Who gets to decide when and how we die?

[sparky]

You really want to know how the majority of folks die in the USofA?

They OD

And that's if you're lucky......

~S~

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

As a lifelong Christian I am at direct odds with carsomy.

And yet suicide is a sin that utterly damns you in Christianity, yet here I sit, an agnostic / atheist, arguing the point with you.

Nonetheless, you don’t kill someone just because they’re going to die.

If they want to die, they can do it just fine on their own.

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

True. But if one wants to end their suffering what you are BEGGING for is for that person to feel more pain. So at that point it's all on you.

You’re saying by forbidding murdering the suffering, we DESIRE suffering?

Yeah, no, go fuck yourself.

Benefit of the doubt and politeness just left the building, you motherfucker, you.

 

[sparky]

And yet suicide is a sin that utterly damns you in Christianity, yet here I sit, an agnostic / atheist, arguing the point with you.

and what does jesus say when one put's one's dog down +6?
~S~

 

[initforme]

You’re saying by forbidding murdering the suffering, we DESIRE suffering?

Yeah, no, go fuck yourself.

Benefit of the doubt and politeness just left the building, you motherfucker, you.

Hit a nerve did I?

 

[initforme]

There comes a point where reality determines no more can be done. It is hard to accept. But at THAT particular point it is the PATIENTS call. Nobody else's. If the one who is suffering wants that suffering to end, then it should be ended. It's not ideal but it is the way it should be

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

Hit a nerve did I?

Congratulations, you conspicuously being a malicious asshole was noticed.

 

[initforme]

Congratulations, you conspicuously being a malicious asshole was noticed.

The reality of life is never pleasant. But the one person in charge of ones life is that person. It should proceed or end with that person. Their wishes supercede everything and everyone.

 

[initforme]

Being called names is a badge of courage.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Primum non nocere does not mean never do any harm, and it is not part of the Hippocratic Oath, but it is the central tenet of medical ethics.

I want to respond to whatever text you quoted - I do not know the source, but it is wrong.

Primum non nocere does not mean never do any harm, and it is not part of the Hippocratic Oath, but it is the central tenet of medical ethics.

You are not allowed to intentionally harm your patients unless the harm you are doing is intended to help the patient and the help you are providing is plausible (the care is not futile). Appendectomy to relieve appendicitis is harmful but it will help the patient long term and is very unlikely to cause more harm than good (other than the general low risk of all surgery and all anesthesia).

Chemotherapy, another example, it will make you miserable and sick and tired - but the cancer will kill you dead. If there is a decent chance the chemo will save or extend the patient’s life, or increase the quality of life they have left, then the harm is worthwhile.

Contrast this with just intentionally killing your own patient. You have no good intentions and the harm you are inflicting is objectively worse than whatever you are treating, and you know it. This is a premeditated homicide, a lethal attack against your fellow human being, the same as any other random violent human grabbing a shotgun and shooting a random innocent human.

All explained in the authoritative source I provided. Here's the meaty part:

While some medical schools ask their graduates to abide by the Hippocratic Oath, others use a different pledge — or none at all. And in fact, although "first, do no harm" is attributed to the ancient Greek physician Hippocrates, it isn’t a part of the Hippocratic Oath at all. It is actually from another of his works called Of the Epidemics.

So why the confusion?​

Admittedly, there is similar language found in both places. For example, here’s a line from one translation of the Hippocratic Oath:

"I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous."

Yes, the pledger commits to avoiding harm, but there’s nothing about making it a top priority. Meanwhile, Of the Epidemics says

"The physician must be able to tell the antecedents, know the present, and foretell the future — must mediate these things, and have two special objects in view with regard to disease, namely, to do good or to do no harm."

People who openly express that they "just want to die" or are "just waiting to die" month after month, as many, many do near the end, have obviously experienced extreme difficulty, whether just considering or actually, trying to do away with themselves. They seek companionship and approval at a minimum, if not physical assistance. Drugs and "deliberate killing" stray far from the reality. No one sane seeks to help people kill themselves. We all have a natural will to live and fear of death. But when they tell you straight out, month after month, there's no longer any reason to disbelieve them.

You want to help them achieve peace. When you have sole power of attorney, you can forget all the bullshit. It's you, not the doctors or nurses, who will be held legally responsible for physically administering the drugs. You're responsible for providing meals, reading, exercise, massage, bathing,.. even when none that makes a damned bit of difference any more. So you are encouraged to supply more morphine. They can't do it themselves because it's all gotten too complicated,.. trying to supply required oxygen at the same time for instance. They want their nose and mouth clear to talk, breath normally, and eat even when they can no longer do either. So they tend to just rip all that shit off the moment they can't see you. And they don't just die of neglect then. They continue to just suffer, only more. If you still promote needless suffering over final rest, you're the demonic asshole.

 

[Grumblenuts]

If they want to die, they can do it just fine on their own.

 

[Grumblenuts]

You really want to know how the majority of folks die in the USofA?

They OD

And that's if you're lucky......

~S~

Top three:

• Heart disease: 696,962
• Cancer: 602,350
• COVID-19: 350,831

But yeah, pain killers in the end.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Top three:

• Heart disease: 696,962
• Cancer: 602,350
• COVID-19: 350,831

But yeah, pain killers in the end.

Abortion—well over a million.

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

People who openly express that they "just want to die" or are "just waiting to die" month after month, as many, many do near the end, have obviously experienced extreme difficulty, whether just considering or actually, trying to do away with themselves. They seek companionship and approval at a minimum, if not physical assistance. Drugs and "deliberate killing" stray far from the reality. No one sane seeks to help people kill themselves. We all have a natural will to live and fear of death. But when they tell you straight out, month after month, there's no longer any reason to disbelieve them.

Great. If they want to die badly enough, they can die. They don't need help with that.

You want to help them achieve peace. When you have sole power of attorney, you can forget all the bullshit. It's you, not the doctors or nurses, who will be held legally responsible for physically administering the drugs.

You're talking about being a palliative care primary caregiver now. Okay. Well, it stands to reason that yeah, the MPOA / custodial caregiver should take care of that patient at home. Which obviously includes - don't murder them. That should go without saying. It is distressing that it seems it needs to be said.

You're responsible for providing meals, reading, exercise, massage, bathing,.. even when none that makes a damned bit of difference any more.

It's about their comfort and well-being. If they want to starve and dehydrate to death they can do that, I suppose, but they're alive, so meals are kind of necessary for that whole living thing, and bathing, moving, and turning prevent some things they will find very uncomfortable or distressing.

So you are encouraged to supply more morphine.

Yeah, morphine palliates pain or labored breathing at end of life. It's good for that.

They can't do it themselves because it's all gotten too complicated,.. trying to supply required oxygen at the same time for instance. They want their nose and mouth clear to talk, breath normally, and eat even when they can no longer do either. So they tend to just rip all that shit off the moment they can't see you. And they don't just die of neglect then. They continue to just suffer, only more.

You have to respect patient autonomy, really, unless they're dementia. And then of course you try to help them but it's an unrealistic standard to expect any caregiver to 100% counter the random impulses of a dementia patient, like taking out the nasal cannula they need to survive.

If you still promote needless suffering over final rest, you're the demonic asshole.

I mean, how's about this - if you think deliberately murdering and not taking care of palliative patients is appropriate, and those who don't want to murder the old and sick are "demonic" or "assholes," then you are someone who should probably die so you don't suffer your own derangement further and so no one else has to suffer hearing it... but still no one else needs to murder you for you to shuffle off this mortal coil.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I mean, how's about this - if you think deliberately murdering and not taking care of palliative patients is appropriate, and those who don't want to murder the old and sick are "demonic" or "assholes," then you are someone who should probably die so you don't suffer your own derangement further and so no one else has to suffer hearing it... but still no one else needs to murder you for you to shuffle off this mortal coil.

Yeah, thanks for reviewing pretty much everything I already said prior with added technical specificity, but sorry, that conclusion still doesn't follow. Yes, my mom suffered what was sometimes attributed to Alzheimer's, more often dementia. Both remain very common. What about it? You're clearly familiar with the meaning of "palliative care" yet still offer the care provider nothing. Amazing. Doesn't matter. The moment administering a bit more results in death, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!! THAT'S FUCKING MURDER!!!

"Deliberate," no less. No accidents or involuntary manslaughters for you!
Nope, people clearly never need any help dying.
Then, to cap it off, you suggest I kill myself.
Wow. Such an asshole! What a jerk!

those who don't want to murder the old and sick are "demonic" or "assholes,"

"Demonic"
"asshole"
Don't like what you reap? Don't sow it. Morons.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Quick review:
You offer the doctor nothing√
You offer the patient nothing√
You offer the caregiver nothing√
Even after being informed that the recommended "palliative care" often isn't enough√
You offer the family, community, and loved ones nothing√
You offer nothing√
Just suffer and die√

What Does it Mean to be a Christian? - Compassion International

What does it mean to behave like Christ? What does it mean to have a Christian heart? What does it look like to love others as Jesus loves us?

www.compassion.com

Death With Dignity vs. God's Plan (September 2002)

Twenty-five years ago I personally experienced the anguish a terminally ill person and family endures when my second wife became ill with cancer. While in the shadow of death, her

ffrf.org

 

[SweetSue92]

Our culture:

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die

If you can't eat, drink and be merry, off yourself. Or have the doctor do it.

Jesus can come back any day now. Today would not be too soon.

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Whut?

.


I know. Word salad with a side of bullshit vinaigrette.


.

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Quick review:
You offer the doctor nothing√
You offer the patient nothing√
You offer the caregiver nothing√
Even after being informed that the recommended "palliative care" often isn't enough√
You offer the family, community, and loved ones nothing√
You offer nothing√
Just suffer and die√

What Does it Mean to be a Christian? - Compassion International

What does it mean to behave like Christ? What does it mean to have a Christian heart? What does it look like to love others as Jesus loves us?

www.compassion.com

Death With Dignity vs. God's Plan (September 2002)

Twenty-five years ago I personally experienced the anguish a terminally ill person and family endures when my second wife became ill with cancer. While in the shadow of death, her

ffrf.org

.


Please refer to post #138.


.

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Our culture:

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die

If you can't eat, drink and be merry, off yourself. Or have the doctor do it.

Jesus can come back any day now. Today would not be too soon.

.


Tells you who's running the show.

The good part is that there are still folks who know that he only has the power that humans willingly give him.


.