What’s wrong with America

[ralfy]

Deregulated capitalism.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Obvious facts require no evidence. They are obvious. You need to demonstrate why anyone should ever take you seriously.

Joe Blow's Roofing & Siding, LLC nets a million dollars taxable income. They own a building with a big parking lot, three trucks, some leftover inventory, some machinery, and various tools. The building has been in the family for decades so can no longer be depreciated for tax purposes. The three trucks are new, three years old and six years old. Say they all cost $100,000 as in the example above. Joe Blow reports a salvage value of $10,000 and writes off $9,000 per year for each. $27,000 total.

Before deductions:
At 35% Joe owes 1 $million x 0.35 = $350,000
At 21% Joe owes 1 $million x 0.21 = $210,000
"How did the cut from 35% to 21% help them pay $0?"
Duh! Joe did nothing and is already $140,000 closer to paying no tax.
Joe deducts his $27,000 in depreciation. Now only owes $183,000.
Joe buys another new truck and easily deducts the rest as employee and insurance expenses, paying zero federal tax.

Obvious facts require no evidence. They are obvious.

If they're obvious, it should be easy to post them and show I'm wrong.

Before deductions:
At 35% Joe owes 1 $million x 0.35 = $350,000
At 21% Joe owes 1 $million x 0.21 = $210,000
"How did the cut from 35% to 21% help them pay $0?"
Duh! Joe did nothing and is already $140,000 closer to paying no tax.
Joe deducts his $27,000 in depreciation. Now only owes $183,000.

Excellent! You've posted some evidence, instead of feelings, to prove the claim.
Depreciation, exactly! Depreciation can reduce your income.

deducts the rest as employee and insurance expenses, paying zero federal tax.

Wait, Joe wasn't already deducting employee and insurance expenses under the 35% tax rate?

Joe deducts his $27,000 in depreciation. Now only owes $183,000.

I see an error in your evidence. Depreciation is subtracted from income, not taxes owed.
In your example, at 21%, Joe owes $973,000 x 0.21 = $204,330.

Thank you for trying to prove the claim, that's more than most have done.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

We’ve been bitching about the 1%. Even their wealth hasn’t gone up this much.

Interesting fact. In the years ceo pay has skyrocketed and our wages only 18%, unions went from 35% of the workforce down to about 9%. That means without union protection, labor lost its seat at the table. And this ceo pay reflects that.

And it’s not just the CEOs. It’s all the vps and people right underneath them. All of them pay themselves what they think they are worth and they pay labor what they think it’s worth.

Strong case for why unions are important.

The unions did it to themselves.
First it was corrupted almost entirely by the Mafia.
After that, it went down the same path as ALL movements eventually do - after running out of legitimate issues.. they keep pushing issues to the point of insanity.
Unions eventually turned hard working Americans into lazy, entitled self righteous bums half assing everything while defending a system where absolute terrible employees could never get fired no matter how bad they were - even if that was regularly getting drunk on the clock.

 

[initforme]

It's the job of an employee to take a stand VERSES their employer. It cannot be harmonious and capitalism involves the necessary conflict between employer and employee. The two must be at odds in many respects for it to work best.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Wait, Joe wasn't already deducting employee and insurance expenses under the 35% tax rate?

Joe deducts his $27,000 in depreciation. Now only owes $183,000.

I see an error in your evidence. Depreciation is subtracted from income, not taxes owed.
In your example, at 21%, Joe owes $973,000 x 0.21 = $204,330.

Thank you for trying to prove the claim, that's more than most have done.

You're welcome. And should you learn to read better perhaps you'll ask smarter questions and see the error in your knee-jerk ways.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You're welcome. And should you learn to read better perhaps you'll ask smarter questions and see the error in your knee-jerk ways.

I asked great questions. So far no one has been able to answer.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The answers are "Easy" for Joe Blow. "Child's play" for big corporations.

 

[Flash]

CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978: CEOs were paid 351 times as much as a typical worker in 2020

What this report finds: Corporate boards running America’s largest public firms are giving top executives outsize compensation packages that have grown much faster than the stock market and the pay of typical workers, college graduates, and even the top 0.1%. In 2020, a CEO at one of the top 350...

www.epi.org

CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978​

Our pay went up 18%.

What the fuck do you care that somebody else is making more money than you? Are you that fucking envious?

If you don't like the amount of money you are making then do something more productive and make more money. Don't whine like a little kid because somebody else is making more money than you. It just makes you look like a scumbag.

I have never been harmed by a rich person but the fucking government steals my money every year and gives it away to ghetto welfare queens, illegals and special interest. Government is the problem, not some CEO of a corporation that provides needed goods and services.

Rich people are mostly job producers. The fucking government produces nothing.

If you are zealous of a CEO that makes more money than you then I have a solution for you. Just don't buy any goods or services from the corporation. Then you won't be contributing to his/her salary that has you so bent out of shape. Problem solved!

 

[Ringo]

"If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism. Fascism is private property, private enterprise and total government control and regulation" (с) Ronald Reagan.
And Reagan and his economic team were exactly the model neoliberas.

 

[sealybobo]

I would call it a case of supply and demand

There are hundreds of thousands of common schmo’s like us for every one of them who mske it to the top

That does not mean they are all superior or even worth a damn

The CEO’s of Ford and GM for instance are born fools who are driving their companies into bankruptcy

But they were nevertheless willing to do prerequisite bullshit that put them in a position to be the boss whether they deserve it on merit or not

Google Ford record profits and record profit sharing 1997, 1998, 1999.

Are you sure they were going bankrupt? Or did the George Bush era bankrupt them? When you have recessions and people don't buy cars, no shit GM goes bankrupt.

GM loved going bankrupt. They busted their union and reniged on pensions with that move.

 

[sealybobo]

What the fuck do you care that somebody else is making more money than you? Are you that fucking envious?

If you don't like the amount of money you are making then do something more productive and make more money. Don't whine like a little kid because somebody else is making more money than you. It just makes you look like a scumbag.

I have never been harmed by a rich person but the fucking government steals my money every year and gives it away to ghetto welfare queens, illegals and special interest. Government is the problem, not some CEO of a corporation that provides needed goods and services.

Rich people are mostly job producers. The fucking government produces nothing.

If you are zealous of a CEO that makes more money than you then I have a solution for you. Just don't buy any goods or services from the corporation. Then you won't be contributing to his/her salary that has you so bent out of shape. Problem solved!

What the fuck does a poor Chinaman care what rich people are making in China?

Isn't that how we judge how good our economy is you dumb fuck? If there is a small rich class, small merchant class and the masses are the rabble, guess what? That's why we left England. To escape that kind of economy. But that's what trickle down is producing. Dummy.

 

[Flash]

What the fuck does a poor Chinaman care what rich people are making in China?

Isn't that how we judge how good our economy is you dumb fuck? If there is a small rich class, small merchant class and the masses are the rabble, guess what? That's why we left England. To escape that kind of economy. But that's what trickle down is producing. Dummy.

Just worry about what you make you greedy little asshole.

If you don't like a CEO making more money than you then just don't buy anything from the corporation that pays him/her the salary that has you so bent out of shape.

Or maybe get off your lazy ass and work hard and then you can be a CEO yourself.

If you want to have to have more spendable income then join me in demanding that we have smaller cost of government. In addition to Potatohead massive inflation that is what is really taking away money from families. The combined cost of Federal, State and Local government in the US is almost 40% of the GDP and that is the problem you nitwit.

How can you have anything when the fucking government takes the money that you earn and gives it to Illegals, Union shitheads and Environmental Wackos?

Of course you can do like the Clintons, Obamas and Bidens do and run for office and then get rich selling out your country to foreign interest. You will be very rich then.

Just quit your envious little bitching. It just makes you look like a pathetic asshole.

 

[marvin martian]

What the fuck does a poor Chinaman care what rich people are making in China?

Isn't that how we judge how good our economy is you dumb fuck? If there is a small rich class, small merchant class and the masses are the rabble, guess what? That's why we left England. To escape that kind of economy. But that's what trickle down is producing. Dummy.

Marry a Biden if it bothers you. They got rich selling our country to Russia and China, you can get a piece of the action.

 

[Mac-7]

Google Ford record profits and record profit sharing 1997, 1998, 1999.

Are you sure they were going bankrupt? Or did the George Bush era bankrupt them? When you have recessions and people don't buy cars, no shit GM goes bankrupt.

GM loved going bankrupt. They busted their union and reniged on pensions with that move.

The auto workers union has been a curse to GM

Yes management has strongly contributed to the decline also but so did the workers

Foreign auto makers operate non inion factories in the US that are very profitable for the company and the employees

Unions can be good but greed and laziness were the ruin of American and British auto workers

 

[sealybobo]

Just worry about what you make you greedy little asshole.

If you don't like a CEO making more money than you then just don't buy anything from the corporation that pays him/her the salary that has you so bent out of shape.

Or maybe get off your lazy ass and work hard and then you can be a CEO yourself.

If you want to have to have more spendable income then join me in demanding that we have smaller cost of government. In addition to Potatohead massive inflation that is what is really taking away money from families. The combined cost of Federal, State and Local government in the US is almost 40% of the GDP and that is the problem you nitwit.

How can you have anything when the fucking government takes the money that you earn and gives it to Illegals, Union shitheads and Environmental Wackos?

Of course you can do like the Clintons, Obamas and Bidens do and run for office and then get rich selling out your country to foreign interest. You will be very rich then.

Just quit your envious little bitching. It just makes you look like a pathetic asshole.

Ha! That's what my brother said. He's a VP making $1 million dollars a year. No offense to him or you, but what a lame comeback. Fuck you guys. You must be rich too.

I basically told him if CEO pay went up 1322% and our pay only went up 18%, I basically told him he should only be making $500K a year. Because he makes around $1 million.

Every fucking company I invest in, their CEO's make too much. Their VP's make too much. So I guess because I invest in those companies, I'm complicit.

Well, I'm not for legislating that they make less. I think the employees of those companies need to unionize. Not all of them. Just 25%. That will make the other 75% pay better. The best defense against greedy CEO's, and VP's, is the threat of a union.

But you see today, companies are willing to pay a lot of money to take on potential unions. They pay companies a lot of money to bust up those attempts. So labor is still at the kitty table right now in America.

In 1978, America was great. It as great in 88, 98, 2008, 2018 too. It just keeps on getting less great every year. For the middle class.

For the rich, it has gotten better every year.

Employers are winning. Back in our day both of us won. But today employers, corporations, are doing all the winning.

Hey, make what the rest of you should be making. I thrive on every man for himself survival of the fittest because my skills are in high demand. Consider me the White Ben Carson.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Ha! That's what my brother said. He's a VP making $1 million dollars a year. No offense to him or you, but what a lame comeback. Fuck you guys. You must be rich too.

I basically told him if CEO pay went up 1322% and our pay only went up 18%, I basically told him he should only be making $500K a year. Because he makes around $1 million.

Every fucking company I invest in, their CEO's make too much. Their VP's make too much. So I guess because I invest in those companies, I'm complicit.

Well, I'm not for legislating that they make less. I think the employees of those companies need to unionize. Not all of them. Just 25%. That will make the other 75% pay better. The best defense against greedy CEO's, and VP's, is the threat of a union.

But you see today, companies are willing to pay a lot of money to take on potential unions. They pay companies a lot of money to bust up those attempts. So labor is still at the kitty table right now in America.

In 1978, America was great. It as great in 88, 98, 2008, 2018 too. It just keeps on getting less great every year. For the middle class.

For the rich, it has gotten better every year.

Employers are winning. Back in our day both of us won. But today employers, corporations, are doing all the winning.

Hey, make what the rest of you should be making. I thrive on every man for himself survival of the fittest because my skills are in high demand. Consider me the White Ben Carson.

I basically told him if CEO pay went up 1322% and our pay only went up 18%,

You lied.

Chief Executives

www.bls.gov

 

[sealybobo]

I basically told him if CEO pay went up 1322% and our pay only went up 18%,

You lied.

View attachment 809773

Chief Executives

www.bls.gov

Is that from 1978 to now?

And are you showing just their salaries? What about their compensation packages and golden parachuttes? I bet you aren't factoring in those.

This source goes into great detail explaining why you are wrong and even provides sources

CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978: CEOs were paid 351 times as much as a typical worker in 2020

What this report finds: Corporate boards running America’s largest public firms are giving top executives outsize compensation packages that have grown much faster than the stock market and the pay of typical workers, college graduates, and even the top 0.1%. In 2020, a CEO at one of the top 350...

www.epi.org

And this is the Economic Policy Institute. Where did you get your information?

This explains it

In 2020, a CEO at one of the top 350 firms in the U.S. was paid $24.2 million on average (using a “realized” measure of CEO pay that counts stock awards when vested and stock options when cashed in rather than when granted). This 18.9% increase from 2019 occurred because of rapid growth in vested stock awards and exercised stock options. Using a different “granted” measure of CEO pay, average top CEO compensation was $13.9 million in 2020, slightly below its level in 2019. In 2020, the ratio of CEO-to-typical-worker compensation was 351-to-1 under the realized measure of CEO pay; that is up from 307-to-1 in 2019 and a big increase from 21-to-1 in 1965 and 61-to-1 in 1989. CEOs are even making a lot more than other very high earners (wage earners in the top 0.1%)—more than six times as much. From 1978 to 2020, CEO pay based on realized compensation grew by 1,322%, far outstripping S&P stock market growth (817%) and top 0.1% earnings growth (which was 341% between 1978 and 2019, the latest data available). In contrast, compensation of the typical worker grew by just 18.0% from 1978 to 2020.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Is that from 1978 to now?

And are you showing just their salaries? What about their compensation packages and golden parachuttes? I bet you aren't factoring in those.

This source goes into great detail explaining why you are wrong and even provides sources

CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978: CEOs were paid 351 times as much as a typical worker in 2020

What this report finds: Corporate boards running America’s largest public firms are giving top executives outsize compensation packages that have grown much faster than the stock market and the pay of typical workers, college graduates, and even the top 0.1%. In 2020, a CEO at one of the top 350...

www.epi.org

And this is the Economic Policy Institute. Where did you get your information?

This explains it

In 2020, a CEO at one of the top 350 firms in the U.S. was paid $24.2 million on average (using a “realized” measure of CEO pay that counts stock awards when vested and stock options when cashed in rather than when granted). This 18.9% increase from 2019 occurred because of rapid growth in vested stock awards and exercised stock options. Using a different “granted” measure of CEO pay, average top CEO compensation was $13.9 million in 2020, slightly below its level in 2019. In 2020, the ratio of CEO-to-typical-worker compensation was 351-to-1 under the realized measure of CEO pay; that is up from 307-to-1 in 2019 and a big increase from 21-to-1 in 1965 and 61-to-1 in 1989. CEOs are even making a lot more than other very high earners (wage earners in the top 0.1%)—more than six times as much. From 1978 to 2020, CEO pay based on realized compensation grew by 1,322%, far outstripping S&P stock market growth (817%) and top 0.1% earnings growth (which was 341% between 1978 and 2019, the latest data available). In contrast, compensation of the typical worker grew by just 18.0% from 1978 to 2020.

Is that from 1978 to now?

If you think the median ($189,520) or the average ($246,440) increased by 1322% since 1978, I'd
be happy to examine your evidence.

And are you showing just their salaries? What about their compensation packages and golden parachuttes? I bet you aren't factoring in those.

It's the BLS. I'm not sure what they factor in.
Do you think all 199,000 CEOs have stock options and golden parachutes?

And this is the Economic Policy Institute.

Yeah, a union shop. I'm sure their stats are very trustworthy. LOL!

Where did you get your information?

BLS.gov

Chief Executives

www.bls.gov

In 2020, a CEO at one of the top 350 firms in the U.S.

If you want to change your claim to "350 mega firms saw CEO pay based on realized compensation grow by 1,322%", that won't be a lie.

 

[sealybobo]

Is that from 1978 to now?

If you think the median ($189,520) or the average ($246,440) increased by 1322% since 1978, I'd
be happy to examine your evidence.

And are you showing just their salaries? What about their compensation packages and golden parachuttes? I bet you aren't factoring in those.

It's the BLS. I'm not sure what they factor in.
Do you think all 199,000 CEOs have stock options and golden parachutes?

And this is the Economic Policy Institute.

Yeah, a union shop. I'm sure their stats are very trustworthy. LOL!

Where did you get your information?

BLS.gov

Chief Executives

www.bls.gov

In 2020, a CEO at one of the top 350 firms in the U.S.

If you want to change your claim to "350 mega firms saw CEO pay based on realized compensation grow by 1,322%", that won't be a lie.

My brother is a VP of HR for a fortune 500 company. I know how the game is played.

Stop denying it. CEO pay since 1978 has SKYROCKETED and our pay has stalled. In that same time, union membership went from 35% to 9%. That means labor has no seat at the table.

So in reality, if you asked a rich person, when was America it's greatest? They'd say now. We would say 1978.

And remember it didn't go from great in 1978 to sucking in 1979. Slowly pensions went away. In the 80's didn't they raise the retirement age on future generations too? So slowly over 40 years our pay stalled and then on top of that we had to work 2 years longer?

My brother actually has a sweetheart deal right now too. He's so burned out but if he makes it to October 1st, he gets an extra $300,000. That's a pretty fucking nice bonus huh? That has nothing to do with his stock options. He says based on how his stocks are doing he either makes $900K a year or $1,100,000 a year. And he can't cash all his stocks out at once. There are rules. But bottom line is this shady shit is how they sort of hide how much the CEO actually makes. If you just look at his salary, maybe it doesn't look so obscene. But look at his total compensation package including his pension and golden parachute? Have you factored all that in?

You probably have not. Not only does my brother get $300K if he makes it to October 1st, he also gets a year salary. It's a long story but his replacement (a woman) left for a better job because companies are willing to pay a woman or black double what a white man gets, so he was tasked with finding another diversity candidate. He finally found a gay black dude. Anyways, the deal was he would stay 6 months after they named the new VP so October he will get the $300K plus a years pay as long as he sits home for a year after he quits.

Do we ever get such a deal? Nope. How come these guys are still giving themselves pensions? I thought pensions were a bad idea. Did you factor in that these CEO's who retire will be paid a lot by the company for the rest of their lives? Oh yea. They can't afford to give you a pension but they give them to themselves. Maybe that factors in to the 1322% number. HUH???

 

[sealybobo]

Is that from 1978 to now?

If you think the median ($189,520) or the average ($246,440) increased by 1322% since 1978, I'd
be happy to examine your evidence.

And are you showing just their salaries? What about their compensation packages and golden parachuttes? I bet you aren't factoring in those.

It's the BLS. I'm not sure what they factor in.
Do you think all 199,000 CEOs have stock options and golden parachutes?

And this is the Economic Policy Institute.

Yeah, a union shop. I'm sure their stats are very trustworthy. LOL!

Where did you get your information?

BLS.gov

Chief Executives

www.bls.gov

In 2020, a CEO at one of the top 350 firms in the U.S.

If you want to change your claim to "350 mega firms saw CEO pay based on realized compensation grow by 1,322%", that won't be a lie.

From 1978 to 2020, CEO pay based on realized compensation grew by 1,322%

Realized compensation is cash and equity compensation actually received by the CEO during the respective year, comprising salary, cash bonus attributable to the year, net spread on stock option exercises, and market value at vesting of previously granted restricted stock units.

I wonder why they make it so confusing. Don't act like you understand it.

Realized Pay - Explained

What is Realized Pay? The pay reporting methods required for disclosure to public companies continues to be a debate, especially as companies, shareholders

thebusinessprofessor.com

There are three types of pay disclosures.

• Reported Pay - Being the first stage in the cycle, this part relays what is initially granted, even though its not earned during the fiscal year. As required by the SEC, reported pay is to be disclosed in the SCT (summary compensation table) of annual proxies.
• Realizable Pay - This portion covers the center of the cycle, and it leverages on the pay opportunity prior to the exercise or vesting of equity to an executive after grant.
• Realized Pay - Also called actual pay, it is the true pay received by an executive during the fiscal year, in addition to exercised or vested equity.