Where did anti-semitism originate from?

[dilloduck]

Arabs already in Israel good------all other arabs bad?

 

[Comrade]

Victims of ethnic cleasing ARE SUPPOSED TO BE “outside of the soveregn borders of Israel, without Israeli citizenship”, otherwise they wouldn’t be VICTIMS OF ETHNIC CLEASING. LOL

WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ISRAL NOT BEING A DEMOCRACY? We've been over this and I'm sick of being ignored about the definition of such.

The population of cuba were not expelled from the US after having lived there for hundreds if not thousands of years, THE ARAB POPULATION OF PALESTINE WAS. So much for “twisting of logic”.

Actually, ajwps had a much better example, think Mexico then. I don't care what you say, the Mexicans have no rights to US land even though some continue to claim them. I say screw the right to return for Palestinians to, who lost their claim in a similar war. Is that harsh? Well fuck 'em. :finger:

After all, they've had their chance for decades to form their own democracy and blew it, time and again.

Everybody... repeat after Uncle Joe again (you already know, a delicious lollipop awaits you if you say it properly):

Right of return of refugees IS NOT THE SAME THING as immigration.

So let's just give back Texas to any who had forefathers who once lived there. That also goes for Spain in which Muslims once lived. That goes for Italians in Britiannia. That goes for every other people who all once had forefathers in another land... screw all the national boundaries and respect for soveriegnty, right? Including, obviously, all their families, which in fact now has grown to millions of new people.

Or IS THIS RIGHT JUST FOR ARABS LIVING IN ISREAL?

You folks are so inconsistent in applying this policy, and the only time I understand what you really want is when you constantly pull this out as some kind of rare exeption only the Jews should be subject to. It's just about the Jews to you people, it always is.

International law and common morality tell us that these refugees have the right to return and as long as they are prevented from doing so, Israel can’t be considered a democracy, only a jewish racial dictatorship imposed by the jewish leaders of Israel, more or less like SA under apartheid was an africaner racial dictatorship.

Go back earlier in the thread and look up "International Law" as what the EU said to do. Then you'll see how fucked up this is.

Israel denies these people their right to live in their ancestral home and deny them their civil rights, so Israel qualifies for the title of dictatorship in the same way Iraq under Hussein did.

Ahah! Israel = Saddam. Bush = Hitler. Like that?

The only thing that prevents americans from realising this fact is that they have fell in love with this racial dictatorship.

I'm an American and you don't speak for me.

Unfortunately most people in this particular moment in history are still stuck in a Cold War mentality, when right and left still made sense.

I think some people are stuck in some kind of Islamic asshole mentality about Isreal. Total dupes for the Palestinian and Arab Muslim propaganda. If only the "right to return" was satisfied the whole area would be all hunky dory and we could go back to loving each other... right shahid?

You are the one who fell in love with Israel and keeping calling this racial dictatorship a “democracy”.

Blahh blah blah, so it's NOT a Democracy because???

Let’s face it, politics in the Middle East looks like a nightmare and Israel is PART of this nightmare not the exception.

And I guess you personally would rather choose to live anywhere but Israel, were you forced to live somewhere in the Middle East? Maybe, but not me! And I'm not even religious.

 

[Comrade]

Arabs already in Israel good------all other arabs bad?

No, a nation formed by a people living in a Democracy, good.

A dictatorship or theocracy subjugating a people with the intent to destroy other Democracies, bad.

 

[ajwps]

Arabs already in Israel good------all other arabs bad?

What are you referencing in this rather bizzare sentence?

 

[dilloduck]

apparently you are willing to accept the arabs that already live in Israel but not those who are kept out.

 

[ajwps]

apparently you are willing to accept the arabs that already live in Israel but not those who are kept out.

I have no concept of where you got this idea. Any country who harbors their sworn killers has no business surviving. Ergo if the Arabs choose to attack and murder Jews, they are asking for expulsion as a matter of logic.

 

[dilloduck]

The title of this thread pertains to the beginnings anti-semitsm. I intend to try to keep my comments in this thread related to that question. There are other threads to discuss this issue on.

 

[ajwps]

The title of this thread pertains to the beginnings anti-semitsm. I intend to try to keep my comments in this thread related to that question. There are other threads to discuss this issue on.

So you want to know about the beginnings or origins of anti-semitism?

Were can we start? How about the very first time other peoples came into contact with the Hebrew people. It seems that other nations did not like those to become Jews because they had bad breath, looked funny or maybe because they brought the commandments of a moral and ethical behavior which were an anethma to the baser nature of mankind.

 

[dilloduck]

It was 777 who wanted to know--not me. I'm sure people have different views regarding the answer to this question.

here--take another stab at it-(you may want to leave out the bad breath part if you want to be taken seriously).

My question to everyone is more of a historical question. What is it that provoked anti-semitism throughout the history, even before the fighting between Israel and Palestine? In other words, when and why did anti-semitism emerge and still continues today? I would like hear historical accounts, not opinions.

This post is in no way to be construed as anti-semitic. I am just trying to understand why things are the way they are. I grew up in an environment where I wasn’t exposed to preconceived negative ideas about a particular race or ethnicity. Finland doesn’t have minorities per say, nor racial statistics on how many crimes are committed by particular race. Nor is any particular group portrayed in a more negative light than another. So, in my eyes, be it wherever anyone came from, were pretty much equal. The concepts of anti-semitism and racism were foreign to me until I arrived to this country. Both concepts are much spoken here. People are being accused of being anti-semitist. There is affirmative action in place. Race cards are pulled out. Blatant racism takes place everyday, albeit a minority of population engages in it (or I should hope so), and so on. Obviously, racism and anti-semitism are to be found in many, many places in the world so please don’t write back for having portrayed USA in a negative light. That is not the argument here in any case.

So, back to the original question so that everyone is clear: Where did anti-semitism originate from and why and still continues even today?

Just trying to understand …

 

[freeandfun1]

It was 777 who wanted to know--not me. I'm sure people have different views regarding the answer to this question.

here--take another stab at it-(you may want to leave out the bad breath part if you want to be taken seriously).

My question to everyone is more of a historical question. What is it that provoked anti-semitism throughout the history, even before the fighting between Israel and Palestine? In other words, when and why did anti-semitism emerge and still continues today? I would like hear historical accounts, not opinions.

This post is in no way to be construed as anti-semitic. I am just trying to understand why things are the way they are. I grew up in an environment where I wasn’t exposed to preconceived negative ideas about a particular race or ethnicity. Finland doesn’t have minorities per say, nor racial statistics on how many crimes are committed by particular race. Nor is any particular group portrayed in a more negative light than another. So, in my eyes, be it wherever anyone came from, were pretty much equal. The concepts of anti-semitism and racism were foreign to me until I arrived to this country. Both concepts are much spoken here. People are being accused of being anti-semitist. There is affirmative action in place. Race cards are pulled out. Blatant racism takes place everyday, albeit a minority of population engages in it (or I should hope so), and so on. Obviously, racism and anti-semitism are to be found in many, many places in the world so please don’t write back for having portrayed USA in a negative light. That is not the argument here in any case.

So, back to the original question so that everyone is clear: Where did anti-semitism originate from and why and still continues even today?

Just trying to understand …

From my observations only, the majority of anti-semitism originates from the simple act of jealousy and or envy. Jews tend to work harder and have more and that makes people angry.

I look at the Chinese as being the Jews of Asia. They go to Indonesia, Malaysia and places like that where they are minorities and then they work their asses off, make money and provide nice lives for their families. They do the jobs noboby else want to do, then when they make money off of doing it, everybody gets mad. In 1999 and 2000 many thousands of Chinese were run out of Indonesia cuz the Indonesians didn't like the fact that the Chinese held most of the power there. Why did they? Because they worked harder, smarter and more efficiently than the locals and the locals hated it.

Well, the Jews do that but they do it in Europe and the USA so we westerners tend to focus our hate on them while Asians focus their hate on the Chinese.

I don't know if that makes sense, but it is just my humble opinion.

 

[r2200t]

I found this: http://www.bicom.org.uk/faqs_Arabcitizens.html

And I found this article about the different ID cards based on religion....
summing UP thos listed As "Israeli Arabs" Get questionned, denied access, get beatings, strip searches ...etc... It's called a model democracy for the free..if you are Jewish that is. Each ID card states your religion, for curiousity purposes of course...

 

[dilloduck]

Another historical perception:
Even many zionists of the time conceded that there was no legitimate reason for having a Jewish state as long as the Jews who lived in Palestine were guaranteed the freedom and security of the other inhabitants of the region.

Jastrow correctly predicted that the intertwining of religion and nationality -- political zionism -- would have negative consequences. Whereas non-Jews have only one country and one loyalty -- Americans are American, the French are French, etc. -- Jews are seen as having split loyalties. They are both citizens of the country in which they live and also supporters of the Jewish state. Thus, Jews who live outside of Israel (occupied Palestine) are seen as being less than totally loyal to the country where they reside. This political difference adds to the anti-semitism that already exists, just as Jastrow predicted.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/mcgee.html

 

[freeandfun1]

. . . . Jews who live outside of Israel (occupied Palestine). . . .

Why do you call Israel "occupied Palestine" when it was Israel that followed the UN and formed their nation?

If you had said that live outside Israel and the "parts of Palestine that they do occupy", then I might actually try to read and understand what you posted. Your statement clearly shows that you ignore the facts and have jumped on the "hate the Jews" bandwagon.

 

[EuroIrish]

The Jews are a great religion, while the actions of Isreal are questionable in the extreme. I admire the Jews in the same way I admire the French.

To the moronic fool who claimed to be Irish, stay in the States you Plastic Paddy, your not Irish, dreaming about your great great great great grandfather doesn't make you Irish, its a way of life not Leprechauns, riverdance and Begorra. All the above make us real Irish nearly have a heart attack from laughter.

The Irish of Ireland are anti-war, pro-European, have a friendly outlook on Britain, don't give a toss if we ever get Northern Ireland back (look what happened to Germany, the relatively poor Northern Irish + they are absolute nutters, both sides). Pro-Jewish, anti-Israeli army & government. We drink too much (so some stereotypes are true). We spend hours in tailbacks. We are mostly left-leaning, but with some right of centre tendencies. So pretty central ground. We love sport, music, we enjoy the craic(not to be confused with crack, it means we are fun-loving). Our women are complete slappers (cool), but not as much as British women (they have gone to far down the sluttishness carry on), like the song says an angel on the streets a slut in the bed.

That’s a tangent, a very Irish trait. Son of Erin (which you are so not). If you where truly one you would know that is a miss-spelled Anglicisation. Its Eireann not Erin.

Slan Abhaile.

 

[José]

Let’s imagine that this message board pays three individuals to analyze the posts and rate them. Let’s call them “judges”.

Judge 1: “ People...I gotta tell you...if there is something one can call a verbal knock out it has to be José’s last three posts. I think we should turn this thread “Where did anti-semitism originate from” into a read only thread, because his comparison and analysis of the founding documents of the US and Israel proved beyond any doubt that Israel is just another Middle Eastern dictatorship. Further comments will only distract readers from his devastating arguments. His adversaries were completely crushed by the sheer force of the arguments he exposed. There’s no other way to put it: IT WAS A REAL MASSACRE. I feel a bit sorry for ajwps and the others, but then again, this is what you get when you support a country that is based on the values of Nazi Germany. If José started supporting the theocratic monarchy of Saudi Arabia, he too would have his ass handed to him. To be more precise, José didn’t win the debate, AMERICA won the debate THROUGH José, so it’s not fair to blame him for their defeat.”

Judge 2: “ Well, my friend, you talked about closing this thread called “Where did anti-semitism originate from?”, but to tell you the truth, I’m willing to go a step further. I’m going to write an email to the administrator of the US MESSAGE BOARD and ask him to close the entire Israel/Palestine section forever, because I don’t think anything need to be added to José’s last three posts.”

Judge 1: “Where are you going, Judge 3?”

Judge 3: “ Home.”

Judge 1: “ What are you going to do there?? We still have some posts to analyze here.”

Judge 3: “ I have to go home and burn the israeli flag I have in my living room. After reading José’s last three posts, I don’t think I’ll be able to keep it there as long as I live.”

Judge 2: “ You are not alone, my friend, you are not alone.”

 

[Comrade]

Let’s imagine that this message board pays three individuals to analise the posts and rate them. Let’s call them “judges”.

Judge 1: “ People...I gotta tell you...if there is something one can call a verbal knock out it has to be José’s last three posts. I think we should turn this thread “Where did anti-semitism originate from” into a read only thread, because his comparison and analysis of the founding documents of the US and Israel proved beyond any doubt that Israel is just another Middle Eastern dictatorship. Further comments will only distract readers from his devastating arguments. His adversaries were completely crushed by the sheer force of the arguments he exposed. There’s no other way to put it: IT WAS A REAL MASSACRE. I feel a bit sorry for ajwps and the others, but then again, this is what you get when you support a country that is based on the values of Nazi Germany. If José started supporting the theocratic monarchy of Saudi Arabia, he too would have his ass handed to him. To be more precise, José didn’t win the debate, AMERICA won the debate THROUGH José, so it’s not fair to blame him for their defeat.”

Judge 2: “ Well, my friend, you talked about closing this thread called “Where did anti-semitism originate from?”, but to tell you the truth, I’m willing to go a step further. I’m going to write an email to the administrator of the US MESSAGE BOARD and ask him to close the entire Israel/Palestine section forever, because I don’t think anything need to be added to José’s last three posts.”

Judge 1: “Where are you going, Judge 3?”

Judge 3: “ Home.”

Judge 1: “ What are you going to do there?? We still have some posts to analise here.”

Judge 3: “ I have to go home and burn the israeli flag I have in my living room. After reading José’s last three posts, I don’t think I’ll be able to keep it there as long as I live.”

Judge 2: “ You are not alone, my friend, you are not alone.”

Jose, you need to reel in that giant size ego a bit, methinks!

 

[dilloduck]

LOL it sorta sounded like RWA there for a second.

 

[José]

Comrade,

You and Dillo know exactly WHO I had in mind when I wrote that satire. And it was not you. LOL

You are a NICE guy. I respect you enough to not humiliate you in front of everybody, because you, at least, discuss the issues IN GOOD FAITH, which is more than I can say about HIM. LOL

OK, after this brief kumbaya moment, let’s join the fray again. : )

 

[José]

Comrade

Let me ask you a question:

Would you be willing to consider South Africa under apartheid a democracy?

The whole idea behind the South African apartheid system was to strip blacks of their South African citizenship and make them citizens of the so called Black States or Bantustans.

A South African law that regulated citizenship, made every black South African a citizen of these Black States (WHETHER OR NOT THEY LIVED THERE, yes you heard it right, they were made citizens of this state irrespective of actual residence).

They lost their South African citizenship and BECAME CITIZENS OF A COUNTRY THEY HAD NEVER LIVED IN.

This was the South African EQUIVALENT of the ethnic cleansing of 1948.

Israel 1948: hundreds of thousands of arabs are expelled or not allowed to return to Israel, losing their right to reside in their places of origin and be citizens of this state.

South Africa 1970: millions of black africans are expelled and not allowed to return to South Africa, losing their right to reside in their places of origin, losing their South African citizenship and, in most cases, having to have passes (almost impossible to get) to work outside their “country” and visit their own hometowns.

The whole idea behind the ethnic cleansing of 1948 was to deny citizenship to arabs and LEAVE JEWS AS THE MAJORITY IN ISRAEL.

The whole idea behind the Black States or Bantustans, was to strip blacks of South African citizenship and LEAVE WHITES AS THE MAJORITY IN SOUTH AFRICA.

Their hope was that once apartheid had been implemented to the point where there was a “white majority”, South Africa would be recognised by the world as a “real” democracy. They thought:

“When all blacks are living in Transkei, Ciskei and other Bantustans, Comrade will surely call us a “democracy”. Hell, he calls Israel a democracy, why wouldn’t he call us either?”

Well, Comrade, unfortunately for the racist government of South Africa, they didn’t have enough time to implement their policy of ethnic cleansing. As internal support for apartheid began to waver and international opposition began to grow in the 80’s, the South African government abandoned its intention to relocate the entire black population to the so called “independent” Black States. What happened then is well known. That racist state was peacefully dismantled and replaced by a state of citizens.

If in your view, the only thing a racist country has to do to be considered a democracy is to expell large numbers of the undesirable ethnicity and then hold elections, then the logic of your own argument will force you to consider South Africa under white rule a democracy (at least, if they had had time to implement their plan to become a “majority” in SA).

BOTH SOUTH AFRICA AND ISRAEL EXPELLED BLACKS AND ARABS TO MANUFACTURE A WHITE/JEW MAJORITY AND CREATE A SHAM DEMOCRACY.

You can’t have both ways, Comrade, either Israel is an apartheid state or South Africa was a democracy in the making.

Elections in South Africa excluded blacks expelled and soon to be expelled from SA, elections in Israel excludes arabs expelled from Israel.

If you don’t consider the elections held in SA under apartheid to be democratic you shouldn’t consider israeli elections either...unless you think it’s ok to be a democracy that expells arabs and wrong to be a democracy that expells blacks.

 

[ajwps]

Comrade

Let me ask you a question: Would you be willing to consider South Africa under apartheid a democracy? The whole idea behind the South African apartheid system was to strip blacks of their South African citizenship and make them citizens of the so called Black States or Bantustans. A South African law that regulated citizenship, made every black South African a citizen of these Black States (WHETHER OR NOT THEY LIVED THERE, yes you heard it right, they were made citizens of this state irrespective of actual residence ) They lost their South African citizenship and BECAME CITIZENS OF A COUNTRY THEY HAD NEVER LIVED IN.. This was the South African EQUIVALENT of the ethnic cleansing of 1948. Israel 1948: hundreds of thousands of arabs are expelled or not allowed to return to Israel, losing their right to reside in their places of origin and be citizens of this state. South Africa 1970: millions of black africans are expelled and not allowed to return to South Africa, losing their right to reside in their places of origin, losing their South African citizenship and, in most cases, having to have passes (almost impossible to get) to work outside their “country” and visit their own hometowns. The whole idea behind the ethnic cleansing of 1948 was to deny citizenship to arabs and LEAVE JEWS AS THE MAJORITY IN ISRAEL. The whole idea behind the Black States or Bantustans, was to strip blacks of South African citizenship and LEAVE WHITES AS THE MAJORITY IN SOUTH AFRICA. Their hope was that once apartheid had been implemented to the point where there was a “white majority”, South Africa would be recognised by the world as a “real” democracy. They thought: “When all blacks are living in Transkei, Ciskei and other Bantustans, Comrade will surely call us “democracy”. Hell, he calls Israel a democracy, why wouldn’t he call us either?” Well, Comrade, unfortunately for the racist government of South Africa, they didn’t have enough time to implement their policy of ethnic cleansing. As internal support for apartheid began to waver and international opposition began to grow in the 80’s, the South African government abandoned its intention to relocate the entire black population to the so called “independent” Black States. What happened then is well known. That racist state was peacefully dismantled and replaced by a state of citizens.
If in your view, the only thing a racist country has to do to be considered a democracy is to expell large numbers of the undesirable ethnicity and then hold elections, then the logic of your own argument will force you to consider South Africa under white rule a democracy (at least, if they had had time to implement their plan to become a “majority” in SA). BOTH SOUTH AFRICA AND ISRAEL EXPELLED BLACKS AND ARABS TO MANUFACTURE A WHITE/JEW MAJORITY AND CREATE A SHAM DEMOCRACY. You can’t have both ways, Comrade, either Israel is an apartheid state or South Africa was a democracy in the making. Elections in South Africa excluded blacks expelled and soon to be expelled from SA, elections in Israel excludes arabs expelled from Israel.
If you don’t consider the elections held in SA under apartheid to be democratic you shouldn’t consider israeli elections either...unless you think it’s ok to be a democracy that expells arabs and wrong to be a democracy that expells blacks.

Shahid José:

So you don't even try to back up your fabricated subterfuges with any facts. Just blanket allegations with not one bit of evidence. You are so typical of the Qur'anic Al-Taqiyya (lying and deceptions for Allah) to confuse non-Muslims to protect your stone moon-god.

Every word with which you are accusing Israel are the actual truths about the Muslim countries of the world. EXACTLY THE APARTHEID PURE ETHNIC MUSLIM actions against the Jewish people and the rest of mankind.

You and your allies will soon learn just how false and empty you and your religion of hate and murder which will now gain Islam's just reward. Today, Tuesday July 27th, your Muslim brothers in the apartheid states of Iran, Damascus, Amman and Lebanon will see the joint American/Israeli test of the most powerfully accurate Arrow anti-ballistic missile system which will for the first time intercept a real Scud missile at high altitude over the Pacific Ocean off the California shore. This missle has been tested in Israel under all kinds of conditions and so far none have missed their mark.