Where FDR Went Wrong

[francoHFW]

Russia lost 20 million dead and won the war against Germany, conquering Eastern Europe and wanting a buffer. We would had to attack them to free them. Dumb idea, dingbats. lol

 

[The T]

I think every new generation of "progressives" some how think they can make communism work.

Despite China even going for capitalism. It's only our insane progressive ones that believe this shit.

And always noted: they are always academics who have everything in their life handed to them.

I remember the bread lines in the USSR. I remember going with my Baba to the post office and mailing off supplies to relatives. And this is even though in Kiev my aunts and uncles, cousins were all doctors and nurses and teachers.

How anyone believes that communism works lives in lala land. But then that's an academic isn't it now.

A good movie for them to watch is a movie from the 80's called 'Moscow On The Hudson'...(Robin Williams).

Forget Mr. Williams' Comedic genius, but I prefer to think a rather good portrayal of life within the old Soviet.

There are others I am sure (like WHITE NIGHTS, Gregory Hines [RIP, sir]...Mikhail Baryshnikov)...Is another accurate portrayal.

Communism Doesn't work, Socialism doesn't,(and variations of ALL) but as you say? Every generation thinks they can do it better and make it work...

Tyranny never works.

That is what ultimately happens. Man's history is replete with a plethora of examples. The best is what WE have...why are so many trying to destroy it?

I loved both those movies. Moscow on the Hudson really hit home in a sad sweet way. White Nights was nothing short of a genius of beauty meeting athleticism meeting two worlds.

But just for fun let me throw in Belushi with Arnie and one of my fave actors ever Peter Boyle.

Red Heat. I loved Ivan.

Art Ridzik: Yeah, I'm sure they taught you all about cars and the price of insurance at your famous Russian school in Kiev!

Ivan Danko: In socialist countries, insurance not necessary. State pays for everything.

Art Ridzik: Yeah? Well, tell me something, Captain. If you've got such a fucking paradise over there, how come you're up the same creek as we are with heroin and cocaine?

Ivan Danko: Chinese find way. Right after revolution, they round up all drug dealers, all drug addicts, take them to public square, and shoot them in back of head.

Art Ridzik: Ah, it'd never work here. Fucking politicians wouldn't go for it.

Ivan Danko: Shoot them first.



Go Ivan...Go Ivan...

Red Heat (1988) - Quotes - IMDb

I didn't intentionally omit that one...I forgot. Mea culpa.

 

[jgarden]

Historical rankings of Presidents of the United States

No. - President - Party
*******************************
16 Abraham Lincoln Republican
32 Franklin D. Roosevelt Democrat
01 George Washington None
03 Thomas Jefferson Dem-Repub
26 Theodore Roosevelt Republican
28 Woodrow Wilson Democratic
33 Harry S. Truman Democratic
07 Andrew Jackson Democratic)
34 Dwight D. Eisenhower Republican
11 James K. Polk Democratic
35 John F. Kennedy Democratic
02 John Adams Federalist
04 James Madison Dem-Repub
05 James Monroe Dem-Repub
36 Lyndon B. Johnson Democratic
44 Barack Obama Democratic
40 Ronald Reagan Republican
06 John Quincy Adams Dem-Repub
22/24 Grover Cleveland Democratic
25 William McKinley Republican
42 Bill Clinton Democratic
27 William Howard Taft Republican
41 George H. W. Bush Republican
08 Martin Van Buren Democratic
19 Rutherford B. Hayes Republican
38 Gerald Ford Republican
39 Jimmy Carter Democratic
21 Chester A. Arthur Republican
20 James A. Garfield Republican
31 Herbert Hoover Republican
30 Calvin Coolidge Republican
37 Richard Nixon Republican
23 Benjamin Harrison Republican
43 George W. Bush
10 John Tyler Whig
18 Ulysses S. Grant Republican
09 William Henry Harrison Whig
13 Millard Fillmore Whig
14 Franklin Pierce Democratic
17 Andrew Johnson Democratic
15 James Buchanan Democratic
29 Warren G. Harding Republican

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

With all due respect, 17 different surveys conducted between 1948 and 2011 disagree with the OP's assessment - they consistently ranked Franklin D. Roosevelt amongst the top 3 as America's greatest president.

SURVEYS
*********
Schl. 1948
Schl. 1962
M-B 1982
CT 1982
Siena 1982
Siena 1990
Siena 1994
R-McI 1996
Schl. 1996
C-SPAN 1999
WSJ 2000
Siena 2002
WSJ 2005
Times 2008**
C-SPAN 2009
Siena 2010
USPC 2011

 

[CrusaderFrank]

In a sentence: FDR prolonged an economic downturn into the worst Depression since the 7 Biblical lean years; supported, enabled, abetted and befriended history's two biggest mass murderers: Mao and Uncle Joe Stalin, and conducted Nazi-like experiments on blacks with the Tuskegee Experiments

 

[tinydancer]

A good movie for them to watch is a movie from the 80's called 'Moscow On The Hudson'...(Robin Williams).

Forget Mr. Williams' Comedic genius, but I prefer to think a rather good portrayal of life within the old Soviet.

There are others I am sure (like WHITE NIGHTS, Gregory Hines [RIP, sir]...Mikhail Baryshnikov)...Is another accurate portrayal.

Communism Doesn't work, Socialism doesn't,(and variations of ALL) but as you say? Every generation thinks they can do it better and make it work...

Tyranny never works.

That is what ultimately happens. Man's history is replete with a plethora of examples. The best is what WE have...why are so many trying to destroy it?

I loved both those movies. Moscow on the Hudson really hit home in a sad sweet way. White Nights was nothing short of a genius of beauty meeting athleticism meeting two worlds.

But just for fun let me throw in Belushi with Arnie and one of my fave actors ever Peter Boyle.

Red Heat. I loved Ivan.

Art Ridzik: Yeah, I'm sure they taught you all about cars and the price of insurance at your famous Russian school in Kiev!

Ivan Danko: In socialist countries, insurance not necessary. State pays for everything.

Art Ridzik: Yeah? Well, tell me something, Captain. If you've got such a fucking paradise over there, how come you're up the same creek as we are with heroin and cocaine?

Ivan Danko: Chinese find way. Right after revolution, they round up all drug dealers, all drug addicts, take them to public square, and shoot them in back of head.

Art Ridzik: Ah, it'd never work here. Fucking politicians wouldn't go for it.

Ivan Danko: Shoot them first.



Go Ivan...Go Ivan...

Red Heat (1988) - Quotes - IMDb

I didn't intentionally omit that one...I forgot. Mea culpa.

I loved the part about the budgie.

That really was a funny movie.

 

[tinydancer]

In a sentence: FDR prolonged an economic downturn into the worst Depression since the 7 Biblical lean years; supported, enabled, abetted and befriended history's two biggest mass murderers: Mao and Uncle Joe Stalin, and conducted Nazi-like experiments on blacks with the Tuskegee Experiments

No libs ever want to really talk about the real days of FDR do they?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

In a sentence: FDR prolonged an economic downturn into the worst Depression since the 7 Biblical lean years; supported, enabled, abetted and befriended history's two biggest mass murderers: Mao and Uncle Joe Stalin, and conducted Nazi-like experiments on blacks with the Tuskegee Experiments

And don't forget about the prison camps he sent Americans of Japanese ancestry to.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Also, by December 1941, when FDR finally goaded the Japanese into attacking, the German Army had marched to within spitting distance of the Kremlin. The Soviet spies in the FDR white House must have been overjoyed with Pearl Harbor

 

[Old Rocks]

LOL. The "Conservatives" are still trying to rewrite history in the best Stalinist tradition.

FDR will remain one of the best loved and respected Presidents.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

LOL. The "Conservatives" are still trying to rewrite history in the best Stalinist tradition.

FDR will remain one of the best loved and respected Presidents.

Why?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

LOL. The "Conservatives" are still trying to rewrite history in the best Stalinist tradition.

FDR will remain one of the best loved and respected Presidents.

The people who read manuscripts and real history of FDR will beg to differ. But don't worry, govt education will keep his angelic reverence.

 

[tinydancer]

In a sentence: FDR prolonged an economic downturn into the worst Depression since the 7 Biblical lean years; supported, enabled, abetted and befriended history's two biggest mass murderers: Mao and Uncle Joe Stalin, and conducted Nazi-like experiments on blacks with the Tuskegee Experiments

And don't forget about the prison camps he sent Americans of Japanese ancestry to.

oh boy I have so many rep IOU's in the morning.

Yes. Thank you for bringing this up.

 

[tinydancer]

If we really want to talk about "bad things" those camps took the cake.

I bet if you pulled a "man on the street" right now, no one under 40 would have learned about the internment camps in school. And that's a sin unto itself.

 

[jgarden]

In a sentence: FDR prolonged an economic downturn into the worst Depression since the 7 Biblical lean years; supported, enabled, abetted and befriended history's two biggest mass murderers: Mao and Uncle Joe Stalin, and conducted Nazi-like experiments on blacks with the Tuskegee Experiments

"CrusaderFrank" forgot to mention that FDR was also re-elected to 4 consecutive terms.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

If we really want to talk about "bad things" those camps took the cake.

I bet if you pulled a "man on the street" right now, no one under 40 would have learned about the internment camps in school. And that's a sin unto itself.

Old Rocks is ignorant about them, or maybe that's what made FDR so great?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Appointed a Klansman to SCOTUS

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Historical rankings of Presidents of the United States

No. - President - Party
*******************************
16 Abraham Lincoln Republican
32 Franklin D. Roosevelt Democrat
01 George Washington None
03 Thomas Jefferson Dem-Repub
26 Theodore Roosevelt Republican
28 Woodrow Wilson Democratic
33 Harry S. Truman Democratic
07 Andrew Jackson Democratic)
34 Dwight D. Eisenhower Republican
11 James K. Polk Democratic
35 John F. Kennedy Democratic
02 John Adams Federalist
04 James Madison Dem-Repub
05 James Monroe Dem-Repub
36 Lyndon B. Johnson Democratic
44 Barack Obama Democratic
40 Ronald Reagan Republican
06 John Quincy Adams Dem-Repub
22/24 Grover Cleveland Democratic
25 William McKinley Republican
42 Bill Clinton Democratic
27 William Howard Taft Republican
41 George H. W. Bush Republican
08 Martin Van Buren Democratic
19 Rutherford B. Hayes Republican
38 Gerald Ford Republican
39 Jimmy Carter Democratic
21 Chester A. Arthur Republican
20 James A. Garfield Republican
31 Herbert Hoover Republican
30 Calvin Coolidge Republican
37 Richard Nixon Republican
23 Benjamin Harrison Republican
43 George W. Bush
10 John Tyler Whig
18 Ulysses S. Grant Republican
09 William Henry Harrison Whig
13 Millard Fillmore Whig
14 Franklin Pierce Democratic
17 Andrew Johnson Democratic
15 James Buchanan Democratic
29 Warren G. Harding Republican

Historical rankings of Presidents of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With all due respect, 17 different surveys conducted between 1948 and 2011 disagree with the OP's assessment - they consistently ranked Franklin D. Roosevelt amongst the top 3 as America's greatest president.

SURVEYS
*********
Schl. 1948
Schl. 1962
M-B 1982
CT 1982
Siena 1982
Siena 1990
Siena 1994
R-McI 1996
Schl. 1996
C-SPAN 1999
WSJ 2000
Siena 2002
WSJ 2005
Times 2008**
C-SPAN 2009
Siena 2010
USPC 2011

Any survey giving 1/3 of the top six positions to two of the most racist piece of sh*t presidents that did the most to under mine our constitution in history says more about the pathetic state of our educational and news systems than anything else.

 

[Toronado3800]

Also, FDR conspired with Churchill and Stalin and ceded off eastern Europe to Russia.

This I will ask about.

At what point do you think FDR decided to give eastern Europe to the commies? Churchill who considered war against the Soviets was in on it?

At least say FDR was intimidated by the Red Army in '42.

Hitler had run rampant over the east. Stalin wasn't about to be left out of the spoils and he knew he had to have favor with Churchill and FDR. It happened towards the end of the war.

I still do not understand.

Was it Truman at Potsdam? Yalta? Tehran? What would you have done? Bumped the Red Army from the land they just took from the Germans?

By Potsdam we had the bomb. But FDR was dead....you would think the Cold War starting under Truman would remove him from the conversation....

This is a plan Churchill I guess considered before folks quickly told him it was fool hardy. If not for Gallipoli maybe he would have pursued it further. Patton would have loved it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

The initial primary goal of the operation was declared as follows: "to impose upon Russia the will of the United States and the British Empire. Even though 'the will' of these two countries may be defined as no more than a square deal for Poland, that does not necessarily limit the military commitment".[4] The word "Russia" is used heavily throughout the document, as during the Imperial period the term was used as pars pro toto for the Czarist Empire, with which the USSR was almost coterminous.

The Chiefs of Staff were concerned that given the enormous size of Soviet forces deployed in Europe at the end of the war, and the perception that the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin was unreliable, there existed a Soviet threat to Western Europe. The Soviet numerical superiority was roughly 4:1 in men and 2:1 in tanks at the end of hostilities in Europe.[1]

Here is more of Churchill preparing for war against the Russians

Operation Pike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even overflew Russian territory scouting.


And supported British (and I presume the American) troops fighting against the socialists in the Russian revolution

Russian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just do not see the favor. At some point you just could not deal with the Red Army and it was time to have faith in our system to win out economically in the long run.

 

[Toronado3800]

Also, by December 1941, when FDR was goaded the Japanese into attacking, the German Army had marched to within spitting distance of the Kremlin. The Soviet spies in the FDR white House must have been overjoyed with Pearl Harbor

Without a doubt they were thrilled!

FDR couldn't get the NAZI lovers like Lindbergh or Commie haters to bite on a war in Europe even after Poland and France ceased to exist. (There is a logic failing here with calling Hitler a socialist BTW, but that is another debate like the economic one you were starting).

But yeah, I agree. FDR had our navy in the right place for war. Our commanders failed to learn from Taranto that this was not to be Jutland we were fighting. Maybe some of that racism you cited I suppose.

Also I would like to thank you for pointing out the time frame. December 1941, Germans pushed back from the suburbs of Moscow, America gets pulled into the war. Stupid Germans declaring war lol.

 

[Toronado3800]

1. This guy I know went to a club, where he met a very attractive blonde. After a few drinks, they went back to his apartment, where, filled with anticipation, they wound up in bed. And he discovered that 'she' had a penis.

"I thought you wouldn't care." He did. His words to me: 'It's always somethin.'"





2. In a way, this is the problem with FDR's role in American history. Just like the blonde, he had a number of attractive features....but one glaring problem: a misunderstanding of geopolitical reality.
'It's always somethin.'"

a. That 'somethin' resulted in the United States becoming, for all intents and purposes, a vassal of the Soviet Union. It caused the Korean War. It is the reason that China became Maoist, with 75 million deaths. And if the United States ever goes to war with China....the 'somethin' will have been the provenance.

3. Roosevelt laughed off, literally, all of the revelations of Soviet agents in his administration. He never cared if his conversations were bugged by the Russians. He sent the USSR materials necessary to build the atomic bomb. One of his first official acts was the United States recognizing the Soviet Union, November 20th, 1933. The list of goes on and on, leading many to believe the was an agent of the Soviet Union.

That wasn't the case.






4. To understand what happened, recognize that a distinguishing characteristic of Liberals and Leftists is an aversion to acknowledging evil and its permutations, i.e., communism. Leftist believe that people are essentially good, and the result is the proclivity to appease evil and ignore the sad facts of life.
It is a form of child-like wishful thinking.
It infected all of FDR's policies.






5. Dennis J. Dunn writes in "Caught Between Roosevelt & Stalin: America's Ambassadors to Moscow," that FDR believed in a theory of convergence that applied to the USSR and the US, i.e., that capitalism and Communism would each take on characteristics of the other. They would converge. FDR's contribution toward convergence was expanding the powers and reach of centralized government.

a. Dunn explains FDR's thinking: convergence theory "held that Soviet Russia and the United States were on convergent paths, where the United States was moving from laissez-faire capitalism to welfare state socialism and the Soviet Union was evolving from totalitarianism to social democracy."

b. Since FDR himself had moved the United States from laissez-faire capitalism to welfare state socialism....well, FDR was half right.

But....if only one half is doing all the converging....it is simply capitulation.

6. And so, Dunn explains, FDR's dogmatic belief in a point of convergence up the road is what allowed Roosevelt to discount and overlook all the violent contradictory evidence, the spying, the manipulation, the justification for the brutality of genocidal famines and gulags and every act of police-state repression.

The theory is what made FDR, if not a participant, at least an accomplice.
In our name.






7. In memoirs, both Representative Martin Dies, [p. 144-148] an earlier incarnation of Senator Joseph McCarthy, and, on the other side, Roosevelt ally Cardinal Spellman, [p. 222-225] both describe conversations with Roosevelt in which he speaks of his belief in convergence of the two nations. Dunn describes an interview with Averell Harriman, in which Harriman "emphasized the importance of the theory of convergence in explaining Roosevelt's policies."




8. "Adopting the "pseudoprofound theory of convergence," Rooseveltians claimed that the Soviet Union "was moving ineluctably toward democracy" (pp. 3-4). The author alleges that "moral relativism" prompted Roosevelt to mislead the American public and ignore his foreign policy advisors in order to prove that Stalin was an evolving democrat, not "a genocidal megalomaniac guided by the higher power of revolutionary inevitability ..." (p. 4, 6).

In contrast, "Traditionalists" rejected the theory of convergence. ... they viewed Stalin as "a murderer, a liar, and a vicious opponent of the United States and of pluralism generally."...." Traditionalists wanted Roosevelt to compel the Soviets to adopt democracy and "the minimum standards of moral behavior that were outlined in the world's principal religions and moral codes." These pleas, however, went unheeded as Roosevelt remained intent on pursuing "his policy of uncritical friendship toward Stalin" (pp. 8-9)."
H-Net Reviews





Today, it seems we have so very many Leftists who are still enchanted with the blonde's better feature.....

...and are willing to ignore 'somethin'......

I disagree with your POV but the analogy is humorous and makes sense. No picking on me for talking abou "slummin" though lol.

My opinion would be neither system works well in its pure state due to the same human failings. But yes, u made me chuckle.

NO system envisioned by men will ever be perfect. What the Founders gave us is as close as it will ever get as they proclaimed GOD to be the ultimate arbiter. (SEE the Declaration).

Glad you managed a <chuckle>. But not a laughing matter.

Press on Montesquieu.

Yes, God is great I agree.....Though shalt not kill, judgement is mine (Romans 12:19). Turn the other cheek. God loves us all. I am missing the point I fear..

I will attempt to connect the dots between FDR and the Founders I suppose since you brought them up.

1920's - great until 1929 great depression. 1929 BTW not 1933.

1910's World War. Our isolated state gave us an advantage coming out of the war relative to other economies (see 1945 also)

1900 our first global empire won from dying Spain.

1830 - 1900 Pre-Emption and Homestead welfare acts, the land welfare era. This is a VERY important aspect of our expansion. It populated the west before Canada, Native Americans or Mexico could form into viable military threats. Also in the more simple era of economics this was the government welfare system.

Pa Ingalls, don't like how things are going in the city? Go squat on some land and we will try our darndest to defend you with the military and virtually give it to you. This form of welfare was GREAT. It accomplished something for the country and gave Uncle Sam a method of providing hope for the poor.

Wanna build a transcontinental railroad? Not really because you think you'll go bankrupt, well, we will give you soo much land the UP (CP/SP and UP are one now) is STILL selling it off. AND we will give you the military for aid if you need to clear natives.

Them big government pre socialists of the 19th century sure were effective at pumping an economy. Come 1933 what could you do? No more Indian land to give away so where inspiration struck you got the Civilian Conservation Corps, other places the modern welfare system was born which I do think is one step to easy to claim.

From the Louisiana Purchase land was sort of sold under a series of Land Acts. Or well, the government would loan you the money to buy the land if you had a down payment.

So yeah, from 1789 to 1804 I am unaware of any HUGE organized federal giveaways although I suspect if you just squatted in the North West (Ohio) and the Indians attacked President Washington would repeatedly send troops in to avenge you.

----------------------------

Man, that took a moment. Despite my tone, I will say if I was President in 1830 or 1880 I wonder what my moral compass would have done over the eradication of the Native Americans in the name of Manifest Destiny. So I AM NOT criticizing any of our leaders unfairly there. I also see the point to the land grants and love how you probably had to at least live there to get the land and just living there was accomplishing something positive.