Where is palestine

[P F Tinmore]

http://pov-tc.pbs.org/pov/pdf/promiese/promises-timeline.pdf

The above timeline is interesting because both Jews and Arabs agree on the facts but have a different perspective on the facts.

reasonable, I was just thinking that myself. I was disappointed the link didn't specify that five Arab Muslim nations declared war on the fledgling Israel though. It would have been important to keep the notion of an aggressor and a defender in the forefront, when considering subsequent events and in order to understand the siege mentality of the Israeli's. It also has huge implications in applying the geneva conventions.

It also failed to mention that the UN refused to segregate combatants from legitimate refugees and lent aid to both parties as well as protected combatants within UN camps. Descendants of combatants either legal of illegal are not eligible for refugee status and enjoy no protections as refugees or civilians within the disputed territories.

Oh and Tinmore
Of course it matters. This whole thing is one big fat twist of intermingling laws treaties and conventions. If we lose sight of the particulars, then we lose perspective on what happened next and why the revisionist view with all its associated PR came into play. Its truth that is being offended by the revisionist narative, without truth we can never find middle ground and eventually peace.

Had you argued that those who qualified as legitimate refugees, had no part in the fighting or any other activity considered detrimental to the state, and wished to remain in their homes and places of birth, I would have wholeheartedly agreed. If you had argued to finally go back and sort out the mess the UN created when they refused to separate legitimate refugees from legal and illegal combatants, such that only those who actually qualified for refugee status were to recieve consideration for a subsequent settlement. I would also agree.

However
What I'm hearing is a totalitarian response designed to destabilize Israel with not just a flood of hostile active combatants as well as remove defensible borders. IE an agreement to set up the chess board such that Israel can't possibly defend itself. And thats not happening.

I can easily show within the legalities of the situation that the responsible parties are to pay reparations to refugees, Which IMHO would hands down be the party that declared war in the first place. I can also show within the legalities that there is no actual right of return, its a suggestion. The list goes on.

I'd also admit that the situation sucks for all concerned. I'd be one pissed off kid if I had to put up with daily terrorist attacks or living behind a wall. Deal is the first step in solving this mess is to all put down are weapons and just stop.

Give peace have a chance.

You are just making up excuses. The ethnic cleansing was a pre planned necessity to create a Jewish majority state when Jews were only about 1/3 of the population.

 

[irosie91]

http://pov-tc.pbs.org/pov/pdf/promiese/promises-timeline.pdf

The above timeline is interesting because both Jews and Arabs agree on the facts but have a different perspective on the facts.

reasonable, I was just thinking that myself. I was disappointed the link didn't specify that five Arab Muslim nations declared war on the fledgling Israel though. It would have been important to keep the notion of an aggressor and a defender in the forefront, when considering subsequent events and in order to understand the siege mentality of the Israeli's. It also has huge implications in applying the geneva conventions.

It also failed to mention that the UN refused to segregate combatants from legitimate refugees and lent aid to both parties as well as protected combatants within UN camps. Descendants of combatants either legal of illegal are not eligible for refugee status and enjoy no protections as refugees or civilians within the disputed territories.

Oh and Tinmore
Of course it matters. This whole thing is one big fat twist of intermingling laws treaties and conventions. If we lose sight of the particulars, then we lose perspective on what happened next and why the revisionist view with all its associated PR came into play. Its truth that is being offended by the revisionist narative, without truth we can never find middle ground and eventually peace.

Had you argued that those who qualified as legitimate refugees, had no part in the fighting or any other activity considered detrimental to the state, and wished to remain in their homes and places of birth, I would have wholeheartedly agreed. If you had argued to finally go back and sort out the mess the UN created when they refused to separate legitimate refugees from legal and illegal combatants, such that only those who actually qualified for refugee status were to recieve consideration for a subsequent settlement. I would also agree.

However
What I'm hearing is a totalitarian response designed to destabilize Israel with not just a flood of hostile active combatants as well as remove defensible borders. IE an agreement to set up the chess board such that Israel can't possibly defend itself. And thats not happening.

I can easily show within the legalities of the situation that the responsible parties are to pay reparations to refugees, Which IMHO would hands down be the party that declared war in the first place. I can also show within the legalities that there is no actual right of return, its a suggestion. The list goes on.

I'd also admit that the situation sucks for all concerned. I'd be one pissed off kid if I had to put up with daily terrorist attacks or living behind a wall. Deal is the first step in solving this mess is to all put down are weapons and just stop.

Give peace have a chance.

You are just making up excuses. The ethnic cleansing was a pre planned necessity to create a Jewish majority state when Jews were only about 1/3 of the population.

really? you consider all demographic shifts "pre planned ethnic cleansings"?----who did the planning? How are these "ETHNIC CLEANSINGS" 'planned'? In Hookah parlors? Way back at the close of the 19th century----there were pogroms against black americans in New York City------because the migrations of
blacks from the southern part of the USA in the second half of the 19th century were
seen as being a PRE-PLANNED PLOT-----to "CREATE A BLACK MAJORITY IN
PARTS OF NEW YORK CITY IN ORDER TO HIJACK JOBS FROM IRISH
AMERICANS" People who see life as you do hanged blacks from street lamp
poles

 

[Boston1]

Enough with the off subject nonsense

 

[Dhara]

What an impasse! Israeli's thinking Palestine doesn't have a right to exist and Arabs thinking Israel doesn't have a right to exist. No wonder they can't find a way to peace.

 

[Dhara]

Right to exist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[irosie91]

how does matter DIVEST ITSELF of -----THE RIGHT TO EXIST????----Sir Isaac Newton's First Law of Thermodynamics. --
***Matter can neither be created nor destroyed****

take it up with Sir Isaac. While you are at it-----ask him WHY he invented
that damned calculus-----a subject that gave me so much trouble the first
semester that when I faced the final exam---the first semester-----I wanted to
divest myself of existence

 

[irosie91]

Enough with the off subject nonsense

what is the topic?

 

[Dhara]

Does Israel or Palestine have a right to exist? What land are we talking about when we use the term, "Palestine".

 

[Dhara]

Early History of Palestine

 

[Dhara]

It's very difficult to just find facts without a bias one way or another, either in favor of Israel and Jews or of Arab Palestinians.

 

[Dhara]

The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.

Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[Dhara]

Palestinians” is the commonly used appellation for the descendants of approximately 780,000 Arabs who were displaced by a war between five Arab nations and the newly proclaimed state of Israel in 1948. When the war began, some of the Arabs abandoned their homes in fear, while others left believing that they would soon return. Of course, they did not anticipate that the Israelis would win the war, much less such a lopsided victory. Since that time, these displaced peoples and their descendants have lived in temporary camps without a land they could call their own. The bitter dispute over the ownership of Palestine continues to this day. Neither people is willing to accept the other’s claim to total control of the territory that both consider their own.
Palestine Israel Whose Land Is It, Really

 

[Dhara]

What was the Palestine of today called before Roman times? It was called ‘Palestine’, which was by no means a transient name, being witnessed from around 1175 BCE and often thereafter. There are certainly other names for parts of Palestine and for the wider region to which Palestine belonged and there are yet other names placed on ‘utopian maps’ which describe what should be rather than what is. Of course all the famous Biblical names, very much including ‘Israel’, play a part in the story of this region.

What study of these names, perhaps especially of ‘Israel’, reveals is very interesting. What we perceive is a territory, properly called ‘ancient Palestine’, that had been somewhat multicultural for as long as memory could extend.

- See more at: ‘Palestine’ is an ancient name, for a land of many cultures

 

[irosie91]

Does Israel or Palestine have a right to exist? What land are we talking about when we use the term, "Palestine".

Palestine is, historically, at first described by the Greek Historian HERODOTUS
----fifth century BC as a kind of LAND MASS-----that ran from what is today GAZA and ASHKELON (where some Aegean people lived) all the way to
ASSYRIA---populated also by Aegean type people---to wit PHONECIANS---mostly
today SYRIA. ------a general LAND MASS---not a country. The word Palestina
was adopted by the ROMANS to be applied to the conquered previously
JUDEA------with the sack of Jerusalem about 70 ad. Judea was what is today
called ISRAEL --(in general) and what is today called WEST BANK (in general)
There have been lots of border shifts in "LANDS" In simple terms---PALESTINA is
the land of the what was "JUDEA" ----for the romans when Herod was king

 

[irosie91]

Palestinians” is the commonly used appellation for the descendants of approximately 780,000 Arabs who were displaced by a war between five Arab nations and the newly proclaimed state of Israel in 1948. When the war began, some of the Arabs abandoned their homes in fear, while others left believing that they would soon return. Of course, they did not anticipate that the Israelis would win the war, much less such a lopsided victory. Since that time, these displaced peoples and their descendants have lived in temporary camps without a land they could call their own. The bitter dispute over the ownership of Palestine continues to this day. Neither people is willing to accept the other’s claim to total control of the territory that both consider their own.
Palestine Israel Whose Land Is It, Really

^^^ just slightly misleading in that PALESTINE covered a lot more than JUST
what became ISRAEL in 1948. In fact it included TRANSJORDAN (today called JORDAN and also Gaza. Historically it included parts of Syria and
Lebanon. It never had -----entirely permanent borders over the past 2000 years

 

[Dhara]

This area is a land that has been in dispute for millenia. There is no wonder it's so hard to resolve.

Ancient Palestine
The earliest known inhabitants of Palestine were of the same group as the Neanderthal inhabitants of Europe. By the 4th millennium B.C. Palestine was inhabited by herders and farmers. It was in the 3d millennium that most of the towns known in historical times came into existence. They became centers of trade for Egyptian and Babylonian goods. During the 2d millennium, Palestine was ruled by the Hyksos and by the Egyptians. Toward the end of this period Moses led the Hebrew people (see Jews) out of Egypt, across the Sinai, and into Palestine.

Around 1200 B.C., the Philistines ("Sea Peoples") invaded the southern coastland and established a powerful kingdom (see Philistia). The Hebrews were subject to the Philistines until c.1000 B.C., when an independent Hebrew kingdom was established under Saul, who was succeeded by David and then by Solomon. After the expansionist reign of Solomon (c.950 B.C.), the kingdom broke up into two states, Israel, with its capital at Samaria, and Judah, under the house of David, with its capital at Jerusalem. The two kingdoms were later conquered by expanding Mesopotamian states, Israel by Assyria (c.720 B.C.) and Judah by Babylonia (586 B.C.).

In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish Temple, destroyed by the Babylonians, was rebuilt (516 B.C.). Under Persian rule Palestine enjoyed considerable autonomy. Alexander the Great of Macedon, conquered Palestine in 333 B.C. His successors, the Ptolemies and Seleucids, contested for Palestine. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV (Antiochus Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees, who set up a new Jewish state in 142 B.C. The state lasted until 63 B.C., when Pompey conquered Palestine for Rome.

Christianity and Islam
Palestine at the time of Jesus was ruled by puppet kings of the Romans, the Herods (see Herod). When the Jews revolted in A.D. 66, the Romans destroyed the Temple (A.D. 70). Another revolt between A.D. 132 and 135 was also suppressed (see Bar Kokba, Simon), Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. When Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (312), Palestine became a center of Christian pilgrimage, and many Jews left the region. Palestine over the next few centuries generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 by the Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to the Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640.

At this time (during the Umayyad rule), the importance of Palestine as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized, and in 691 the Dome of the Rock was erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims to have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close to the Dome, the Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the Abbasid caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.

In the 9th cent., Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies—the Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins—and Palestine became a battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996–1021), the Christians and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In 1099, Palestine was captured by the Crusaders (see Crusades), who established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended; they were finally driven out of Palestine by the Mamluks in 1291. Under Mamluk rule Palestine declined.

Turkish Rule....see more at link:

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/world/palestine-region-asia-history.html

 

[Boston1]

Go to the Jordan is palestine and palestine is Jordan thread

 

[Dhara]

Turkish Rule
In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. Among the many European settlements established, the most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the first to come (1882).

Conflict between Arabs and Zionists
In the late 19th cent. the Zionist movement was founded (see Zionism) with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and dozens of Zionist colonies were founded there. At the start of the Zionist colonization of Palestine in the late 19th cent., the rural people were Arab peasants (fellahin). Most of the population were Muslims, but in the urban areas there were sizable groups of Arab Christians (at Nazareth, Bethlehem, and Jerusalem) and of Jews (at Zefat, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Jericho, and Hebron).

At the same time Arab nationalism was developing in the Middle East in opposition to Turkish rule. In World War I the British, with Arab aid, gained control of Palestine. In the Balfour Declaration (1917) the British promised Zionist leaders to aid the establishment of a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with due regard for the rights of non-Jewish Palestinians. However, the British had also promised Arab leaders to support the creation of independent Arab states. The Arabs believed Palestine was to be among these, an intention that the British later denied.

In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and 58,000 Jews in Palestine. The first Arab anti-Zionist riots occurred in Palestine in 1920. The League of Nations approved the British mandate in 1922, although the actual administration of the area had begun in 1920. As part of the mandate Britain was given the responsibility for aiding the Jewish homeland and fostering Jewish immigration there. The British stressed that their policy to aid the homeland did not include making all Palestine the homeland, but rather that such a home should exist within Palestine and that there were economic limits on how many immigrants should be admitted (1922 White Paper).

In the 1920s, Jewish immigration was slight, but the Jewish communities made great economic progress. In 1929 there was serious Jewish-Arab violence occasioned by a clash at the Western, or Wailing, Wall in Jerusalem. A British report found that Arabs feared the economic and political consequences of continued Jewish immigration with its attendant land purchases. Zionists were angered when a new White Paper (1930) urged limiting immigration, but they were placated by Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald (1931).

The rise of Nazism in Europe during the 1930s led to a great increase in immigration. Whereas there were about 5,000 immigrants authorized in 1932, about 62,000 were authorized in 1935. Arabs conducted strikes and boycotts; a general strike in 1936, organized by Haj Amin al Husayni, mufti of Jerusalem, lasted six months. Some Arabs acquired weapons and formed a guerrilla force. The Peel commission (1937), finding British promises to Zionists and Arabs irreconcilable, declared the mandate unworkable and recommended the partition of Palestine into Jewish, Arab, and British (largely the holy places) mandatory states. The Zionists reluctantly approved partition, but the Arabs rejected it, objecting particularly to the proposal that the Arab population be forcibly transferred out of the proposed Jewish state.

The British dropped the partition idea and announced a new policy (1939 White Paper). Fifteen thousand Jews a year would be allowed to immigrate for the next five years, after which Jewish immigration would be subject to Arab acquiescence; Jewish land purchases were to be restricted; and within 10 years an independent, binational Palestine would be established.
http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/world/palestine-region-asia-history.html

 

[irosie91]

Go to the Jordan is palestine and palestine is Jordan thread

where is that thread? Jordan is the old TRANSJORDAN----the part of Palestine that Great Britain handed to what are actually something like Saudi Arabian Bedouins

 

[Dhara]

I can't find it either, rosie.