Where did anti-semitism originate from?

[José]

originally posted by Comrade
What is not equal? The right to vote? The right to freely worship? Specifically, please, what rights do Jewish citizens have in Israel have that Arab Muslims lack? Soveriegn Israel. What right is lacking?
Which Arabs? Palestinian Arabs? Where Israeli soveriegnty doesn't apply?

See what I mean dillo???

Calling this a dialogue of deafs is an understatement LOL

I give up : )

 

[José]

originally posted by Comrade
What right is lacking?

The most important of all Comrade...the right of return : )

 

[José]

Comrade uses the pic of a guy urinating on Saddam.

I gather he support the right of return of the kurdish population expelled by him.

Kurds can return, palestinian arabs cannot. Go figure..

 

[Comrade]

I know...the minority who were grudgingly allowed to stay in Israel after Ben Gurion decided the arabs already outside Israel were enough to manufacture a jewish majority and create the sham democracy of Israel.

No sham. Leave Palestinians out of it, they are not soveriegn to Isreal, are they?

Let me see if I understand... Stereotypes about jews being rich are not allowed, only stereotypes about arab societies being intrinsically non democratic. : ) By the way, it is not a stereotype just a historical fact. I guess you can say the same about arab societies.

Arab societies are not democratic. Jews are not the richest class of people as a whole.

How come is not about blame? You were the one complaining about the ethnic cleansing of the jewish population of the arab countries.

Just drawing a comparison to Arab states.

When jews are expelled it’s ok to put the blame on the arabs, but when the jews expell other ethnicities is only about history and war?

Jewish leaders didn't expell others. Read the sourced data I offered. Provide sourced data to the contrary.

There was also forced displacement of Jews INSIDE ISRAEL, in Jerusalem and Gush Etzion for example, and there would have been more, had it not been for the fact that Israel was mostly victorious. All these jewish refugees were allowed to return to their homes since they belonged to the official ethnicity of the state of Israel.

They remained in Israel and yet they were refugees from Israel?

So why the israeli government does not allowed the return of those who are not involved in violence against Israel. You contradict yourself.

Comrade, historians like Benny Morris (a strongly pro-Israel historian by the way) have already made clear through their research that even before the end of the hostilities the israeli government decided no arab refugee would be allowed back in Israel (not even women and children). This is not an object of serious discussion anymore.

I honestly don't know what I can do for you anymore. This is what I gave you in detail and yet you continue to ignore the concrete data. LOOK:

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html#howman <--- LINK

"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did." <--- CLAIM

Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14 <--- SOURCED REFERENCE



http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html#howman <--- LINK

"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile." <---CLAIM

Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948 <-- SOURCED REFERENCE



http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html#howman <--- LINK


· "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country." <--- CLAIM

- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183 <-- SOURCED REFERENCE



Read them all, don't waste my time by ignoring the entire list. It's historical documentation pointing to documented statements by very credible parties to the conflict.

I've given you more than enough links to back my point of view and you just skipped on by as if your own opinion (or mine) remains the issue.

I spent that time for YOU, and you simply chose to spite me. That really pisses me off.

Let’s try to find some common ground here, Comrade. You know I’m not ajwps who never concedes any point to anyone no matter how proven it was. If someday I’m not willing to discuss in good faith, you can be sure I won’t post anymore.

Civil discourse on the subject requires you to address the data I've offered you, and some effort. I gave you this in good faith with the understanding that you would either dispute or accept it. Rather than that, you contined to claim what remained your sole opinion in contraction to this list. "What you say" remains the sole valid source in the issue. That is plain rude, my friend.

Look, everybody knows war is a big mess.Almost everything happened in Israel in 1948. Arabs voluntarily leaving their towns to escape the crossfire, arabs being told to leave their towns by arab religious and political leaders and arabs being expelled from their homes by the israeli army.

Read through the list of sourced statements I offered and understand I will indeed concede that forced eviction did occur in more than one case, although mostly as a minority exception and more often than not, with good reason.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let’s imagine I don’t blame the Israeli government not even for the arabs expelled by the israeli army, after all, it’s hard to worry with human rights when you have an enemy army trying to put a bullet in your head.

Now we're getting somewhere.

OK...that was 48...fastforward to 49... the war is over an all the displaced jews returned to their homes. Why couldn’t the members of the unofficial ethnicity of Israel do the same??? Because the israeli government decided even before the end of the hostilities that they would not be allowed back. And THIS DECISION is ethnic cleansing Comrade...whether you like it or not... if you have to leave the US for some reason and the US government doesn’t allow you to return and even bulldoze your house, they are responsible for your exile and not your original reason to leave anymore.

So the Jews who left their homes in Israel were allowed to return to their homes in Israel? That makes no sense.

The Muslims who left their homes, despite the guarantees of their safety as long as they remained peacefull, did so under the promise of victory and the destruction of the Jewish state, alone with their murder and/or removal, seizing all of their homes and seeking their destruction. It's all there in the stated sources.

I can't source the statistics for those males who left Jewish land and fought against the Jews alongside their fellow Muslims, but I'm sure it happened, and often. Actions supported by their families. This is simply Islamic tradition.

When Ben Gurion decided not to allow the arab refugees to return, he (the israeli government) became the only reason of their exile, not the crossfire or the arab leaders anymore.

And those Arabs who stayed were given full citizenship as promised. The hell with those who left. That's not apartheid, but common sense. It's also morally correct.

More than 2000 palestinians were killed trying to “infiltrate” back into Israel since the israeli government refused to let them return. And this decision is still in place. The successors of Ben Gurion in the israeli goverment continue to deny them this fundamental right.

Stop right there.

What link? Is there a documented list? Why were they sneaking across? We're they shot and killed? We're they wearing any explosive vest.

And one more question, how many are left in Palestine who actually lived in Israel at all? Maybe a several thousand. Just because they all fucked liked rabbits and left a few million decendents for Arafat doesn't mean they automatically get rights to live with the Jews their ancestors once sought to destory. They get ZERO immigration rights. Whatever they want to create for themselves, in a large space of their own, that's their problem. Some kid fresh from Palestinian style summer camp has no "fundamental right" just because their dead grandaddy once fought the Jews.

How many times have you heard Sharon saying the refugees will never be allowed back in Israel?? It’s almost unbelievible that a head of state is openly taking responsability for ethnic cleansing. You don’t have to believe in me... Sharon shamelessly takes full credit for their exile.

Downright whacky lingo.

Isreal is conducting "ethnic cleansing" of ... the million Israeli Arab Muslim citizens? Of course not. This is still about immigration restrictions into a soveriegn nation.

It seems that America is conducting "ethnic cleansing" of North Korea because we refuse to accept any NK national into our nation. We're like Serbia, right?

 

[ajwps]

AJ---the guy agrees with you post and you demand HIM to document it? Whats up with that?

You say this guy Jose agrees with me? He makes statements in this 'agreement post' of his like the following:

Jose said:

"But they (Arab countries) don’t have any moral duty to absorb the arab population expelled or not allowed to return to Palestine in 1948 by Israel, Comrade."

Jose also fails to document statements he makes purportedly relating to the Arabs who are as guilty of ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from their Islamic countries as are the Jews not allowing Arabs immigration into the Jewish State of Israel. Jose has some kind of moral equivalency that hasn't the vaguest thing to do with ETHNIC CLEANSING.

As far as anyone knows, 'ethnic cleansing' has a meaning and not Jose's opinion that Israel is somehow morally deficient for preventing any and all Arabs from immigrating into Israel. If Israel were to ethnically cleanse the Arabs from Israel, the Arabs would be lining up in front of gas chambers or being shot in masse.

To the Jewish people this phrase Jose uses with such conviction raises very deep wounds and pain of that which his brother Arabs and their allies the Nazis' used to murder millions of Jewish and Gypsy men, women and children. To ethnically cleanse (murder) the entire people from the face of the earth.

He declares that the Arab countries have no 'moral obligation' to absorb their own Arab brothers into their vast waste Arab lands. He insinuates that Israel has some sort of 'moral duty' to commit national suicide by inviting in the Arab populations of the world to decimate the Jewish people and their country.

So you say that Jose agrees with me while I stupidly asked for supporting data instead of his opinions?

Jose's opinions are like flatus, they come from his entrails and stink.

 

[dilloduck]

No sham. Leave Palestinians out of it, they are not soveriegn to Isreal, are they?



Arab societies are not democratic. Jews are not the richest class of people as a whole.



Just drawing a comparison to Arab states.



Jewish leaders didn't expell others. Read the sourced data I offered. Provide sourced data to the contrary.



They remained in Israel and yet they were refugees from Israel?



I honestly don't know what I can do for you anymore. This is what I gave you in detail and yet you continue to ignore the concrete data. LOOK:

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html#howman <--- LINK

"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did." <--- CLAIM

Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14 <--- SOURCED REFERENCE



http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html#howman <--- LINK

"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile." <---CLAIM

Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948 <-- SOURCED REFERENCE



http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html#howman <--- LINK


· "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country." <--- CLAIM

- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183 <-- SOURCED REFERENCE



Read them all, don't waste my time by ignoring the entire list. It's historical documentation pointing to documented statements by very credible parties to the conflict.

I've given you more than enough links to back my point of view and you just skipped on by as if your own opinion (or mine) remains the issue.

I spent that time for YOU, and you simply chose to spite me. That really pisses me off.



Civil discourse on the subject requires you to address the data I've offered you, and some effort. I gave you this in good faith with the understanding that you would either dispute or accept it. Rather than that, you contined to claim what remained your sole opinion in contraction to this list. "What you say" remains the sole valid source in the issue. That is plain rude, my friend.



Read through the list of sourced statements I offered and understand I will indeed concede that forced eviction did occur in more than one case, although mostly as a minority exception and more often than not, with good reason.



Now we're getting somewhere.




So the Jews who left their homes in Israel were allowed to return to their homes in Israel? That makes no sense.

The Muslims who left their homes, despite the guarantees of their safety as long as they remained peacefull, did so under the promise of victory and the destruction of the Jewish state, alone with their murder and/or removal, seizing all of their homes and seeking their destruction. It's all there in the stated sources.

I can't source the statistics for those males who left Jewish land and fought against the Jews alongside their fellow Muslims, but I'm sure it happened, and often. Actions supported by their families. This is simply Islamic tradition.



And those Arabs who stayed were given full citizenship as promised. The hell with those who left. That's not apartheid, but common sense. It's also morally correct.




Stop right there.

What link? Is there a documented list? Why were they sneaking across? We're they shot and killed? We're they wearing any explosive vest.

And one more question, how many are left in Palestine who actually lived in Israel at all? Maybe a several thousand. Just because they all fucked liked rabbits and left a few million decendents for Arafat doesn't mean they automatically get rights to live with the Jews their ancestors once sought to destory. They get ZERO immigration rights. Whatever they want to create for themselves, in a large space of their own, that's their problem. Some kid fresh from Palestinian style summer camp has no "fundamental right" just because their dead grandaddy once fought the Jews.

Downright whacky lingo.

Isreal is conducting "ethnic cleansing" of ... the million Israeli Arab Muslim citizens? Of course not. This is still about immigration restrictions into a soveriegn nation.

It seems that America is conducting "ethnic cleansing" of North Korea because we refuse to accept any NK national into our nation. We're like Serbia, right?

The jewish answer to everything--not my problem unless your Jewish.--Guess what?

 

[ajwps]

The jewish answer to everything--not my problem unless your Jewish.--Guess what?

At one time I really thought you could think....

The Jewish answer to everything is that everybody is equal. Israel has a problem with Arabs and you make Islamic terrorists the victims for wanting to have unlimited immigration into the middle of Israel in order to destroy them and their remarkable country.

Do you have a malignant tumor where your brain was once?

 

[dilloduck]

At one time I really thought you could think....

The Jewish answer to everything is that everybody is equal. Israel has a problem with the Arabs and you make Arab terrorists wanting immigration into the middle of Israel to destroy them and their remarkable country.

Do you have tumor where your brain was once?

If everyone is equal, why can't arabs immigrate ?

Profiling?

 

[ajwps]

If everyone is equal, why can't arabs immigrate ?

Profiling?

Nobody is stopping the Arabs from immigrating. As long as it isn't into Israel.

The main terrorist groups in the world are olive skinned Muslims between the age of 18 to 40 years of age. There is no way to profile them?

 

[dilloduck]

So jews have the freedom to welcome thier jewish friends into Israel but Arabs IN Israel do not have this right?

 

[Comrade]

Nobody is stopping the Arabs from immigrating. As long as it isn't into Israel.

The main terrorist groups in the world are olive skinned Muslims between the age of 18 to 40 years of age. There is no way to profile them?

Arab Muslims immigrate to Israel. Just saying...

 

[dilloduck]

If Israel wants to call itself a democracy it's fine with me---there is simply no way it can claim everyone there has equal rights.

 

[Comrade]

The jewish answer to everything--not my problem unless your Jewish.--Guess what?

Or part of a million Arab Muslim Israeli citizens. Or one of the hundreds of thousands of non-Jewish faiths besides Islam. Or one of several millions secular people of various genetic variety (albiet predominantly decended from Jews).

Kids born outside of Israel, do they get the right of return?

Speak clearly, if you don't like my paragraph dispute the facts or agree. Don't take some half-assed potshot at it. Sieze it and crush it!

 

[Comrade]

If Israel wants to call itself a democracy it's fine with me---there is simply no way it can claim everyone there has equal rights.

Once more I ask the same question. What specifically, and I really mean, specifically is the right that non-Jewish Israeli citizens lack. I ask you for the second time.

 

[Comrade]

So jews have the freedom to welcome thier jewish friends into Israel but Arabs IN Israel do not have this right?

So straight people have the freedom to marry their lovers buy gays do not have this right?


Yep. Outvoted. Democracy, baby.

 

[ajwps]

If Israel wants to call itself a democracy it's fine with me---there is simply no way it can claim everyone there has equal rights.

can you define 'democracy' for us?

 

[dilloduck]

can you define 'democracy' for us?

<<< not the one who says Israel isn't a democracy------also doesn't care if gays get married.

 

[ajwps]

Once more I ask the same question. What specifically, and I really mean, specifically is the right that non-Jewish Israeli citizens lack. I ask you for the second time.

Got him with that one...

Dilloduck seems to think that to be a real 'democracy' it becomes necessary in the definition in his particular form of democracy, must invite into itself the seeds of its own destruction.

Dill enjoys playing word games but in reality he is only playing with himself. And that is a SIN....

 

[José]

Ajpws translated:

I have a problem. I fell in love with a racist state. Its name is Israel.

I want all my friends in the US MESSAGE BOARD to accept the existence of my beloved Israel, but the problem is that Israel is a racist state that confines millions of human beings inside a concentration camp known as Gaza strip.

People who read message boards for the most part, didn’t lose their moral bearings so they won’t accept Israel, UNLESS, I can come up with a good excuse.

WAIT A MIN!!!!

I HAD AN IDEA!!!!

I’m going to link the existence of Israel to my survival and that of my jewish people. I’m going to say that Israel is the only thing that prevents the arabs from killing us all (nevermind the fact that there are arabs living in peace in Israel as we speak).

I know "God gave this land to us" and "we're God's chosen people" are all lame excuses that don't resonate well with non religious people although to be honest they are much closer to the truth. But life and death is another story. My friends don’t want me to die, they are good people, so if Israel is the only thing that keep me and my people alive they will support Israel to protect my life. Hell it ALMOST worked in South Africa. During the 80’s whites always said apartheid was the only thing that kept them alive:

AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!! THE DAY MANDELA TAKE OFFICE THE BLACKS WILL EAT US ALIVE!!

Yes, I think I found the right way to make my virtual friends support Israel. I’ll go for it...

 

[dilloduck]

Got him with that one...

Dilloduck seems to think that to be a real 'democracy' it becomes necessary in the definition in his particular form of democracy, must invite into itself the seeds of its own destruction.

Dill enjoys playing word games but in reality he is only playing with himself. And that is a SIN....

All gentiles are sinners in your eyes AJ

Arabs in Israel cannot invite fellow arabs to immigrate !

specific?