White man shoots innocent black teen....

[mudwhistle]

According to liberals, no, a minority cannot be a racist.

Zimmerman is in no way obligated to listen to a 911 dispatcher. Citizens are allowed to contront and stop crimes if they are happening. Flordia's law, in fact, says that anyone is allowed to hold their ground with deadly force if they feel threatened. There is no obligation to try to run away in order to claim self-defense. It would be very hard to convict him of murder with such a law.

You present a perfect argument except for the glaring flaw (bold & underlined). What crime was happening? What had Martin done which is in any way unlawful? Based on everything I've read and heard, Zimmerman acted without reasonable cause. My understanding is even police are constrained from doing that.

I'll concede that I'm from New York/New Jersey and I know nothing about Florida law. But is it lawful there for an ordinary citizen to aggressively confront and question another citizen on public thoroughfare because of some vague suspicion of wrongdoing?

Here's the text of the law:

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

There's nothing in there that authorizes killing someone simply because they are walking in a neighborhood where they have every right to be.

And in fact, it specifically doesn't apply to the killing of children.

If anyone in this case had the justification to use deadly force, it would have been the victim.

It does justify deadly force if you are in fear for your life.

I think you should STFU until you know what really happened.

 

[Ravi]

You present a perfect argument except for the glaring flaw (bold & underlined). What crime was happening? What had Martin done which is in any way unlawful? Based on everything I've read and heard, Zimmerman acted without reasonable cause. My understanding is even police are constrained from doing that.

I'll concede that I'm from New York/New Jersey and I know nothing about Florida law. But is it lawful there for an ordinary citizen to aggressively confront and question another citizen on public thoroughfare because of some vague suspicion of wrongdoing?

Here's the text of the law:

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

There's nothing in there that authorizes killing someone simply because they are walking in a neighborhood where they have every right to be.

And in fact, it specifically doesn't apply to the killing of children.

If anyone in this case had the justification to use deadly force, it would have been the victim.

It does justify deadly force if you are in fear for your life.

I think you should STFU until you know what really happened.

If he was in fear of his life, he wouldn't have left his vehicle and pursued the kid.

 

[PredFan]

And....Zimmerman is Hispanic.

 

[PredFan]

You present a perfect argument except for the glaring flaw (bold & underlined). What crime was happening? What had Martin done which is in any way unlawful? Based on everything I've read and heard, Zimmerman acted without reasonable cause. My understanding is even police are constrained from doing that.

I'll concede that I'm from New York/New Jersey and I know nothing about Florida law. But is it lawful there for an ordinary citizen to aggressively confront and question another citizen on public thoroughfare because of some vague suspicion of wrongdoing?

Here's the text of the law:

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

There's nothing in there that authorizes killing someone simply because they are walking in a neighborhood where they have every right to be.

And in fact, it specifically doesn't apply to the killing of children.

If anyone in this case had the justification to use deadly force, it would have been the victim.

It does justify deadly force if you are in fear for your life.

I think you should STFU until you know what really happened.

Exactly. The media hype, the intentional attempt to inflame racial tension, and the way the shooter has already been found guilty in the court of public opinion, I don't know which is more rediculous

 

[Emma]

Look, people, instead of screaming charges and counter charges, and making wild and mostly unsubstantiated allegations, let's ask some questions that have not been answered,or on which there are contradictory accounts. Then let's see what if any , factual answers exist to any of these.

(1) At the beginning of the initial 911 call, Zimmerman is apparently in his vehicle. At precisely what point did Zimmerman exit the vehicle, and why?

(2) Did Martin confront Zimmerman, or did Zimmerman confront Martin ?

What is reported that zimmerman told police doesn't make sense, because of his call to police and the area where this occurred. If the girlfriend's statement is to be believed (and if she was on the call from the start), then Martin confronted zimmerman first by asking why he was following him.

(3) Witness testimony indicates there was a physical altercation between Martin and Zimmerman. Which one initiated use of physical force, and why?

(4) Whose voice is heard screaming for help on the 911 tape?

It was reported that police let the parents listen to the tape prior to its release, and that the mother became hysterical when she heard those cries for help. Both parents have said that was their son's voice. I believe them. A parent would certainly recognize their child's scream. Which leaves me with a very unsettling conclusion ... zimmerman knew that people must have heard the kid yelling for help, he had a dead kid lying at his feet, and knowing the law, decided to tell police he was the one yelling for help. I'd like to know if there is any way LE can determine who it was screaming on the tape.

(5) Zimmerman was carrying a handgun. Was it concealed?

(6)If the gun was carried concealed, at what point did Zimmerman either inform Martin that he was armed, or first draw the gun?

(7) Martin fell face down after he was shot. Was he shot from the front, or the back?

(8) Two witnesses state they saw Zimmerman on the ground before the shot was fired. There are three ways he could have reasonably got there (a) he tripped and fell (b) Martin knocked or wrestled him to the ground, or (c) Zimmerman tackled or tried to tackle Martin. Which is most consistent with the witness accounts and the physical evidence?

Some here have claimed that Martin was on top with zimmerman on his back. How did Martin end up face down if this is when zimmerman shot him? Seems to me he'd fall backward or to the side. How he ended up face down is a concern.

(9) What were/are the actual height and weight of each of the two subjects?

It's reported that Martin weighed 140 pounds; not sure of the height. One of his photos show him in a football uniform, maybe that's where the press found that information. Zimmerman was reported as 250 pounds. Not sure where that came from, maybe police report?

(10) Zimmerman is described by a witness as having blood on his face and the back of his head. What were Zimmerman's actual apparent injuries?

It's possible that Martin fought back and got in a hit to the lip or nose. Did Martin cause the injury to his head or did he strike his head on the sidewalk as they wrestled about? Was he tested to determine if the blood was actually his and not Martin's?

(11) Presumably, an autopsy was performed on Martin. Did Martin have any other injuries besides a gunshot wound (such as bruises and/or abrasions on his knuckles or elsewhere)? Were there any other relevant autopsy findings?

And did they determine where the shot entered his body (front or back) and from what angle, and is it consistent with what zimmerman told the police.

(12) What physical evidence, if any, was collected at the scene? If none, why not?

(13) Did Zimmerman have alcohol on his breath, or appear impaired in any way? If so, was a field sobriety test and or a breath test administered? If not, why?

It's been widely reported that zimmerman was not tested for drugs or alcohol.

(14) Is Zimmerman's account of the events as given to officers consistent with the 911 tapes (in their entirety), the statements of the witnesses, and the physical evidence at the scene? In what respects , if any is it inconsistent with any of these?

Note that all these questions should be answered by even a basic on-scene police investigation, interviews with witnesses, basic forensics, and autopsy findings on the victim. They are basic to determining the veracity (or lack thereof), of Zimmerman's account of the incident, and to a preliminary determination as to whether Martin's death was most likely a case of self-defense, or a wrongful homicide. Yet virtually none of these answers, required in even a basic death investigation, have been disclosed by either the Seminole County Sheriff, or the Sanford Police Department. Why not?

As I see it, those are the most basic and impartial questions. Many of the answers should be contained in the initial incident report(s) of the responding officer(s). Are they? If not, why not?

Good questions. I hope the grand jury is able to get to the bottom of this ... although 2 months after the fact, some will obviously be left unanswered.

 

[mudwhistle]

Here's the text of the law:

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

There's nothing in there that authorizes killing someone simply because they are walking in a neighborhood where they have every right to be.

And in fact, it specifically doesn't apply to the killing of children.

If anyone in this case had the justification to use deadly force, it would have been the victim.

It does justify deadly force if you are in fear for your life.

I think you should STFU until you know what really happened.

If he was in fear of his life, he wouldn't have left his vehicle and pursued the kid.

Ravi....you really don't know anything, do you?

Seems the only violence you've witnessed is on the TV.

You've never been in a life-or-death situation.

Shit doesn't always go like it does in movies. Fights are not choreographed.

What it looks like is the hispanic neighborhood watch guy asked the guy who he was and what he was doing, the black kid got an attitude and it turned into a fight. They say the hispanic guy got a gash on his head from a can the black kid hit him with. He shouldn't have had a gun with him. He shot the kid and he's dead.

Now what does this all prove to you????

Does it prove that the GOP hates blacks?????

My guess is it does, in your mind at least. But what I'm seeing is two of the Democrat's special-interest groups fighting it out and racist opportunists trying to capitalize off of the situation because the shooter has what appears to be a white name.

As it is I have better things to do than deal with his media generated controversy.

 

[Sallow]

Here's the text of the law:

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

There's nothing in there that authorizes killing someone simply because they are walking in a neighborhood where they have every right to be.

And in fact, it specifically doesn't apply to the killing of children.

If anyone in this case had the justification to use deadly force, it would have been the victim.

It does justify deadly force if you are in fear for your life.

I think you should STFU until you know what really happened.

If he was in fear of his life, he wouldn't have left his vehicle and pursued the kid.

This is the most crucial part of the exchange. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, like a hunter stalking prey. This, despite the fact that the dispatcher told him not to do so. Martin was not engaged in any obvious criminal activity. Zimmerman also used a racial epithet on the tape.

The cops completely bungled this as well. They did a background check on Martin and checked the body for drugs and alcohol. They also held the body for three days without informing the family. Zimmerman was shortly questioned and released. At the very least this stinks of bias.

 

[mudwhistle]

It does justify deadly force if you are in fear for your life.

I think you should STFU until you know what really happened.

If he was in fear of his life, he wouldn't have left his vehicle and pursued the kid.

This is the most crucial part of the exchange. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, like a hunter stalking prey. This, despite the fact that the dispatcher told him not to do so. Martin was not engaged in any obvious criminal activity. Zimmerman also used a racial epithet on the tape.

The cops completely bungled this as well. They did a background check on Martin and checked the body for drugs and alcohol. They also held the body for three days without informing the family. Zimmerman was shortly questioned and released. At the very least this stinks of bias.

I don't remember yelling at deer in the woods; "HEY.....WHERE ARE YOU GOING....DO YOU BELONG HERE???"

 

[Sallow]

If he was in fear of his life, he wouldn't have left his vehicle and pursued the kid.

This is the most crucial part of the exchange. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, like a hunter stalking prey. This, despite the fact that the dispatcher told him not to do so. Martin was not engaged in any obvious criminal activity. Zimmerman also used a racial epithet on the tape.

The cops completely bungled this as well. They did a background check on Martin and checked the body for drugs and alcohol. They also held the body for three days without informing the family. Zimmerman was shortly questioned and released. At the very least this stinks of bias.

I don't remember yelling at deer in the woods; "HEY.....WHERE ARE YOU GOING....DO YOU BELONG HERE???"

A long time ago..a couple of muggers said the very same thing to me.

 

[mudwhistle]

This is the most crucial part of the exchange. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, like a hunter stalking prey. This, despite the fact that the dispatcher told him not to do so. Martin was not engaged in any obvious criminal activity. Zimmerman also used a racial epithet on the tape.

The cops completely bungled this as well. They did a background check on Martin and checked the body for drugs and alcohol. They also held the body for three days without informing the family. Zimmerman was shortly questioned and released. At the very least this stinks of bias.

I don't remember yelling at deer in the woods; "HEY.....WHERE ARE YOU GOING....DO YOU BELONG HERE???"

A long time ago..a couple of muggers said the very same thing to me.

Whatever.

Usually one doesn't hunt prey by loudly identifying themselves.

 

[manifold]

I always watch out for the area around where I live. Always.

If you don't, who else will.

 

[Sallow]

I don't remember yelling at deer in the woods; "HEY.....WHERE ARE YOU GOING....DO YOU BELONG HERE???"

A long time ago..a couple of muggers said the very same thing to me.

Whatever.

Usually one doesn't hunt prey by loudly identifying themselves.

Depends on the prey. Martin was running away..and Zimmerman wanted him to stop. Well he stopped.

 

[manifold]

...this man thought the kid was up to no good based on his skin color when it is perfectly normal for young blacks to be walking around the community.

Do you even realize how retardedly contradictory ^this statement is?

 

[mudwhistle]

A long time ago..a couple of muggers said the very same thing to me.

Whatever.

Usually one doesn't hunt prey by loudly identifying themselves.

Depends on the prey. Martin was running away..and Zimmerman wanted him to stop. Well he stopped.

I've seen no evidence to say he was running away.

You're making this shit up.

 

[Emma]

This is the most crucial part of the exchange. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, like a hunter stalking prey. This, despite the fact that the dispatcher told him not to do so. Martin was not engaged in any obvious criminal activity. Zimmerman also used a racial epithet on the tape.

The cops completely bungled this as well. They did a background check on Martin and checked the body for drugs and alcohol. They also held the body for three days without informing the family. Zimmerman was shortly questioned and released. At the very least this stinks of bias.

Some have claimed that Zimmerman did not follow Martin, that he simply got out of his car to check the street sign to see where he was, and that as he was returning to his car, Martin hit him from behind.

That's a lie.

First of all, Zimmerman lived in the complex. He'd been a (self-appointed) neighborhood watch, calling police over 40 times in the year prior to this event. He knew his neighborhood and knew it well. In his call to police about Martin, he was giving pretty detailed information on his location and instructions to the police on how to get to where he was and at no point after exiting his vehicle did he tell the dispatcher he was checking to see what street he was on --- that is where he admits he's following Martin, and then shortly after says Martin is running away. And no further calls to police that he'd been attacked by Martin.

Now take a look at the photos where the confrontation/shooting took place. Between two long rows of apartments/townhomes (the back of the buildings facing each other) in a grassy courtyard with a sidewalk running down the middle. No road. No street signs. Photos of several chunks of turf disturbed where the fight occurred, but no evidence of tire tracks (it had been raining hard that evening, from reports). In calls from residents of the complex who were reporting the incident, when asked to describe what they saw and heard, at no point does anyone mention a vehicle in the courtyard.

So his report to police that this started when Martin attacked him as he was re-entering his vehicle is a lie.

 

[PredFan]

This is a difficult case. I have been hearing about it for weeks (I live in Orlando, about 5 miles south of Sanford). Zimmerman pursued the kid, which he should not have done, but that doesn't mean the kid didn't attack him as he said he did. I wasn't there, I will wait until the investigation is completed and any trial has reached a verdict.

It's funny that the lynch mob is calling for his arrest as if we live in a country that arrests first and then determines if a crime has been committed later.

If they find him guilty of murder, put him in the chair.

 

[PredFan]

This is the most crucial part of the exchange. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, like a hunter stalking prey. This, despite the fact that the dispatcher told him not to do so. Martin was not engaged in any obvious criminal activity. Zimmerman also used a racial epithet on the tape.

The cops completely bungled this as well. They did a background check on Martin and checked the body for drugs and alcohol. They also held the body for three days without informing the family. Zimmerman was shortly questioned and released. At the very least this stinks of bias.

Some have claimed that Zimmerman did not follow Martin, that he simply got out of his car to check the street sign to see where he was, and that as he was returning to his car, Martin hit him from behind.

That's a lie.

First of all, Zimmerman lived in the complex. He'd been a (self-appointed) neighborhood watch, calling police over 40 times in the year prior to this event. He knew his neighborhood and knew it well. In his call to police about Martin, he was giving pretty detailed information on his location and instructions to the police on how to get to where he was and at no point after exiting his vehicle did he tell the dispatcher he was checking to see what street he was on --- that is where he admits he's following Martin, and then shortly after says Martin is running away. And no further calls to police that he'd been attacked by Martin.

Now take a look at the photos where the confrontation/shooting took place. Between two long rows of apartments/townhomes (the back of the buildings facing each other) in a grassy courtyard with a sidewalk running down the middle. No road. No street signs. Photos of several chunks of turf disturbed where the fight occurred, but no evidence of tire tracks (it had been raining hard that evening, from reports). In calls from residents of the complex who were reporting the incident, when asked to describe what they saw and heard, at no point does anyone mention a vehicle in the courtyard.

So his report to police that this started when Martin attacked him as he was re-entering his vehicle is a lie.

This is hilarious. Got the lotto numbers oh omniscient one? You who knows all and sees all?

 

[Emma]

I've seen no evidence to say he was running away.

You're making this shit up.

Zimmerman: "Shit, he's running."

Dispatcher: "He's running? Which way is he running?"

Zimmerman: "Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood."

Dispatcher: "Which entrance is it that he's heading towards?"

Zimmerman: "The back entrance ... fucking .... "

Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"

Zimmerman: "Yeah."

 

[Emma]

This is the most crucial part of the exchange. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, like a hunter stalking prey. This, despite the fact that the dispatcher told him not to do so. Martin was not engaged in any obvious criminal activity. Zimmerman also used a racial epithet on the tape.

The cops completely bungled this as well. They did a background check on Martin and checked the body for drugs and alcohol. They also held the body for three days without informing the family. Zimmerman was shortly questioned and released. At the very least this stinks of bias.

Some have claimed that Zimmerman did not follow Martin, that he simply got out of his car to check the street sign to see where he was, and that as he was returning to his car, Martin hit him from behind.

That's a lie.

First of all, Zimmerman lived in the complex. He'd been a (self-appointed) neighborhood watch, calling police over 40 times in the year prior to this event. He knew his neighborhood and knew it well. In his call to police about Martin, he was giving pretty detailed information on his location and instructions to the police on how to get to where he was and at no point after exiting his vehicle did he tell the dispatcher he was checking to see what street he was on --- that is where he admits he's following Martin, and then shortly after says Martin is running away. And no further calls to police that he'd been attacked by Martin.

Now take a look at the photos where the confrontation/shooting took place. Between two long rows of apartments/townhomes (the back of the buildings facing each other) in a grassy courtyard with a sidewalk running down the middle. No road. No street signs. Photos of several chunks of turf disturbed where the fight occurred, but no evidence of tire tracks (it had been raining hard that evening, from reports). In calls from residents of the complex who were reporting the incident, when asked to describe what they saw and heard, at no point does anyone mention a vehicle in the courtyard.

So his report to police that this started when Martin attacked him as he was re-entering his vehicle is a lie.

This is hilarious. Got the lotto numbers oh omniscient one? You who knows all and sees all?

Nah. Just proof that Zimmerman's statement is a lie that this occurred when he was attacked from behind as he entered his vehicle.

 

[Emma]

Has anyone seen a map of this complex?