Where did anti-semitism originate from?

[Comrade]

Jose, it's all good. In the end, everything here boils down to just plain old words on a screen, and we're all wise enough to not take anything like that too too seriously.

None of us are running for office, so it's not as if it's a popularity contest that really matters, after all is said and done.

Anyway, I'll answer your questions.

Would you be willing to consider South Africa under apartheid a democracy?

Nope.

This was the South African EQUIVALENT of the ethnic cleansing of 1948.

Israel 1948: hundreds of thousands of arabs are expelled or not allowed to return to Israel, losing their right to reside in their places of origin and be citizens of this state.

Yes, I've heard several versions of the 1948 war, but first you have to admit to me, that this particular wording of the story you present is one you repeat thematically from Arab propaganda. You continue to present the issue from one perspective only, limited to the same arguments anyone can make having browsed a few leftist anti-zionist websites. Therein is nothing more to offer beyond that single view from a severely distorted context. And indeed, there is certainly Israeli propaganda as well, I don't deny that. You can certainly see for yourself the truth is limited in each venue, and that the picture of the whole conflict is not easily attributed to either viewpoint.

Myself, I believe Arab Muslims and their governments in the region vehemently opposed the settlement of Jewish people into their lands from the very beginning. And I also realize the Jewish settlers realized from the beginning that their freedom was at risk from these same governments which declared open war on the Judaic people. There was in fact no possible reason for the Jewish settlers, abandoned by UK forces and left to the devices of a vast majority of Islamic people, to feel safe whatsoever.

Islam has a long and solid history of murdering and oppressing Jews, well documented and prothelized since the time of Mohammed himself.

Come 1948, the Arab legion set about the time honored tradition of Jewish massacre via a declaration set forth herein: (many sources I can link):

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/1948_War.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would "fight for every inch of their country."3 Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews.4

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back.5 In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.

The 1948 war itself was brought on by Arab hostility vis-a-vis Jewish settlement. There is no reason to believe otherwise. Historical records speak the truth.

The whole idea behind the ethnic cleansing of 1948 was to deny citizenship to arabs and LEAVE JEWS AS THE MAJORITY IN ISRAEL.

Don't ignore the typical behavior of every Arab state since the dawn of Islam with respect to the big picture. Note the leftist propaganda is easily recognized based upon their unwillingness to actually reference the words and actions of the Arab states who fought in that war in the same period, because the moment you stop operating as if Israel exists in a vacuum you have to explain the actions with respect to what was indeed reprehensible behavior on the part of Israels enemies. In that aspect, you disregard the whole picture.

If you read Chomsky you'll notice the same technique. You'll notice in his work the same total lack of any mention of the actions of any but that one single power as the antagonist (Israel) which he and the left continuously condemns. The enemy of the antagonist (ie. Arab states) simply skips off scott free, without so much as a nod of recognition from this literature. That's the trap you have fallen into, good sir.

Well, Comrade, unfortunately for the racist government of South Africa, they didn’t have enough time to implement their policy of ethnic cleansing. As internal support for apartheid began to waver and international opposition began to grow in the 80’s, the South African government abandoned its intention to relocate the entire black population to the so called “independent” Black States. What happened then is well known. That racist state was peacefully dismantled and replaced by a state of citizens.

The native Africans didn't actually present a threat against the Whites in South Africa. Why bother at all with ethnic cleansing when they never actually had equal rights to begin with? Nobody in South Africa pretended it was otherwise. My point here is this is not an adequate comparison.

In Isreal proper, Arab Muslims are most certainly not subject to any of the restaints to a South African black under apartheid could expect. They are, in fact, free and equal citizens, by law. That's a HUGE difference.

BOTH SOUTH AFRICA AND ISRAEL EXPELLED BLACKS AND ARABS TO MANUFACTURE A WHITE/JEW MAJORITY AND CREATE A SHAM DEMOCRACY.

You can’t have both ways, Comrade, either Israel is an apartheid state or South Africa was a democracy in the making.

This is what bothers me:

You don't discuss the state of affairs among those "expelled" as Arab Muslims in that period. And the story about how they failed to create among themselves a democracy, is left to the ether.

And those Jews who were similarly forced from their own homes (and not murdered outright), be that 2,000 years or 2 days before the 1948 war, their own right to return is no issue whatsoever, despite the strength of their own claims.

No leftist in these kind of threads will ever want to discuss the comparative treatment between Arab Muslims in Israel with Non-Muslims in the rest of the Middle East. No Jew, Christian, or other non-Muslim is at all free within these totalitarian states. Among these Arab states, the continuing tirade has been to seek the destruction of the one free state in the entire Middle East.

You seem to just look the other way and, almost robotically, blame Israel for the root problem in the entire region of millions.

Chomsky's strategy was to make the conflict one dimensional.

You've obviously taken to heart this propaganda, and won't even consider the nature of those who oppose Jews in the Middle East in order to begin to explain the nature of the conflict in any meaningfull sense.

Israel's interaction with those outside it's borders are painted as simply victims, never antagonists, via Chomsky literature.

Israel's government, despite the equal rights granted to citizen non-Jews, is somehow not a "real democracy", under this microscope. And yet the totalitarian leadership of every one of it's neighbors, including the worste of all, the Palestinian Authority, is a non-issue to you. You've already been subect to and have become a proponent of this most biased of all propaganda.

The nature of the rest of the middle east is especially important in this thread but as it stands only you and your affiliats continue to demand the focus upon Israel exclusively, without any kind of regard for its neighbors.

You don't expect me to believe that any issue, be it the destruction of the wall or the right to return, is not linked to the intentions of those who demand it, ie. the enemies of that state.

The motivations of those you speak for, are especially suspect. YOU are suspect.

Israel does not exist in a vacuum. On the contrary, it simmers within a pressure cooker among other aggresive states and ideologies.

Under that balance of power there are certain alternatives I can expect upon its' dismantling. Upon such an altertanative, I find nothing resembling the Jeffersonian qualitiy you claim to defend.

You ask me to take a side and for what it's worth, I side with Democracy and Liberal ideals. I conclude that you side with the PLO because that's their own propaganda you speak of. I despise this.

 

[ajwps]

Comrade,

You and Dillo know exactly WHO I had in mind when I wrote that satire. And it was not you. LOL

You are a NICE guy. I respect you enough to not humiliate you in front of everybody, because you, at least, discuss the issues IN GOOD FAITH, which is more than I can say about HIM. LOL

OK, after this brief kumbaya moment, let’s join the fray again. : )

Shahid José

Very subtle of you to notice the invisible HIM. You discuss issues in the FAITH of well funded Muslim propaganda sites. Your humility and cunning are kind of refreshing. Your posts give everyone a little chance to get a good laugh at your joking Arabist positions.

Have you ever thought about working for the comedy team called HAMAS?

 

[José]

originally posted by Comrade
Yes, I've heard several versions of the 1948 war, but first you have to admit to me, that this particular wording of the story you present is one you repeat thematically from Arab propaganda.

Myself, I believe Arab Muslims and their governments in the region vehemently opposed the settlement of Jewish people into their lands from the very beginning. And I also realize the Jewish settlers realized from the beginning that their freedom was at risk from these same governments which declared open war on the Judaic people.

The 1948 war itself was brought on by Arab hostility vis-a-vis Jewish settlement.

Note the leftist propaganda is easily recognized based upon their unwillingness to actually reference the words and actions of the Arab states who fought in that war in the same period, because the moment you stop operating as if Israel exists in a vacuum you have to explain the actions with respect to what was indeed reprehensible behavior on the part of Israels enemies. In that aspect, you disregard the whole picture.

The enemy of the antagonist (ie. Arab states) simply skips off scott free, without so much as a nod of recognition from this literature.

I gather you consider the arab population of Palestine as a threat to the jewish population... is that right?

Well, in 1948 you had several parties involved in the fighting, you have the invading arab armies, you had a minority of native palestinians who heped them out and you had the great majority of peaceful palestinians like children, women, old people and men who did not fight and just stayed at home waiting for the hostilities to end or just fled the combat zone. Let’s analyze one by one, let’s not lump them all together.

The arab invading armies were fought by the israeli army and the POWs were sent back to their countries of origin. I have no problem with that.

The palestinian arabs who joined the fight and particularly those who commited atrocities should be jailed and serve time in Israel. I have no problem with that either.

But now things start to become more complicated.

Israel should have defeated those arab armies (as it did) and jailed all palestinians who commited acts of violence against jews, but not expell or deny the right to return to completely harmless arab families who had never done anything other than taking care of their olive trees. The responsability for a crime is always individual Comrade... Races don’t commit crimes, people do.

If I commit a crime, society must punish me but please, dont punish my sister, my parents, the people who live in my neighborhood, city, state, country. Don’t punish my race. Punish just me.

Individual responsability for crimes is one of the things that separates civilization from the stone age.

Comrade , if you stop and think for a moment you will see the absurdity of punishing an entire race for the crimes of some of their members.

If you call 700.000 palestinian arabs “enemies of Israel” you’ll end up being forced to say that even babies, 5 year old boys and 70, 80 year old ladies represent a danger to Israel... in other words, you’ll be dragged into an absurd position....

At the end of the war you had two groups of war refugees: jewish and arab families. The members of the oficial ethnicity of the state of Israel were allowed to return to their homes. The members of the “unofficial” ethnicity (arabs) were not given the same permission.

The criterion for the right of return of the war refugees was their ethnicity.

If this is not ethnic cleansing, than ethnic cleansing means nothing at all.

What happened in Israel in 1948, was ethnic cleansing carried out through a mixture of forced displacement and denial of the right of return.

The South African government expelled millions of completely harmless african families from their places of origin in the 60’s and 70’s.

The Israeli government expelled or didn't allow the return of hundreds of thousands of completely harmless arab families from their places of origin in 48.

THEY DID THIS BECAUSE THEY ARE TWO ETHNIC SUPREMACIST STATES.

THEY DID THIS BECAUSE THE SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT WANTED A SOUTH AFRICA WITH WHITES AND TOKEN BLACKS JUST LIKE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WANTS AN ISRAEL WITH JEWS AND TOKEN ARABS.

 

[José]

This is why Israel can’t be considered a democracy, Comrade.

Democracy means literally, rule by the people, directly or indirectly. You can’t have rule by the people, when 40% of the people is excluded.

Israel contradicts the very notion of democracy, Comrade.

Democracy based on ethnic hierarchy is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

South Africa were not willing to consider blacks as citizens of the state, just like Israel is not willing to consider the arab population of Palestine citizens of Israel. Being ethnic supremacist states, they are supposed to behave like that.

ISRAEL HAD THE RIGHT TO EXPELL THE INVADING ARMIES AND ARREST PALESTINIANS WHO TOOK UP ARMS, BUT IT DIDN’T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO EXPELL OR NOT ALLOW THE RETURN OF PEOPLE WHO HAD NOT ENGAGED IN ANY VIOLENT ACTIVITY.

THIS PRECLUDES ISRAEL FROM BEING CONSIDERED A DEMOCRACY.

Most africans expelled from South Africa under apartheid were completely harmless people.

Most arabs expelled from Israel were completely harmless people.

Either both countries are democracies or racial dictatorships.

Pick one, Comrade. Logic tells us you can’t have both.

 

[José]

originally posted by Comrade
And those Jews who were similarly forced from their own homes (and not murdered outright), be that 2,000 years or 2 days before the 1948 war, their own right to return is no issue whatsoever, despite the strength of their own claims.

You cite the ethnic cleansing of the jewish communities in the arab countries, ajwps has also raised this subject several times and I can only say I fully agree with both of you. The arab governments are responsible for the ethnic cleansing of their own jewish population.

The official policy of Zionism was always to encourage the immigration of jews, so it’s much easier to deny the ethnic cleansing of the jews in the arab countries than that of arabs in Israel...

But the reality check says:

Many of the jews who fled Egypt and Syria had no economic reasons to do so...there were quite rich families and they left those countries because of the climate of intolerance and politically motivated trials....

Arab governments had the sacred duty to protect them from harassment and not harass them themselves...

What happened in Egypt, Syria etc...was clearly ethnic cleansing.

This is one of the darkest pages in the history of the arab world. The arab people should be ashamed of their leaders... they should reflect and realise that their countries became culturally poorer with the expultion of the jewish community. The ethnic diversity of Egypt and Syria should be considered as treasures by their population.

I also think the arab governments should make every effort to bring back those refugees. They should promise them they will have their business reopen and will be able to resume their lives. I doubt any of them will accept. But this is not only about refugees returning, this is about arab countries recognizing their fault, recognizing that their expulsion was a shameful act of brutality. The arab governments should beg them to return...If none of the jewish refugees and their children accept the offer they should be compensated for their material losses. If arab governments had any shame left, they would have done this a long time ago.

They have the obligation to allow those who want to return to do so and compensate those who don’t.

But they don’t have any moral duty to absorb the arab population expelled or not allowed to return to Palestine in 1948 by Israel, Comrade.

Don’t act like the lawyer who represents a rapist and says to the defence team:

“People, the case is weak. My client did rape that girl, so our best strategy will be to attempt to shift the blame. Let’s accuse the girl of wearing sexy
clothes, let’s blame the guys who were close to the scene and did nothing, let’s blame her parents who did not drive her home.

This is our only hope to defend our client, because as I said the case is EXTREMELY weak.”

Ajwps (Israel’s lawyer):

“People, the case is weak. My client, Israel did commit ethnic cleansing in 48, so our best strategy will be to attempt to shift the blame. Let’s accuse the victim, the palestinian people, let’s blame the arab countries who did not absorb them, let’s blame the UN who run the refugee camps.

This is our only hope of succesfully defend Israel, because as I said the case is EXTREMELY weak.”

Just look who's REALLY using AL-TAQUIYYA (lying and deceptions for Allah) ; )

Don’t ask the arab countries to correct a crime they didn’t commit, Comrade. ONLY THE ONES THEY DID.

Remember, more than two thousand years ago, a very intelligent greek taught us the following lesson (adapted):

“NEVER JUSTIFY A BAD BEHAVIOUR WITH ANOTHER BAD BEHAVIOUR BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT”.

You must never forget these words of wisdom by this most famous son of Athens, Comrade.

Don’t use the ethnic cleasing of the jewish population of the Middle East as a pretext to justify the ethnic cleansing of the arab population of Palestine.

 

[ajwps]

You cite the ethnic cleansing of the jewish communities in the arab countries, ajwps has also raised this subject several times and I can only say I fully agree with both of you. The arab governments are responsible for the ethnic cleansing of their own jewish population.

The official policy of Zionism was always to encourage the immigration of jews, so it’s much easier to deny the ethnic cleansing of the jews in the arab countries than that of arabs in Israel...

But the reality check says:

Many of the jews who fled Egypt and Syria had no economic reasons to do so...there were quite rich families and they left those countries because of the climate of intolerance and politically motivated trials.... Arab governments had the sacred duty to protect them from harassment and not harass them themselves... What happened in Egypt, Syria etc...was clearly ethnic cleansing. This is one of the darkest pages in the history of the arab world. The arab people should be ashamed of their leaders... they should reflect and realise that their countries became culturally poorer with the expultion of the jewish community. The ethnic diversity of Egypt and Syria should be considered as treasures by their population. I also think the arab governments should make every effort to bring back those refugees. They should promise them they will have their business reopen and will be able to resume their lives. I doubt any of them will accept. But this is not only about refugees returning, this is about arab countries recognizing their fault, recognizing that their expulsion was a shameful act of brutality. The arab governments should beg them to return...If none of the jewish refugees and their children accept the offer they should be compensated for their material losses. If arab governments had any shame left, they would have done this a long time ago. They have the obligation to allow those who want to return to do so and compensate those who don’t. But they don’t have any moral duty to absorb the arab population expelled or not allowed to return to Palestine in 1948 by Israel, Comrade. Don’t act like the lawyer who represents a rapist and says to the defence team: “People, the case is weak. My client did rape that girl, so our best strategy will be to attempt to shift the blame. Let’s accuse the girl of wearing sexy clothes, let’s blame the guys who were close to the scene and did nothing, let’s blame her parents who did not drive her home. This is our only hope to defend our client, because as I said the case is EXTREMELY weak.” Ajwps (Israel’s lawyer):

“People, the case is weak. My client, Israel did commit ethnic cleansing in 48, so our best strategy will be to attempt to shift the blame. Let’s accuse the victim, the palestinian people, let’s blame the arab countries who did not absorb them, let’s blame the UN who run the refugee camps. This is our only hope of succesfully defend Israel, because as I said the case is EXTREMELY weak.” Just look who's REALLY using AL-TAQUIYYA (lying and deceptions for Allah) don’t ask the arab countries to correct a crime they didn’t commit, Comrade. ONLY THE ONES THEY DID. Remember, more than two thousand years ago, a very intelligent greek taught us the following lesson (adapted):
“NEVER JUSTIFY A BAD BEHAVIOUR WITH ANOTHER BAD BEHAVIOUR BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT”. You must never forget these words of wisdom by this most famous son of Athens, Comrade. Don’t use the ethnic cleasing of the jewish population of the Middle East as a pretext to justify the ethnic cleansing of the arab population of Palestine.

All the above is pure MYTH and simply stating fiction as fact without being able to cite or prove these statements is nothing but propaganda for that is the nature of creating fabrications. This technique is not uncommon among primitive peoples who do not require proofs of their statements.

Allow me to give direct Qur'an quotes which can be checked out and statements made by reference.

MYTH

Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs.”

FACT

While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam." (Palestinian Media Watch, http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/index.asp (March 15, 2000)

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.(Bat Ye'or,The Dhimmi, (NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 43-44.)

The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).

Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. In the ninth century, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.(Bat Ye'or, pp. 185-86, 191, 194)

Some Muslim thoughts on Jihad and Islam

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/anwarshaikh/jacp1.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/9/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/muslimfreethinkers/why_i_am_not_a_muslim.htm

“When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.” (Quran47.4).

"And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God [i.e. moshrekin.] wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful."(Quran 9:5)

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given and believe not in God, or the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden..."( Quran. 9:29)

Jose, if you want to demonize the Jewish people and Israel, you must quote reliable and unbiased sources instead of just repeating the lies of the Immams and Arafat.

 

[ajwps]

Jose and Dill the following post is the reality of the Jews and the Muslim worlds.

Yemen's treatment of its Jews varied little with the passage of time, which can be seen in the following description made by the German explorer Hans Helfritz in the 1930s:

"The Southern Arabians regard the Jews as people of a lower grade, and despise them utterly. Accordingly, the Jew has very limited privileges and is subject to strict regulations. Evidently there is a desire to prevent him from climbing upwards. An indication of the inferiority of his position is in the fact that he is not allowed to ride a camel or a mule, but has to rely on donkeys for his transport. Further, he is not permitted to carry arms or to serve in the army; on the other hand he is required to pay a high sum to the Imam, who then condescends to see to his protection. He is called upon to perform the most servile tasks, and though he is allowed to trade in the Arab city [the Arab section of San'a], he may never settle among Mohammedans.

"The houses in the ghetto, the Ka'a el-Jahud (City of the Jews), may only have two floors, and the synagogues are allowed in no wise to differ from the ordinary living houses. Consequently the streets in the ghetto, in contrast to those in the Arab city, make a monotonous and unattractive impression.... 'The Jews must pay tribute,' a distinguished Saidi told me, 'in order that they may not forget their racial origin. It is also a reminder to them of the Prophet's tolerance and benevolence.' ...The Imam is not willing to allow his Jews to leave the country; nor may they establish any communications with their compatriots in Palestine, or with the Zionist Movement; nor may they receive teachers or propagandists from abroad. Many of them have escaped over the frontier; in such cases their whole property has been confiscated by the Imam." (Hans Helfritz, Land Without Shade, transl. Kenneth Kirkness, New York, Robert M. McBride and Co., 1936, pgs. 252 - 254)

This predicament was repeated throughout the Mohammedan world. A late nineteenth century European traveler wrote the following similar observations about North Africa:

"It has lasted long enough before the Jews enjoyed in those countries [i.e., Morocco and Tunisia] an existence worthy of human dignity.... The oppression to which the latter [the Jews] are exposed, even to this day, are almost incredible... they had to live in a certain quarter, and were not allowed to appear in the streets after sunset... If it was a dark night, they were not allowed to carry a lantern like the Moors and Turks, but a candle, which the wind extinguished every minute. They were neither allowed to ride on horseback nor on a mule, and even to ride on a donkey was forbidden them except outside the town; they had then to dismount at the gates, and walk in the middle of the street, so as not to be in the way of Arabs. If they had to pass the 'Kasba', they had first to fall on their knees as a sign of submission, and then to walk on with lowered head; before coming to a mosque they were obliged to take the slippers off their feet, and had to pass the holy edifice without looking at it.... It was worse even in their intercourse with Mussulmans; if one of these fancied himself insulted by a Jew, he stabbed him at once, and had only to pay a fine to the state, by way of punishment.... The Prime Minister down to the common soldier, took every opportunity to oppress and rob the Jews. They need only hear that this one or the other possessed great wealth to be after him at once for the purpose of confiscating his fortune for the paltriest of reasons, or to extort as many thousand piastres as they thought he was worth." (Chevalier de Hesse - Wartegg, Tunis: The Land and People, new edition, London 1899, pgs 115 -128. Quoted in Norman A. Stillman, The Jews in Arab Lands, Philadelphia, Jewish Publication Society, 1979, pgs. 416 - 417, 420)

The late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries witnessed the importation of such Western ideas as socialism, capitalism, secularism, and the idea of the modern nation state into what was basically an agrarian, religiously oriented, clan-based and feudal society. The concomitant rise of Zionism among the despised Jews served to further aggravate the dislocation felt in much of the Arab-Islamic world and served as a lightning rod to galvanize the Muslim masses. Vicious attacks were launched against all Jews, including those of non- or even anti-Zionist feeling. The ferocious Hebron pogrom of 1929, in which the mostly Orthodox community was slaughtered, to a man, accompanied by savage mutilations of both the living and the dead, was an extreme example of the new Arab behavior.

The rise of Italian fascism and German National Socialism was greeted with applause by many Arab intellectuals, who felt an acute kinship with both ideologies for their anti-British and anti-Semitic elements. Copies of both the Czarist-era forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf were issued in numerous Arabic language editions. Hajj Amin Al-Husseini, the British-appointed grand mufti of Jerusalem, became a prominent Muslim activist on behalf of the Axis cause. After fleeing the Middle East for Berlin, he broadcast rabidly anti-Semitic propaganda for the Nazis' Arabic radio service as well as organizing Bosnian Muslim SS units for active use on the battlefront. Future Egyptian president Anwar Al-Sadat was a strong admirer of Hitler and kept a portrait of the Fuhrer in his private office as late as the early fifties. The Egyptian "Green Shirts" attempted to emulate their radical European counterparts by instituting an economic boycott of Jewish businesses and committing random bombings of private homes of wealthy Jews. In 1941 Yunis Al-Sabawi, the head of Iraq's fascist influenced militias, ordered all Jews to remain in their homes in preparation for a secret massacre planned to occur during the two days of Shavuot. While Sabawi was deported to the Iranian border and hence unable to follow through with his project, a more or less spontaneous mass slaughter did take place in Baghdad under the watchful eyes of the British army.

The post-World War II period witnessed the end of the millennia-old history of Jewish life in the Near East. Across this huge area, dictators arose who emphasized the purely Arab character of their countries, thus automatically excluding the Jews from the nation-building process. The growth of Zionism and the subsequent battle for Palestine were used to stress the alien quality and the "subversiveness" of the Israelite population. The persecution, despoliation and expulsion of whole communities proceeded apace, ending only with the beggaring and ejection of the Jews of Libya following the Qaddafi coup of 1969.

Yet, when the issue of Middle Eastern refugees is discussed, the group in question is always Arab.

The implications of this one-sided emphasis for the Israel-Arab problem have been profound. While Arabs and their supporters loudly declaim the unconditional demand that Israel open its doors to a flood of emigrants and their descendents, no Muslim country is expected to do the same for Jews. Indeed, in many instances, the Jewish presence in certain areas antedates that of both Arabs (North Africa) and Islam (Yemen) by several thousand years; yet there is no large-scale effort to make restitution to these shattered communities.

A visit to any library will reveal a large amount of works devoted to the dilemma of the Arab runaways. In fact a whole "Palestine industry" has arisen dedicated to the articulation of this group's point of view, while systematically ignoring that of the Jews. The Israeli government, rather than making a case for its own victimized citizens and their progeny, simply allows the black silence to engulf the memory of the destroyed Levantine communities of the world's oldest Diaspora.

 

[José]

All the above is pure MYTH and simply stating fiction as fact without being able to cite or prove these statements is nothing but propaganda for that is the nature of creating fabrications.

All the above is pure myth, propaganda and fabrications? Then you just denied that a single jew was expelled from arab countries having his properties conficated in the 40’s and 50’s.

I’M ALWAYS AMAZED BY AJWPS!!!!!! I just posted a message lambasting the arab countries because of the way they treated their jewish communities when the jewish state was created, and then he replies to an imaginary post of mine, where I denied this treatement ever happened.

Most probably he didn’t even bother to read my post... He just labelled me a muslim and as such, I must surely have denied in my post that any mistreatment has ever been commited against jews in muslim countries.

That’s why everybody here complains that he doesn’t discuss the issues IN GOOD FAITH.

More good old AL-TAQUIYYA oozing out of him : )

 

[ajwps]

All the above is pure myth, propaganda and fabrications? Then you just denied that a single jew was expelled from arab countries having his properties conficated in the 40’s and 50’s.

I’M ALWAYS AMAZED BY AJWPS!!!!!! I just posted a message lambasting the arab countries because of the way they treated their jewish communities when the jewish state was created, and then he replies to an imaginary post of mine, where I denied this treatement ever happened.

Most probably he didn’t even bother to read my post... He just labelled me a muslim and as such, I must surely have denied in my post that any mistreatment has ever been commited against jews in muslim countries.

That’s why everybody here complains that he doesn’t discuss the issues IN GOOD FAITH.

More good old AL-TAQUIYYA oozing out of him : )

Jose I simply said that all you posted is MYTH because YOU HAVEN'T DOCUMENTED ANYTHING. When you discuss issues in good faith, document your sometimes outrageous statements instead of unsupported opinions. You might think everyone believes that the Jews in the Arab countries were killed or expelled but you offer nothing to validate these statements.

Your word that you are not a Muslim is only as good as your posts. UNPROVEN....

 

[dilloduck]

AJ---the guy agrees with you post and you demand HIM to document it? Whats up with that?

 

[José]

LOL dilo : )

 

[Comrade]

I gather you consider the arab population of Palestine as a threat to the jewish population... is that right?

No, just their leadership and value system.

Well, in 1948 you had several parties involved in the fighting, you have the invading arab armies, you had a minority of native palestinians who heped them out and you had the great majority of peaceful palestinians like children, women, old people and men who did not fight and just stayed at home waiting for the hostilities to end or just fled the combat zone. Let’s analyze one by one, let’s not lump them all together.

Most fled willingly. Those that remained and acted peacefull became Israeli citizens post 1948.

The arab invading armies were fought by the israeli army and the POWs were sent back to their countries of origin. I have no problem with that.

The palestinian arabs who joined the fight and particularly those who commited atrocities should be jailed and serve time in Israel. I have no problem with that either.

But now things start to become more complicated.

Israel should have defeated those arab armies (as it did) and jailed all palestinians who commited acts of violence against jews, but not expell or deny the right to return to completely harmless arab families who had never done anything other than taking care of their olive trees. The responsability for a crime is always individual Comrade... Races don’t commit crimes, people do.

Olive tree farmers became citizens.

If I commit a crime, society must punish me but please, dont punish my sister, my parents, the people who live in my neighborhood, city, state, country. Don’t punish my race. Punish just me.

Individual responsability for crimes is one of the things that separates civilization from the stone age.

Comrade , if you stop and think for a moment you will see the absurdity of punishing an entire race for the crimes of some of their members.

Arabs remaining behind after 1948 were not punished, they were made citizens.

If you call 700.000 palestinian arabs “enemies of Israel” you’ll end up being forced to say that even babies, 5 year old boys and 70, 80 year old ladies represent a danger to Israel... in other words, you’ll be dragged into an absurd position....

No single Palestinian is an enemy, only those which persist in violence against the citizens of Israel, Arab or Jew or otherwise.

At the end of the war you had two groups of war refugees: jewish and arab families. The members of the official ethnicity of the state of Israel were allowed to return to their homes. The members of the “unofficial” ethnicity (arabs) were not given the same permission.

No, those Jews escaping the Arab onslaught in 1948 were certainly not allowed to return to their homes outside the new state of Israel. They either made it to the border, leaving all behind, or were slaughtered. There are almost ZERO Jews remaining in the neighboring states around Israel.

The criterion for the right of return of the war refugees was their ethnicity.

If this is not ethnic cleansing, than ethnic cleansing means nothing at all.

What happened in Israel in 1948, was ethnic cleansing carried out through a mixture of forced displacement and denial of the right of return.

Nobody returned, nobody.

The South African government expelled millions of completely harmless african families from their places of origin in the 60’s and 70’s.

The Israeli government expelled or didn't allow the return of hundreds of thousands of completely harmless arab families from their places of origin in 48.

THEY DID THIS BECAUSE THEY ARE TWO ETHNIC SUPREMACIST STATES.

THEY DID THIS BECAUSE THE SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT WANTED A SOUTH AFRICA WITH WHITES AND TOKEN BLACKS JUST LIKE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WANTS AN ISRAEL WITH JEWS AND TOKEN ARABS.

Arabs Israelis have an equal vote and are endowed with full civil rights. Pre-apartheid South African blacks never were.

 

[Comrade]

This is why Israel can’t be considered a democracy, Comrade.

Democracy means literally, rule by the people, directly or indirectly. You can’t have rule by the people, when 40% of the people is excluded.

Israel contradicts the very notion of democracy, Comrade.

Democracy based on ethnic hierarchy is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

South Africa were not willing to consider blacks as citizens of the state, just like Israel is not willing to consider the arab population of Palestine citizens of Israel. Being ethnic supremacist states, they are supposed to behave like that.

The Israeli government has no sovereignty over the Palestianians. In fact, their own chosen authority is the same oppressive and totalitarian state all Arab Muslims always default to. That's the way they wanted it, and the UN approved. They chose to defer to Arafat and structure their society on violent, lawless behavior. So be it. They've got their own structure of governance and have no business voting for another soveriegn state, which simply puts their own to shame.

This is nothing like South Africa.

ISRAEL HAD THE RIGHT TO EXPELL THE INVADING ARMIES AND ARREST PALESTINIANS WHO TOOK UP ARMS, BUT IT DIDN’T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO EXPELL OR NOT ALLOW THE RETURN OF PEOPLE WHO HAD NOT ENGAGED IN ANY VIOLENT ACTIVITY.

They were not expelled. Here is a good link for your edification on the subject:

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html#howman

· THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:

· "Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

"We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."

- David Ben-Gurion, in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948, moments before the 6 surrounding Arab armies, trained and armed by the British, invaded the day-old Jewish microstate, with the stated goal of extermination.


· "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".
- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976


· "The first group of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere. . . . At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."
- Ash Shalab (Jaffa newspaper), January 30, 1948


· "The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."
- London Times, May 5, 1948


· "The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948


· "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948



· "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


· "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183


· "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


· The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


· I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


· The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949


· We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


· The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


· Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


· "The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954


· "The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."
- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948


· "The Arab exodus from other villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews"
- Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953


· "[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949


· "Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa.""
- Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz


· "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did."
- Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14


· "the military and civil authorities and the Jewish representative expressed their profound regret at this grave decision [to evacuate]. The [Jewish] Mayor of Haifa made a passionate appeal to the delegation to reconsider its decision"
- The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


· "...our city flourished and developed for the good of both Jewish and Arab residents ... Do not destroy your homes with your own hands; do not bring tragedy upon yourselves by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens. By moving out you will be overtaken by poverty and humiliation. But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace, for you and your families."
The Haifa Workers' Council bulletin, 28 April 1948


· "...the Jewish hagana asked (using loudspeakers) Arabs to remain at their homes but the most of the Arab population followed their leaders who asked them to leave the country."
The TIMES of London, reporting events of 22.4.48


· " The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs.
...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families."
- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948


· "Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387


· "Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..."
- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war [note: same person as above]


· "As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."
- bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957


· One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.
Commentary Magazine -- January 2000

Note all these statements are specific and attributed to specific sources. You'd do well to review the whole list and understand exactly why I dispute your opinion on the matter.

 

[dilloduck]

No, just their leadership and value system.



Most fled willingly. Those that remained and acted peacefull became Israeli citizens post 1948.



Olive tree farmers became citizens.



Arabs remaining behind after 1948 were not punished, they were made citizens.



No single Palestinian is an enemy, only those which persist in violence against the citizens of Israel, Arab or Jew or otherwise.



No, those Jews escaping the Arab onslaught in 1948 were certainly not allowed to return to their homes outside the new state of Israel. They either made it to the border, leaving all behind, or were slaughtered. There are almost ZERO Jews remaining in the neighboring states around Israel.



Nobody returned, nobody.



Arabs Israelis have an equal vote and are endowed with full civil rights. Pre-apartheid South African blacks never were.

They are token Arabs who will never have a chance at becoming a powerful force in Israeli govt because the people who would support them are not allowed into the country ! How about a rigged democracy?

 

[Comrade]

You cite the ethnic cleansing of the jewish communities in the arab countries, ajwps has also raised this subject several times and I can only say I fully agree with both of you. The arab governments are responsible for the ethnic cleansing of their own jewish population.

The official policy of Zionism was always to encourage the immigration of jews, so it’s much easier to deny the ethnic cleansing of the jews in the arab countries than that of arabs in Israel...

Huh? If there are no more than a few dozen Jews left in any single Arab state today, and almost one million free and protected Israeli Muslims in Isreal, Israel is more guilty of ethnic cleanising? Truly bizzare.

Many of the jews who fled Egypt and Syria had no economic reasons to do so...there were quite rich families and they left those countries because of the climate of intolerance and politically motivated trials....

The ones which escaped the ovens only a few years ago were rich? Is this the thing about Jews always being rich?

What happened in Egypt, Syria etc...was clearly ethnic cleansing.

This is one of the darkest pages in the history of the arab world. The arab people should be ashamed of their leaders... they should reflect and realise that their countries became culturally poorer with the expultion of the jewish community. The ethnic diversity of Egypt and Syria should be considered as treasures by their population.

Muslims don't treasure religious diversity like us Westerners. Their prophet Mohammad was reknown for murdering and enslaving Jews. This continues to be a religious tradition in Islam.

I also think the arab governments should make every effort to bring back those refugees. They should promise them they will have their business reopen and will be able to resume their lives. I doubt any of them will accept.

No Shit!

But this is not only about refugees returning, this is about arab countries recognizing their fault, recognizing that their expulsion was a shameful act of brutality. The arab governments should beg them to return...If none of the jewish refugees and their children accept the offer they should be compensated for their material losses. If arab governments had any shame left, they would have done this a long time ago.

This is just silly. Islamic states will probably laugh at the mere suggestion.

They have the obligation to allow those who want to return to do so and compensate those who don’t.

But they don’t have any moral duty to absorb the arab population expelled or not allowed to return to Palestine in 1948 by Israel, Comrade.

Even though they promised them victory if they left their homes in pre-1948 Israel. And then lost the war. And then left them out to dry. And then warred against them in Jordan and then Lebanon when they settled there. Whatever.

Don’t act like the lawyer who represents a rapist and says to the defence team:

“People, the case is weak. My client did rape that girl, so our best strategy will be to attempt to shift the blame. Let’s accuse the girl of wearing sexy
clothes, let’s blame the guys who were close to the scene and did nothing, let’s blame her parents who did not drive her home.

This is our only hope to defend our client, because as I said the case is EXTREMELY weak.”
Ajwps (Israel’s lawyer):

“People, the case is weak. My client, Israel did commit ethnic cleansing in 48, so our best strategy will be to attempt to shift the blame. Let’s accuse the victim, the palestinian people, let’s blame the arab countries who did not absorb them, let’s blame the UN who run the refugee camps.

This is our only hope of succesfully defend Israel, because as I said the case is EXTREMELY weak.”

Just look who's REALLY using AL-TAQUIYYA (lying and deceptions for Allah) ; )

It's not about blame or rape, it's about history and war.

Don’t ask the arab countries to correct a crime they didn’t commit, Comrade. ONLY THE ONES THEY DID.

What crime? We're speaking of war and history, and crime has nothing to do with this. Arab states know nothing of liberal democracy, and conflict with Western style government is simply part of their nature.

Remember, more than two thousand years ago, a very intelligent greek taught us the following lesson (adapted):

“NEVER JUSTIFY A BAD BEHAVIOUR WITH ANOTHER BAD BEHAVIOUR BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT”.

You must never forget these words of wisdom by this most famous son of Athens, Comrade.

Sounds good but it's got nothing to do with Israel, who treats their citizens with much more respect than any Arab state ever did.

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."

General George S. Patton

Don’t use the ethnic cleasing of the jewish population of the Middle East as a pretext to justify the ethnic cleansing of the arab population of Palestine.

But if you read the facts from my last post, I don't need to justify any ethic cleansing on the part of Israel. It's simply not happening in Israel today, nor did it happen on any material scale in the past.

Arab Muslims were less than 8% in 1948 and now 15% of the Israeli population today. Jews are now less of a majority than they have ever been, and continue to dwindle as a whole. And like America, those Jews are now less religious and more secular than ever before.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

Arab states are almost 100% Muslim. All still living under dictatorship and more violent now than in the last few centuries.

Given the nature of the region and our own involvement at the hands of Muslim extremists, you have to choose a side on the issues.

You don't get the luxury of waffling anymore. I have choosen to cast my support for the society which reflects favourably upon our own ideals, and demonstrates liberal governance and grants rights to it's citizens in a manner most reflective of American ideal.

I don't understand why you continue to entertain the clearly baseless accusations (ie. Ethnic cleansing by Israel) when I've given you sourced statements in detail in my last post.

You've simply repeated the standard PLO party line and ignore the referenced data I provided. It's not a healthy outlook. I encourage you to research this and think this matter through.

 

[Comrade]

They are token Arabs who will never have a chance at becoming a powerful force in Israeli govt because the people who would support them are not allowed into the country ! How about a rigged democracy?

Palestine has it's own government. It's a totalitarian dictatorship ran by a professional terrorist, but it's theirs.

Israel has no soveriegnty over these people. The Palestinian people do not recognize Israel law, nor should they. No international body considers Israel law supreme among their affairs. And finally, no actual attempt to realize this rule of law would actually be successfull.

As I've stated several times, the Palestinians are ruled by the Palestinian authority.

Whether or not that authority is instable, totalitarian, unjust, corrupt, non-democratic, lacking common civil rights, accountability, and otherwise a really shitty half-assed government, Isreali law and governance has no part. If they want their own liberal democracy instead, let them have it. Israeli leaders would be overjoyed. But it's the Palestians own responsibility to create this. But if any other Arab state is an example, I'm quite confident it's rather unlikely to happen. Islamic society is rather typically non-democratic.

Since they don't recognize the rule of law of Israel (nor does anyone else in the international community), and in fact have their own body of leadership, they don't get to vote for Isreali leaders.

Does anyone still disagree?

 

[dilloduck]

Palestine has it's own government. It's a totalitarian dictatorship ran by a professional terrorist, but it's theirs.

Israel has no soveriegnty over these people. The Palestinian people do not recognize Israel law, nor should they. No international body considers Israel law supreme among their affairs. And finally, no actual attempt to realize this rule of law would actually be successfull.

As I've stated several times, the Palestinians are ruled by the Palestinian authority.

Whether or not that authority is instable, totalitarian, unjust, corrupt, non-democratic, lacking common civil rights, accountability, and otherwise a really shitty half-assed government, Isreali law and governance has no part. If they want their own liberal democracy instead, let them have it. Israeli leaders would be overjoyed. But it's the Palestians own responsibility to create this. But if any other Arab state is an example, I'm quite confident it's rather unlikely to happen. Islamic society is rather typically non-democratic.

Since they don't recognize the rule of law of Israel (nor does anyone else in the international community), and in fact have their own body of leadership, they don't get to vote for Isreali leaders.

Does anyone still disagree?

Is it the responsibity of the Arabs to form thier own country --yup I agree.

Do westerners like religious diverstity--NO

Israeli law may be a democracy but the freedoms do not spread equally among all citizens.

When Israel decides where they are going to let the arabs live autonamously maybe they can form a government.

 

[José]

Huh? If there are no more than a few dozen Jews left in any single Arab state today, and almost one million free and protected Israeli Muslims in Isreal, Israel is more guilty of ethnic cleanising? Truly bizzare.

I know...the minority who were grudgingly allowed to stay in Israel after Ben Gurion decided the arabs already outside Israel were enough to manufacture a jewish majority and create the sham democracy of Israel.

The ones which escaped the ovens only a few years ago were rich? Is this the thing about Jews always being rich?
Muslims don't treasure religious diversity like us Westerners. Their prophet Mohammad was reknown for murdering and enslaving Jews. This continues to be a religious tradition in Islam.

Let me see if I understand... Stereotypes about jews being rich are not allowed, only stereotypes about arab societies being intrinsically non democratic. : ) By the way, it is not a stereotype just a historical fact. I guess you can say the same about arab societies.

It's not about blame or rape, it's about history and war.

How come is not about blame? You were the one complaining about the ethnic cleansing of the jewish population of the arab countries.

When jews are expelled it’s ok to put the blame on the arabs, but when the jews expell other ethnicities is only about history and war?

No, those Jews escaping the Arab onslaught in 1948 were certainly not allowed to return to their homes outside the new state of Israel. They either made it to the border, leaving all behind, or were slaughtered. There are almost ZERO Jews remaining in the neighboring states around Israel.

There was also forced displacement of Jews INSIDE ISRAEL, in Jerusalem and Gush Etzion for example, and there would have been more, had it not been for the fact that Israel was mostly victorious. All these jewish refugees were allowed to return to their homes since they belonged to the official ethnicity of the state of Israel.

No, just their leadership and value system (are a threat to Israel).
No single Palestinian is an enemy, only those which persist in violence against the citizens of Israel, Arab or Jew or otherwise.

So why the israeli government does not allowed the return of those who are not involved in violence against Israel. You contradict yourself.

Most fled willingly. Those that remained and acted peacefull became Israeli citizens post 1948. Arabs remaining behind after 1948 were not punished, they were made citizens.

Comrade, historians like Benny Morris (a strongly pro-Israel historian by the way) have already made clear through their research that even before the end of the hostilities the israeli government decided no arab refugee would be allowed back in Israel (not even women and children). This is not an object of serious discussion anymore.

Let’s try to find some common ground here, Comrade. You know I’m not ajwps who never concedes any point to anyone no matter how proven it was. If someday I’m not willing to discuss in good faith, you can be sure I won’t post anymore.

Look, everybody knows war is a big mess.Almost everything happened in Israel in 1948. Arabs voluntarily leaving their towns to escape the crossfire, arabs being told to leave their towns by arab religious and political leaders and arabs being expelled from their homes by the israeli army.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let’s imagine I don’t blame the Israeli government not even for the arabs expelled by the israeli army, after all, it’s hard to worry with human rights when you have an enemy army trying to put a bullet in your head.

OK...that was 48...fastforward to 49... the war is over an all the displaced jews returned to their homes. Why couldn’t the members of the unofficial ethnicity of Israel do the same??? Because the israeli government decided even before the end of the hostilities that they would not be allowed back. And THIS DECISION is ethnic cleansing Comrade...whether you like it or not... if you have to leave the US for some reason and the US government doesn’t allow you to return and even bulldoze your house, they are responsible for your exile and not your original reason to leave anymore.

When Ben Gurion decided not to allow the arab refugees to return, he (the israeli government) became the only reason of their exile, not the crossfire or the arab leaders anymore.

More than 2000 palestinians were killed trying to “infiltrate” back into Israel since the israeli government refused to let them return. And this decision is still in place. The successors of Ben Gurion in the israeli goverment continue to deny them this fundamental right.

How many times have you heard Sharon saying the refugees will never be allowed back in Israel?? It’s almost unbelievible that a head of state is openly taking responsability for ethnic cleansing. You don’t have to believe in me... Sharon shamelessly takes full credit for their exile.

 

[José]

My point here is this is not an adequate comparison.In Isreal proper, Arab Muslims are most certainly not subject to any of the restaints to a South African black under apartheid could expect. They are, in fact, free and equal citizens, by law. That's a HUGE difference.

Look, Comrade. It’s pretty obvious by now, that the core of our disagreement is the right of return. Israel and South Africa under apartheid can be seen as democracies or racial dictatorships depending on one’s recognition of this right.

The point where you contradict yourself Comrade, is when you state black South Africans had the right to return from the Bantustans of South Africa to their places of origin but the arab palestinians don’t have the same right.

The creation of the Black States served as a kind of psychological painkiller to many whites during apartheid, just like the existence of the two arab Bantustans, West Bank and Gaza serves as a comfort to many Israel’s supporters.

Once apartheid had been implemented to the point where its victims were no longer citizens of South Africa, but instead citizens of the nominally independent "homelands", they no longer regarded themselves as responsible for their welfare.

TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS POINT, COMRADE. THE WEST BANK AND GAZA STRIP ARE THE ARAB VERSIONS OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN BANTUSTANS, PSEUDO-COUNTRIES WHERE PEOPLE EXPELLED FROM THEIR PLACES OF ORIGIN OR NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN, ARE CONFINED AGAINST THEIR WILL IN APPALLING CONDITIONS SO THAT A RACIST STATE CAN CREATE A SHAM DEMOCRACY BASED ON ETHNIC HIERARCHY.

In the 80’s, many South Africans used to say their country was not racist because blacks were not citizens of South Africa.

In 2004, people like Comrade call Israel a liberal democracy because palestinian war refugees are not citizens of Israel.

This is indeed a discussion everybody who lived in South Africa during the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s know by heart:

Pro-Apartheid South African: They are not South African citizens. How can South Africa be responsible or considered a racial dictatorship because of people who aren’t even South African citizens?

Anti-Apartheid South African: Of course they are not. How can you be a citizen of a country that expelled you from your home and don’t allow you to become a citizen?

Anti-Apartheid South African: They are not South African citizens. South Africa has every right to enforce its immigration laws to prevent aliens from living here, just like the US or Britain.

Anti-Apartheid South African: THEY ARE IMMIGRANTS ONLY INSIDE THIS TOILET YOU CARRY ON TOP OF YOUR NECK AND ALWAYS FORGET TO FLUSH!!!!! Black South Africans are not immigrants, they are the indigenous people of South Africa ... They are not South African citizens now thanks to an act of violence by the South African government: their forced displacement and their resetlement in Transkei and other Bantustans.

Pro-Apartheid South African: Be as it may the fact remains they are not citizens of South Africa. South Africa is South Africa, Transkei is Transkei and Transkei citizens and territory are not under South Africa’s jurisdiction.

Anti-Apartheid South African: You should ask why they are Transkei “citizens”. Then you will find out that they became “citizens” of that black slum through an act of ethnic cleansing, through expulsion.

Pro-Apartheid South African: You just admited again that they are Transkei citizens not South Africa’s.

Anti-Apartheid South African: They are not citizens because they were expelled.

Pro-Apartheid South African: They are not South African citizens.

Anti-Apartheid South African: Sure, because they were expelled.

Pro-Apartheid South African: They are not citizens.

Anti-Apartheid South African: They were expelled.

Pro-Apartheid South African: They are not citizens.

Anti-Apartheid South African: They were expelled.

Pro-Apartheid South African: They are not citizens.

Anti-Apartheid South African: They were expelled.

Pro-Apartheid South African: They are not citizens.

Anti-Apartheid South African: They were expelled.

Pro-Apartheid South African: They are not etc etc etc...

Unfortunately, this same dialogue of deafs that happened thousands of times between whites in South Africa under apartheid is now happening between us, Comrade.

 

[Comrade]

Is it the responsibity of the Arabs to form thier own country --yup I agree.

Do westerners like religious diverstity--NO

Israeli law may be a democracy but the freedoms do not spread equally among all citizens.

What is not equal? The right to vote? The right to freely worship? Specifically, please, what rights do Jewish citizens have in Israel have that Arab Muslims lack? Soveriegn Israel. What right is lacking?

When Israel decides where they are going to let the arabs live autonamously maybe they can form a government.

Which Arabs? Palestinian Arabs? Where Israeli soveriegnty doesn't apply?