What would you accept as proof for G-d existing?

[Meriweather]

That's just it. I never said my brain led me to the logical conclusion that God didn't exist. I said my brain informed me that there was no evidence that God does exist. You really seem to be having a hard time distinguishing the difference between those two statements.

Actually I don't. My only point is that even upon coming face-to-face with God, no change in attitude. You (would then exist without physical properties) are telling God there is no evidence of His existence. Just struck me as ironic/funny that the first thing you would want to say to God is, "There is no evidence." Ever consider the possibility that if the brain only travels the paths of evidence and logic, it may miss out on the path of reality?

 

[Czernobog]

That's just it. I never said my brain led me to the logical conclusion that God didn't exist. I said my brain informed me that there was no evidence that God does exist. You really seem to be having a hard time distinguishing the difference between those two statements.

Actually I don't. My only point is that even upon coming face-to-face with God, no change in attitude. You (would then exist without physical properties) are telling God there is no evidence of His existence. Just struck me as ironic/funny that the first thing you would want to say to God is, "There is no evidence." Ever consider the possibility that if the brain only travels the paths of evidence and logic, it may miss out on the path of reality?

Now you are putting words in my mouth. Clearly, if I am standing in front of God, face to face, there is irrefutable physical evidence of his existence, now isn't there. However, that wasn't the question. The question of "God's", was "Why didn't you believe while. You. Were. Alive?" The answer was, "Because there was no rational, observable, objective evidence. I had a brain. I lived my life according to reason," You see, you seem to be trying to find a way to suggest that my position is irrational. Except it isn't. My position is based solely on rational logic, and reason.

The same holds true today, as it would in the mythical afterlife. God wants my obedience? No problem. He knows where I live. Come on over. have a beer, and let's take some selfies. Observable, objective evidence of the existence of God, and I'm all his. I've been waiting for that evidence for the last 35 years. Hasn't been presented, yet.

 

[Votto]

I ask this of myself all the time. What event or occurence would stand out from natural phenomenae and be an unmistakle indication of an all-powerful conscious G-d doing something?

If the Earth suddenly stopped rotating for a day or so then started up again, I'd take that as proof of G-d.

An angel materializing before me would suffice as well. Thought I encountered one way back, but think it was just a really beautiful woman I passed in a hallway and our eyes met for a moment. I actually stopped in my tracks awestruck.

You know, things like that.

How about?
1. Splitting the Red Sea
2. Rising from the dead
3. Healing the sick with prayer
4. Creating a universe and life on planet earth

No? Oh well, we tried.

 

[Czernobog]

I ask this of myself all the time. What event or occurence would stand out from natural phenomenae and be an unmistakle indication of an all-powerful conscious G-d doing something?

If the Earth suddenly stopped rotating for a day or so then started up again, I'd take that as proof of G-d.

An angel materializing before me would suffice as well. Thought I encountered one way back, but think it was just a really beautiful woman I passed in a hallway and our eyes met for a moment. I actually stopped in my tracks awestruck.

You know, things like that.

How about?
1. Splitting the Red Sea
2. Rising from the dead
3. Healing the sick with prayer
4. Creating a universe and life on planet earth

No? Oh well, we tried.

So...you witnessed the Red Sea splitting? Someone rising fro the dead? Healing the sick (with verifiable medical records before, and after)? You have verifiable, demonstrable evidence of this "creation" of the universe from a being of intelligence?

No? Then it isn't exactly observable, verifiable, objective evidence now, is it? See, reading about something doesn't mea that something happened. I read Harry Potter, and the Sorcerer's Stone. I don't believe Hogwarts exists either.

 

[Meriweather]

Now you are putting words in my mouth. Clearly, if I am standing in front of God, face to face, there is irrefutable physical evidence of his existence, now isn't there. However, that wasn't the question. The question of "God's", was "Why didn't you believe while. You. Were. Alive?" The answer was, "Because there was no rational, observable, objective evidence. I had a brain. I lived my life according to reason," You see, you seem to be trying to find a way to suggest that my position is irrational. Except it isn't. My position is based solely on rational logic, and reason.

The same holds true today, as it would in the mythical afterlife. God wants my obedience? No problem. He knows where I live. Come on over. have a beer, and let's take some selfies. Observable, objective evidence of the existence of God, and I'm all his. I've been waiting for that evidence for the last 35 years. Hasn't been presented, yet.

There would be no physical evidence because in that situation, neither of you would have physical bodies, but spiritual ones. Since that point wasn't caught, more than past time to move on. No, I don't think your position is irrational, but isn't it also true that your brain is more than just the means to observe and process physical data?

Instead of waiting for God to come to you, have you ever considered searching out God in places where the tools of the five senses are of no use at all?

 

[rightwinger]

If I win the Powerball this week, I will accept that as irrefutable proof of a miracle

 

[Votto]

I ask this of myself all the time. What event or occurence would stand out from natural phenomenae and be an unmistakle indication of an all-powerful conscious G-d doing something?

If the Earth suddenly stopped rotating for a day or so then started up again, I'd take that as proof of G-d.

An angel materializing before me would suffice as well. Thought I encountered one way back, but think it was just a really beautiful woman I passed in a hallway and our eyes met for a moment. I actually stopped in my tracks awestruck.

You know, things like that.

How about?
1. Splitting the Red Sea
2. Rising from the dead
3. Healing the sick with prayer
4. Creating a universe and life on planet earth

No? Oh well, we tried.

So...you witnessed the Red Sea splitting? Someone rising fro the dead? Healing the sick (with verifiable medical records before, and after)? You have verifiable, demonstrable evidence of this "creation" of the universe from a being of intelligence?

No? Then it isn't exactly observable, verifiable, objective evidence now, is it? See, reading about something doesn't mea that something happened. I read Harry Potter, and the Sorcerer's Stone. I don't believe Hogwarts exists either.

No, but an entire Hebrew nation witnessed the Red Sea splitting and still lost faith anyway.

Then Christ raised someone from the dead and they nailed him to a cross......so.....

And yes, creation was created.

Thanks for playing

 

[Czernobog]

Now you are putting words in my mouth. Clearly, if I am standing in front of God, face to face, there is irrefutable physical evidence of his existence, now isn't there. However, that wasn't the question. The question of "God's", was "Why didn't you believe while. You. Were. Alive?" The answer was, "Because there was no rational, observable, objective evidence. I had a brain. I lived my life according to reason," You see, you seem to be trying to find a way to suggest that my position is irrational. Except it isn't. My position is based solely on rational logic, and reason.

The same holds true today, as it would in the mythical afterlife. God wants my obedience? No problem. He knows where I live. Come on over. have a beer, and let's take some selfies. Observable, objective evidence of the existence of God, and I'm all his. I've been waiting for that evidence for the last 35 years. Hasn't been presented, yet.

There would be no physical evidence because in that situation, neither of you would have physical bodies, but spiritual ones. Since that point wasn't caught, more than past time to move on. No, I don't think your position is irrational, but isn't it also true that your brain is more than just the means to observe and process physical data?

Instead of waiting for God to come to you, have you ever considered searching out God in places where the tools of the five senses are of no use at all?

No. There's a word for the "...places where the tools of the five senses are of no use at all..." It's called fantasy. So, no. I don't engage in fantasy.

 

[Czernobog]

I ask this of myself all the time. What event or occurence would stand out from natural phenomenae and be an unmistakle indication of an all-powerful conscious G-d doing something?

If the Earth suddenly stopped rotating for a day or so then started up again, I'd take that as proof of G-d.

An angel materializing before me would suffice as well. Thought I encountered one way back, but think it was just a really beautiful woman I passed in a hallway and our eyes met for a moment. I actually stopped in my tracks awestruck.

You know, things like that.

How about?
1. Splitting the Red Sea
2. Rising from the dead
3. Healing the sick with prayer
4. Creating a universe and life on planet earth

No? Oh well, we tried.

So...you witnessed the Red Sea splitting? Someone rising fro the dead? Healing the sick (with verifiable medical records before, and after)? You have verifiable, demonstrable evidence of this "creation" of the universe from a being of intelligence?

No? Then it isn't exactly observable, verifiable, objective evidence now, is it? See, reading about something doesn't mea that something happened. I read Harry Potter, and the Sorcerer's Stone. I don't believe Hogwarts exists either.

No, but an entire Hebrew nation witnessed the Red Sea splitting and still lost faith anyway.

Then Christ raised someone from the dead and they nailed him to a cross......so.....

And yes, creation was created.

Thanks for playing

You state those things as if they are fact. They aren't. They are only things you read in a book. And claiming something without evidence does not make it so, no matter how much you may wish it does.

So, thank you for playing. Do feel free to pick up your parting gifts on the way out.

 

[Meriweather]

No. There's a word for the "...places where the tools of the five senses are of no use at all..." It's called fantasy. So, no. I don't engage in fantasy.

Fantasy is not the same as subjective.

 

[Czernobog]

No. There's a word for the "...places where the tools of the five senses are of no use at all..." It's called fantasy. So, no. I don't engage in fantasy.

Fantasy is not the same as subjective.

Actually subjective is a lot closer to fantasy than it is reality. That's kinda the point. Reality is not subjective. Fantasy on the other hand? Hey, while we're relying on subjective desires, rather than objective reality, I'm sure the Wolfman, Dracula, ad the Creature from the Black Lagoon are all out there somewhere, too, probably riding pick unicorns that shit rainbow skittles.

After all, let's go with your subjective perceptions. In that case what makes your God any more real than that of Islam? Or those of Hindu? Or Pagans? Or Satanists, for that matter? After all, if we're relying on subjective perceptions, then the adherents of all of those beliefs have subjective perceptions that are just as valid as yours.

Thanks for playing. I'll stick with reality.

 

[Meriweather]

Actually subjective is a lot closer to fantasy than it is reality. That's kinda the point. Reality is not subjective. Fantasy on the other hand? Hey, while we're relying on subjective desires, rather than objective reality, I'm sure the Wolfman, Dracula, ad the Creature from the Black Lagoon are all out there somewhere, too, probably riding pick unicorns that shit rainbow skittles.

After all, let's go with your subjective perceptions. In that case what makes your God any more real than that of Islam? Or those of Hindu? Or Pagans? Or Satanists, for that matter? After all, if we're relying on subjective perceptions, then the adherents of all of those beliefs have subjective perceptions that are just as valid as yours.

Thanks for playing. I'll stick with reality.

My point is that you are not sticking with reality. You are limiting yourself to evidence.

 

[Czernobog]

Actually subjective is a lot closer to fantasy than it is reality. That's kinda the point. Reality is not subjective. Fantasy on the other hand? Hey, while we're relying on subjective desires, rather than objective reality, I'm sure the Wolfman, Dracula, ad the Creature from the Black Lagoon are all out there somewhere, too, probably riding pick unicorns that shit rainbow skittles.

After all, let's go with your subjective perceptions. In that case what makes your God any more real than that of Islam? Or those of Hindu? Or Pagans? Or Satanists, for that matter? After all, if we're relying on subjective perceptions, then the adherents of all of those beliefs have subjective perceptions that are just as valid as yours.

Thanks for playing. I'll stick with reality.

My point is that you are not sticking with reality. You are limiting yourself to evidence.

That, by definition, is reality.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Think of a god you do not believe in.
Now list the reasons you do not believe in that god.
Now use that list as a way of proving any other god does exist.

Face facts, gods are not real. Not any of them.

 

[hobelim]

Think of a god you do not believe in.
Now list the reasons you do not believe in that god.
Now use that list as a way of proving any other god does exist.

Face facts, gods are not real. Not any of them.

I don't know about that.

When scripture refers to a time, in the beginning, when God said this or that, it was the belief that a human being could be a god. They certainly were real even if depicted in fairy tales as mythological creatures that exist high above the harsh realities of the ordinary schlep.

And even if that belief evolved because allegedly an otherworldly superior being 'spoke' to Abraham moses, etc, and gave law for people to conform to under penalty of death there is evidence that that law has real and verifiable effects.

Look at Meriweather. He does what scripture teaches results in death and presto alakazam! He can't follow a rational thought or admit even the smallest error in doing what is obviously under the condemnation of that God as if his mind went into a very deep sleep and was operating under the confusion an unrestrained imagination absent of the ability to think critically or perceive reality as it is much less participate in life without guilt or shame..

If the consequences for defying divine law are real then perhaps the God they are attributed to is real as well.

At the very least, it requires further investigation if your aim is to know the truth.

The case is far from closed.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Think of a god you do not believe in.
Now list the reasons you do not believe in that god.
Now use that list as a way of proving any other god does exist.

Face facts, gods are not real. Not any of them.

I don't know about that.

When scripture refers to a time, in the beginning, when God said this or that, it was the belief that a human being could be a god. They certainly were real even if depicted in fairy tales as mythological creatures that exist high above the harsh realities of the ordinary schlep.

And even if that belief evolved because allegedly an otherworldly superior being 'spoke' to Abraham moses, etc, and gave law for people to conform to under penalty of death there is evidence that that law has real and verifiable effects.

Look at Meriweather. He does what scripture teaches results in death and presto alakazam! He can't follow a rational thought or admit even the smallest error in doing what is obviously under the condemnation of that God as if his mind went into a very deep sleep and was operating under the confusion an unrestrained imagination absent of the ability to think critically or perceive reality as it is much less participate in life without guilt or shame..

If the consequences for defying divine law are real then perhaps the God they are attributed to is real as well.

At the very least, it requires further investigation if your aim is to know the truth.

The case is far from closed.

The truth is that ‘god’ exists as a human concept, a creation of man, an idea that can affect human events.

But there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists.

There is no omnipotent extraterrestrial entity that hears prayers, intercedes on the behalf of humans, and issues religious edicts that must be obeyed lest transgressors are consigned to punishment after death.

That ‘god’ in fact does not exist.

 

[hobelim]

Think of a god you do not believe in.
Now list the reasons you do not believe in that god.
Now use that list as a way of proving any other god does exist.

Face facts, gods are not real. Not any of them.

I don't know about that.

When scripture refers to a time, in the beginning, when God said this or that, it was the belief that a human being could be a god. They certainly were real even if depicted in fairy tales as mythological creatures that exist high above the harsh realities of the ordinary schlep.

And even if that belief evolved because allegedly an otherworldly superior being 'spoke' to Abraham moses, etc, and gave law for people to conform to under penalty of death there is evidence that that law has real and verifiable effects.

Look at Meriweather. He does what scripture teaches results in death and presto alakazam! He can't follow a rational thought or admit even the smallest error in doing what is obviously under the condemnation of that God as if his mind went into a very deep sleep and was operating under the confusion an unrestrained imagination absent of the ability to think critically or perceive reality as it is much less participate in life without guilt or shame..

If the consequences for defying divine law are real then perhaps the God they are attributed to is real as well.

At the very least, it requires further investigation if your aim is to know the truth.

The case is far from closed.

The truth is that ‘god’ exists as a human concept, a creation of man, an idea that can affect human events.

But there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists.

There is no omnipotent extraterrestrial entity that hears prayers, intercedes on the behalf of humans, and issues religious edicts that must be obeyed lest transgressors are consigned to punishment after death.

That ‘god’ in fact does not exist.

I'm sure that for many people that is the absolute truth, sad, but true.


To a seed lying dormant under the dust of the earth there is no god because it is impossible to perceive the realities of life in the light above the ground, the dust of the earth.

Who fusses over a seed that has not germinated, not sprouted life? who would even know its there buried underground? Would a chicken try to feed an egg that hasn't hatched? Can anyone show anything to someone who is not yet born?

Only when a seed comes to life and breaks through the earth to the world above will it be given light and watered and tended to by the gardener.

 

[BreezeWood]

Think of a god you do not believe in.
Now list the reasons you do not believe in that god.
Now use that list as a way of proving any other god does exist.

Face facts, gods are not real. Not any of them.

I don't know about that.

When scripture refers to a time, in the beginning, when God said this or that, it was the belief that a human being could be a god. They certainly were real even if depicted in fairy tales as mythological creatures that exist high above the harsh realities of the ordinary schlep.

And even if that belief evolved because allegedly an otherworldly superior being 'spoke' to Abraham moses, etc, and gave law for people to conform to under penalty of death there is evidence that that law has real and verifiable effects.

Look at Meriweather. He does what scripture teaches results in death and presto alakazam! He can't follow a rational thought or admit even the smallest error in doing what is obviously under the condemnation of that God as if his mind went into a very deep sleep and was operating under the confusion an unrestrained imagination absent of the ability to think critically or perceive reality as it is much less participate in life without guilt or shame..

If the consequences for defying divine law are real then perhaps the God they are attributed to is real as well.

At the very least, it requires further investigation if your aim is to know the truth.

The case is far from closed.

The truth is that ‘god’ exists as a human concept, a creation of man, an idea that can affect human events.

But there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists.

There is no omnipotent extraterrestrial entity that hears prayers, intercedes on the behalf of humans, and issues religious edicts that must be obeyed lest transgressors are consigned to punishment after death.

That ‘god’ in fact does not exist.

I'm sure that for many people that is the absolute truth, sad, but true.


To a seed lying dormant under the dust of the earth there is no god because it is impossible to perceive the realities of life in the light above the ground, the dust of the earth.

Who fusses over a seed that has not germinated, not sprouted life? who would even know its there buried underground? Would a chicken try to feed an egg that hasn't hatched? Can anyone show anything to someone who is not yet born?

Only when a seed comes to life and breaks through the earth to the world above will it be given light and watered and tended to by the gardener.

.

Only when a seed comes to life and breaks through the earth to the world above will it be given light and watered and tended to by the gardener.

and then, the next seed comes from the present seed, could be planed obsolescence for the present one ... from one to the next, back to dust - no trip to the promised land. best not to leave the genome in the first place.

 

[hobelim]

Think of a god you do not believe in.
Now list the reasons you do not believe in that god.
Now use that list as a way of proving any other god does exist.

Face facts, gods are not real. Not any of them.

I don't know about that.

When scripture refers to a time, in the beginning, when God said this or that, it was the belief that a human being could be a god. They certainly were real even if depicted in fairy tales as mythological creatures that exist high above the harsh realities of the ordinary schlep.

And even if that belief evolved because allegedly an otherworldly superior being 'spoke' to Abraham moses, etc, and gave law for people to conform to under penalty of death there is evidence that that law has real and verifiable effects.

Look at Meriweather. He does what scripture teaches results in death and presto alakazam! He can't follow a rational thought or admit even the smallest error in doing what is obviously under the condemnation of that God as if his mind went into a very deep sleep and was operating under the confusion an unrestrained imagination absent of the ability to think critically or perceive reality as it is much less participate in life without guilt or shame..

If the consequences for defying divine law are real then perhaps the God they are attributed to is real as well.

At the very least, it requires further investigation if your aim is to know the truth.

The case is far from closed.

The truth is that ‘god’ exists as a human concept, a creation of man, an idea that can affect human events.

But there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists.

There is no omnipotent extraterrestrial entity that hears prayers, intercedes on the behalf of humans, and issues religious edicts that must be obeyed lest transgressors are consigned to punishment after death.

That ‘god’ in fact does not exist.

I'm sure that for many people that is the absolute truth, sad, but true.


To a seed lying dormant under the dust of the earth there is no god because it is impossible to perceive the realities of life in the light above the ground, the dust of the earth.

Who fusses over a seed that has not germinated, not sprouted life? who would even know its there buried underground? Would a chicken try to feed an egg that hasn't hatched? Can anyone show anything to someone who is not yet born?

Only when a seed comes to life and breaks through the earth to the world above will it be given light and watered and tended to by the gardener.

.

Only when a seed comes to life and breaks through the earth to the world above will it be given light and watered and tended to by the gardener.

and then, the next seed comes from the present seed, could be planed obsolescence for the present one ... from one to the next, back to dust - no trip to the promised land. best not to leave the genome in the first place.

Planned obsolescence? Sure, like a cocoon, and like a cocoon the human body is merely the temporary place in which a spiritual pupa develops, or doesn't, over a lifetime whether long or short in preparation for a new existence in a higher realm of intelligent life..


Have you have mistaken your cocoon for a home? Do you confuse a seed with the potential life form within?

I do realize that a caterpillar won't believe it will become a butterfly, even if an imago landed on the same tree it was climbing on and said so, but aren't you much more than that?


smarten up.

 

[Czernobog]

I do realize that a caterpillar won't believe it will become a butterfly, even if an imago landed on the same tree it was climbing on and said so, but aren't you much more than that?


smarten up.

I couldn't agree more. And the next time some soul comes back from this afterlife, and offers me objective evidence that this is so, I will be the first to change my position. And you can't point to a book that was written some 2,000 years ago, by a bunch of superstitious desert dwellers, as your "evidence", as that is not analogous. You specifically offered the example of a butterfly, personally, visiting the caterpillar, and offering evidence of "things to come". When I have seen such with my own eyes, and can verify, measure, and demonstrate such, then I will change my position.