChrisL]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

Human nature has not changed so the world was no less violent before guns. What is different is the industrial scale of the killing. I seem to recall reading about a Medieval battle between armored knights. The battle raged for hours but the only fatality was a knight who was thrown from his horse. Extreme example but contrast that to WWI where the machine gun and artillery killed by the millions. It seems obvious to me you can kill more people in a given time with an AR-15 than you can with a machete.

Why be so fixated on numbers? How does a thousand deaths become more horrible than a hundred deaths? Why is 10 dead worse than 5 dead? Could it be that since the news media focus is on numbers, that we have to focus on numbers?

If they were really focused and concerned about the "numbers", then they would start paying more attention to inner city gang violence instead of the much more rare school shooting. The fact that they ignore bigger problems while accentuating smaller ones is a dead give away that their whole argument is not based on saving lives but a bigger agenda.

 

[EGR one]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

I bet you will find thought that when MONEY did not exist,there was world peace. there would never be the wars there is if money did not exist.

Money has always existed in some form. Money is nothing more than an accepted means of trade.

 

[Skull Pilot]

One need not be mentally ill in order to commit suicide.

You assume that a person cannot make a rational choice to end his own life.

True fact but there are legal ways to go about it and my gut tells me these people don't choose such a messy option as a gun. It seems that 10% of suicides are linked to terminal illnesses. If someone rationally chooses to end their life, that is their right.

Suicide is not illegal
And if you truly believe that suicide is a choice one has the right to make why do you care if a person chooses to use a gun?

 

[Skull Pilot]

The fact that you are harping on accidental deaths and not even mentioning where 70% of all murders occur tells me you don't really care about the murder rate or actual gun crimes as much as you do your agenda to restrict gun ownership

I'm more than happy to find a way to lower the murder rate. I'm open to any ideas that can be backed up by evidence. What you got?

70% of all murders in this country take place in very small very distinct areas in just 5% of all the counties in the country.
These urban murder islands are historically plagued by high poverty, high crime and high violence and the murders are mostly young minorities killing other young minorities.

Get a handle on these problem areas and lower our murder rate by up to 70%

 

[EGR one]

Poll Taxes on voting are not allowed, Poll Taxes on owning and carrying a gun are also not allowed.

Explain the purpose of registration of guns.......

Like voter registration, it would insure only those entitled to exercise their right are so enabled.

. You may equate registration with confiscation but I don't.

I don't either, but that doesn't mean they aren't collecting the info and then it never being used for that reason. What's the point of registering, since no crook is going to do so, only law-abiding citizens, so it's a pointless exercise in pandering to dumbass airheads, a bad precedent all by itself regardless of the issue in question.

On the other hand I also think that it's perfectly fine in current times for states to require passing a safety course in order to buy one; not many people grow up in rural areas any more and thus been around them much and used them often enough to handle them appropriately. And I'm fine with gun owners having to retest every so often as well.

And, as an agnostic, I agree we don't have 'God given rights', nor do I believe in the 'Natural Rightess' rubbish, but given the record of firearms ownership in the U.S., and the hundreds of millions of them legally in private hands, there is little reason to be concerned about them at all that requires yet more pointless legislation just to appease some idiot drug addled hippies and Snowflake neurotics from Manhattan or some other safe space bubble in the Burbs.

Police response times where I live is around 25 minutes, at its best, so we all own firearms out here, and my wife has always owned them, she's a better shot than me as well, so I get assigned the shotgun and she gets the good gear. It matters not one iota out here whether their guns are 'legal' or not, they're going to have them regardless, so unless one wants to devote massive amounts of govt. time and money to harass perfectly fine citizens rather than use the time and money to much better effect sweeping the ghetto rats out of the Hoods every month or so, and keeping them out, just forget stupid crap like more regulations that aren't going to increase anybody's security one iota.

Nice post, I agree with most of it. If there are effective alternatives to gun registration that make registration unnecessary, I'm fine with them. Just don't give me the slippery slope argument with no alternatives.

What I don't agree with is the one-size fits all mentality. If Manhattan voters want stricter gun laws than you and your neighbors do I say let each choose for themselves.

The majority cannot vote away the constitutional rights of others. Would you like your neighbors to vote on your first or fourth amendment rights?

 

[Pop23]

looks to me like accidental gun deaths are pretty low

so you're worrying about the wrong thing

How many gun deaths are worth worrying about?

For the public in general? Or for the gang bangers that cause most of them. And the suicidal? Only theirs matter, to them.

 

[EGR one]

I don't care if the right is god given or not but it is my right to own a firearm to protect myself

Your right comes from the government (the Constitution) which comes from the citizens of this country, it is not a right you're born with.

It is a constitutional right, and I am born with that right. If the citizens of this country change the constitution and remove that right, then I will have to live with that. That is not going to happen any time soon.

 

[alang1216]

I don't care if the right is god given or not but it is my right to own a firearm to protect myself

Your right comes from the government (the Constitution) which comes from the citizens of this country, it is not a right you're born with.

So I have no right to defend my own life?

You do have that legal right but it is not your legal right because you say it is. Your legal right comes from the government. Your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit may come from God but that only translate to legal rights through gov't.

 

[alang1216]

looks to me like accidental gun deaths are pretty low

so you're worrying about the wrong thing

How many gun deaths are worth worrying about?

For the public in general? Or for the gang bangers that cause most of them. And the suicidal? Only theirs matter, to them.

Gang bangers that kill other gang bangers do us all a favor. Not so much when they kill an innocent. Suicides have families that are impacted too.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't care if the right is god given or not but it is my right to own a firearm to protect myself

Your right comes from the government (the Constitution) which comes from the citizens of this country, it is not a right you're born with.

So I have no right to defend my own life?

You do have that legal right but it is not your legal right because you say it is. Your legal right comes from the government. Your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit may come from God but that only translate to legal rights through gov't.

The document that is the basis for our government specifically states the rights enumerated belong to the people. That rights are inherent in the people is the entire basis of our government