Who is responsible for YOU?

[Bern80]

No. Not at all. People love to talk about who earned what and who didn't. It's not all about that. Some people are just in a better position. That's just the way it is. The playing field is not level. I'm not advocating that it should or could ever be leveled but failure to acknowledge the fact is ignorant. Two men that offer the exact same effort and intelligence do not end up in the same place. There are a ton of factors from pure luck, to where you started from that play in. Attempting to reduce it to any kind of effort = success formula is hog wash.

It is equally hogwash to believe effort has little or nothing to do with it. if people start thinking that and behaving as such we are fucked.

Again, none of us can change where are starting points in life, some will have it better, some will have it worse. The outcomes are what you control. To use your starting point as an excuse to not put forth effort or use as a crutch as to why you are owed something is an excuse. I dont' care how many times I have to say this. If you don't acknowledge your roll in the opportunites you have and will have your opprtunities will not improve.

I absolutely ackowledge effort. It is one of the keys, but certainly not the turn key. There are a ton of factors. Effort will never equal any constant. Some get more for their effort. Some get less. And the reasons are all over the board. If you become aware of this it will certainly affect your effort.

then I have to ask what are these fatalistic events that happen to people so frequently that they override ones efforts? I can come with a small handful, like major illness or death of a bread winner. What are these....'things' that everyone is so powerless against?

 

[Peejay]

It is equally hogwash to believe effort has little or nothing to do with it. if people start thinking that and behaving as such we are fucked.

Again, none of us can change where are starting points in life, some will have it better, some will have it worse. The outcomes are what you control. To use your starting point as an excuse to not put forth effort or use as a crutch as to why you are owed something is an excuse. I dont' care how many times I have to say this. If you don't acknowledge your roll in the opportunites you have and will have your opprtunities will not improve.

I absolutely ackowledge effort. It is one of the keys, but certainly not the turn key. There are a ton of factors. Effort will never equal any constant. Some get more for their effort. Some get less. And the reasons are all over the board. If you become aware of this it will certainly affect your effort.

then I have to ask what are these fatalistic events that happen to people so frequently that they override ones efforts? I can come with a small handful, like major illness or death of a bread winner. What are these....'things' that everyone is so powerless against?

Perhaps you were orphaned and adopted by poor dirt farmers. But I think I already covered that. Not that you can't move forward but disregrding your starting point, your environment, your access to money, employment, food, shelter and support for the formative years of your life stacks probability of less reward for more effort. Life isn't fair. If you haven't figured that out, bless your heart.

 

[necritan]

To answer your original question....black and white as it is......me myself and I.

We arent as advanced as the extreme left want you to try to be.....at no point should the government be responsible for us....the government is us. I am not responsible for my neigbors actions....nor is he responsible for mine.

 

[Bern80]

I absolutely ackowledge effort. It is one of the keys, but certainly not the turn key. There are a ton of factors. Effort will never equal any constant. Some get more for their effort. Some get less. And the reasons are all over the board. If you become aware of this it will certainly affect your effort.

then I have to ask what are these fatalistic events that happen to people so frequently that they override ones efforts? I can come with a small handful, like major illness or death of a bread winner. What are these....'things' that everyone is so powerless against?

Perhaps you were orphaned and adopted by poor dirt farmers. But I think I already covered that. Not that you can't move forward but disregrding your starting point, your environment, your access to money, employment, food, shelter and support for the formative years of your life stacks probability of less reward for more effort. Life isn't fair. If you haven't figured that out, bless your heart.

But I think that's exactley what many successful do. They don't disregard their circumstances per se as the will effect decisions they make, they just don't let them get in the way of a goal. As Mr. Stein alluded to you can bemoan how bad things are for you till the cows come home and you can wait for government to give you a helping hand Unfortunately there are fewer more sure fire ways to accomplish very little. Individual circumstances are a factor in as much as they determine the effort one will have to put forth to attain goals. YOU, the individual, set those goals. YOU, the individual, decide how motivated you are to reach them. No matter what position you find yourself in, good or bad, dwelling on those circumstances is a waste of time. They may change the course of the trip you have to make through life, but it's still up to you how much you want to put into the journey.

 

[Care4all]

the thing is bern, who is really waiting for the government to bail them out, other than the Banks, Mortgage brokers, and mega Insurance Companies.

Everyone in their own individual lives are continuing with their individual lives, through good and bad....and doing the best that they can with what they are dealt....

They are not sitting back and waiting for a bailout by our government as Wall Street has and still is.....

They are hoping that this money the gvt is spending with their stimulus part, will help them in the long run, but i think there is much doubt, in this being the case, by most of the public....so the public, continues with their own individual lives and pushes forward, against what is pushing them backwards....it's all we can do.

There are no true expectaions of our government, other than hopfully doing the right thing for the majority of Americans, not just a few...like the poor, or the very wealthiest, but all of us, on the whole that brings our country on to stable footing again....instead of building our country on footings placed in sand.

 

[editec]

Anyway, there is most certainly a point, where it is up to the individual person....but that point still includes the cards they are dealt.

And I think the real argument is to what extent.

Agreed.

Are people in large part the product of their own efforts or mostly a product of their environment?

Are you so daft that you think one size fits all in that equasion? How does one establish the "mostly" value?

Don't you think it depends on the nature of the fate in question?

I have to believe the former because while you may not have control over where you start in life, where you end up is primarily going to depend on you.

Really?

So it doesn't matter if your legs were cut off?

If you really want to be a ballerina, you will be, if but you only have enough WILL?!

You cannot possibly believe that is true.

You may have been born into a wealthy family and sent the best schools (or in the ghetto going to a ghetto school), but only YOU control the effort you are going to put toward studying.

Really? How about if one is dyslexic?

I taught the dsylexic children of multimillionaires, you know? Some of them worked the freakin' asses off. but they still could not read.

Where was their triumph of will, amigo?

Maybe you got hired for a job because of a friend, only YOU can put forth the effort it takes to keep that job.

Or maybe you didn't get hired because someboydy else's friend did.

How much effort does it take to keep the job in that case?

Only you can determine how valuable you choose to be to your employer.

If you're employed.

Maybe your parents lavished you with money or maybe you were dirt poor.
How wisely you handle those financial situations is up to you.

Yes, that is true.

And how the poor wisely manage their fates might look to those who have never been poor, to be very unwise, and vice versa.

Until you're actually in their shoes, you or I cannot REALLY KNOW what is wise for that person, can we?

Other people's lives are like glaciers to us.

We see but a very small part of what exists for them.

The point is people can make all the excuses they want, until they hold themselves accountable nothing is going to change.

Things change whether or not we hold ourselves accountable. Life is change.

One should hold oneself accountable for those things over which one had a measure of control.

One must ALSO hold others accountable for ONLY those things over which those people had a measure of control, too.

And that is what many of us complain about when it comes to the lunatic conceit of many of our "self made" men.

They fail to understand that they do not KNOW what others are dealing with.

They make snap judgements about others based on their own prejudices.

And it is that LACK of understanding(and lack of sympoathy or outright hostility) for which I find myself holding many of you self-proclaiming self made men in utter contempt.

Of course, I am also liberal enough to realize that I was not a coddled pampered scion, so I recognize that their blindness and lack of sympathy and outright hostility might very well be their fates, too.

I honestly cannot know what makes some people (in my opinion) the assholes they appear to be.

Given that I know that we are born with certain mental predispositions, perhaps their lack of sympathy, their outrighthostility, might be beyond their ability to control.

Shit happens...to all of us, regardless of our financial circumstances.

Few of the scions I've known were truly happy people.

 

[Bern80]

Really?

So it doesn't matter if your legs were cut off?

If you really want to be a ballerina, you will be, if but you only have enough WILL?!

You cannot possibly believe that is true.

Really? How about if one is dyslexic?

I taught the dsylexic children of multimillionaires, you know? Some of them worked the freakin' asses off. but they still could not read.

Where was their triumph of will, amigo?

I believe we have talked before about the ridiculousness of using extreme rare examples and believing it makes your point valid. Yes, there are certain things that just aren't in the cards given certain extreme circumstances. But perhaps their triumph of will is functioning despite their handicap. But asanine things like this really aren't what we have been talking about in terms personal responsibility, is it?

Or maybe you didn't get hired because someboydy else's friend did.

How much effort does it take to keep the job in that case?

You really do have an excuse for everything don't you. So FUCKING what if that happened? Move on. Put your efforts toward finding another job.

And how the poor wisely manage their fates might look to those who have never been poor, to be very unwise, and vice versa.

Until you're actually in their shoes, you or I cannot REALLY KNOW what is wise for that person, can we?

i don't know if this is true for you or not, but it is one place where libs and conservatives differ. Conservatives beleive in absolute truths. At least some things, regardless of who does them and their circumstances, are right or wrong.

Yes you can know what is wise for a person, because again their are absolute truths. It isn't me, or anyone else, who decideds whether some choice is wise or not. It either is or it isn't based on their circumstances. Making the decision (conciously or not) to have a child as a single, low income mother, is not a wise a decision. I don't need to be in someone's shoes to know that.

Things change whether or not we hold ourselves accountable. Life is change.

Yes life does change around us, how that is dealt with is up to you. Again circumstances don't make the man, they reveal him.

One should hold oneself accountable for those things over which one had a measure of control.

One must ALSO hold others accountable for ONLY those things over which those people had a measure of control, too.

Again we simply differ on what that measure of control is. So let's get specifc. You do what you're good at and pile on the excuses. And we will see how many of those situations people really have or had no control over.

And that is what many of us complain about when it comes to the lunatic conceit of many of our "self made" men.

They fail to understand that they do not KNOW what others are dealing with.

They make snap judgements about others based on their own prejudices.

And it is that LACK of understanding(and lack of sympoathy or outright hostility) for which I find myself holding many of you self-proclaiming self made men in utter contempt.

I really never have observed this be true. For myself I have been quite clear over who I have and dont' have sympathy for. I have sympathy for people that are true victims (your dsylexics and parapalegics). I don't have sympathy for people that complain about their position and refuse to acknowledge their ownership in that.

You claim we can't assume people circumstances and the choices surrounding them, but that is exactley what you have done throughout this thread. You have claimed victim status for all kinds of people assuming they have no responsbility at all for it.

Of course, I am also liberal enough to realize that I was not a coddled pampered scion, so I recognize that their blindness and lack of sympathy and outright hostility might very well be their fates, too.

I honestly cannot know what makes some people (in my opinion) the assholes they appear to be.

I think your opinion of peopl of assholes are really people that have a higher level of expectation of their fellow man (and themselves) than you do. We aren't talking about your dsylexics or your extreme cases. We are talking about our expectations of able bodied people. We are talking about people who are in circumstances that they could have avoided.

In pure problem solving terms it is completely pointless to claim victim status first. It is wiser to do a personal inventory FIRST and ask yourself, in what ways have I contributed to this. If the honest answer is nothing, fine, but that isnt' going to be true for most people. How can you expect to solve a problem if you automatically skip over a potential reason you're in that problem to begin with?

Shit happens...to all of us, regardless of our financial circumstances.

But the steps YOU take will determine how well you are able to whether the shit storm. There is no better example than the economic crisis. Many people are going to come out just fine because they took the time wisely manage their finances. My parents CHOSE to take out a 15 year mortgage when they built a new house instead of a 30, because my Dad CHOSE to run his buiness in such a way that he could afford to do so. He retired this past December at 57 IN THIS ECONOMY. The only way he could have done that is through a very concious management of huis business and finances over the years. That's what some people refuse to look at is how decisions they made long ago determined where they are now. My dad wouldn't have been able to retire at 57, in part if hadn't decided to become a Veternarian and operate his own practice at 17.

 

[Yukon]

Judah,

Pray tell my child but of what faith do you subscribe?

 

[Bern80]

Judah,

Pray tell my child but of what faith do you subscribe?

I don't know who you're calling Judah, but I don't sbuscribe to any particular religion or faith. Throws the pretext of the asanine argument you were going to make out the window, doesn't it.

 

[AllieBaba]

And so long as people continue to be able to move upwards, that's all that matters.

It's when you start smacking them down and not allowing them to move at all that you get into trouble.

No. Not at all. People love to talk about who earned what and who didn't. It's not all about that. Some people are just in a better position. That's just the way it is. The playing field is not level. I'm not advocating that it should or could ever be leveled but failure to acknowledge the fact is ignorant. Two men that offer the exact same effort and intelligence do not end up in the same place. There are a ton of factors from pure luck, to where you started from that play in. Attempting to reduce it to any kind of effort = success formula is hog wash.

If that were true, my sister wouldn't be in the position she is today, and neither would my brothers and I.

In other words, you're full of shit.

 

[AllieBaba]

I absolutely ackowledge effort. It is one of the keys, but certainly not the turn key. There are a ton of factors. Effort will never equal any constant. Some get more for their effort. Some get less. And the reasons are all over the board. If you become aware of this it will certainly affect your effort.

then I have to ask what are these fatalistic events that happen to people so frequently that they override ones efforts? I can come with a small handful, like major illness or death of a bread winner. What are these....'things' that everyone is so powerless against?

Perhaps you were orphaned and adopted by poor dirt farmers. But I think I already covered that. Not that you can't move forward but disregrding your starting point, your environment, your access to money, employment, food, shelter and support for the formative years of your life stacks probability of less reward for more effort. Life isn't fair. If you haven't figured that out, bless your heart.

You live in a fantasy world, and I suspect it's because you are so removed from the real world yourself that you just don't know what life is about.

For one thing, being adopted usually is equated with success, not failure. I haven't heard of many "poor dirt farmers" existing at this point, much less that imaginary population adopting (and failing in the raising of) orphan children.

My family, the family of my best friend and I can't even begin to count how many of those I am aquainted with come from very, VERY humble roots. Our juvenile director's stepfather was offed in a prison fight. My father was an alcoholic, and we were about as poor as poor gets. My best friend didn't have a father in the picture at all, was one of 6 kids, and her mother worked as a cook. We all are successful, well adjusted folks, as is my sister and my brothers, and our kids.

All these people started at the bottom of the bottom. We were high risk kids, high risk teens, high risk adults, even. But we were all motivated by a desire to learn, to move up in the world, to provide for our families in a better way than we were provided in.

I bought into the bs you're spewing for about 20 years, then realized, hey, my sister never bought into it...and she's sitting in a mansion on the hill. So I decided screw this and started setting goals..and guess what? Within a year I had achieved what I've wanted for that entire 20 year span, including location.

When people realize they can do it, they DO do it. It's idiots like yourself constantly telling them they can't pull themselves up that mires them down.

 

[Yukon]

"...My family, the family of my best friend and I can't even begin to count how many of those I am aquainted with come from very, VERY humble roots. Our juvenile director's stepfather was offed in a prison fight. My father was an alcoholic, and we were about as poor as poor gets. My best friend didn't have a father in the picture at all, was one of 6 kids, and her mother worked as a cook. We all are successful, well adjusted folks, as is my sister and my brothers, and our kids.

All these people started at the bottom of the bottom. We were high risk kids, high risk teens, high risk adults, even. But we were all motivated by a desire to learn, to move up in the world, to provide for our families in a better way than we were provided in..."

Allie,

Please stop it ! You're breaking my heart, reducing me to tears. Stop it !

 

[Bern80]

"...My family, the family of my best friend and I can't even begin to count how many of those I am aquainted with come from very, VERY humble roots. Our juvenile director's stepfather was offed in a prison fight. My father was an alcoholic, and we were about as poor as poor gets. My best friend didn't have a father in the picture at all, was one of 6 kids, and her mother worked as a cook. We all are successful, well adjusted folks, as is my sister and my brothers, and our kids.

All these people started at the bottom of the bottom. We were high risk kids, high risk teens, high risk adults, even. But we were all motivated by a desire to learn, to move up in the world, to provide for our families in a better way than we were provided in..."

Allie,

Please stop it ! You're breaking my heart, reducing me to tears. Stop it !

It is noted that in your brief time here you have as yet been unable to form an even remotely constructive or intelligent argument to anything at all.

 

[Peejay]

You live in a fantasy world, and I suspect it's because you are so removed from the real world yourself that you just don't know what life is about.

Your suspicions would be wrong. I am pretty well immersed in a real world. As for the meaning of life, do tell.

For one thing, being adopted usually is equated with success, not failure. I haven't heard of many "poor dirt farmers" existing at this point, much less that imaginary population adopting (and failing in the raising of) orphan children.

My Dad was adopted by these poor dirt farmers, in 1947. They didn't exactly fail on purpose, they both died before he was an adult. My mom was actually born to poor dirt farmers. Her dad died when she was barely old enough to remember. I am a couple generations away from that on both sides. I can't help but wonder where you are from.

My family, the family of my best friend and I can't even begin to count how many of those I am aquainted with come from very, VERY humble roots. Our juvenile director's stepfather was offed in a prison fight. My father was an alcoholic, and we were about as poor as poor gets. My best friend didn't have a father in the picture at all, was one of 6 kids, and her mother worked as a cook. We all are successful, well adjusted folks, as is my sister and my brothers, and our kids.

Excellent.

I bought into the bs you're spewing for about 20 years, then realized, hey, my sister never bought into it...and she's sitting in a mansion on the hill. So I decided screw this and started setting goals..and guess what? Within a year I had achieved what I've wanted for that entire 20 year span, including location.

When people realize they can do it, they DO do it. It's idiots like yourself constantly telling them they can't pull themselves up that mires them down.

So, you let your circumstances hold you back for 20 years, yet you fail to acknowledge that it happens. Interesting.

I absolutely don't say that people can't pull themselves up. Fact is, you MUST pull yourself from circumstances. But you seem to disregard what sooooo many people work sooooo hard for, to give their kids a head start on life. You seem to think that doesn't count for much.

 

[KittenKoder]

Peejay ... I use to think like you .... until I was actually in a bad position, seriously bad position, in life. Homeless ... lots of medical problems ... forced to live off the government. The difference between me and those who stay that way all their lives .... I WANTED to get out of it. Ever hear the phrase "where there's a will, there's a way" ... that's what success is measured by, how far you can get with what you've got, but you are measuring it only by how much money you have. Even now, I am not rich, far from wealthy ... but I am comfortable and happier than I was a few years ago. Anyone can get anywhere, there is no excuse to blame others for your own misfortunes, because as long as you waste time blaming you are not doing anything to fix it.

 

[Peejay]

Peejay ... I use to think like you .... until I was actually in a bad position, seriously bad position, in life. Homeless ... lots of medical problems ... forced to live off the government. The difference between me and those who stay that way all their lives .... I WANTED to get out of it. Ever hear the phrase "where there's a will, there's a way" ... that's what success is measured by, how far you can get with what you've got, but you are measuring it only by how much money you have. Even now, I am not rich, far from wealthy ... but I am comfortable and happier than I was a few years ago. Anyone can get anywhere, there is no excuse to blame others for your own misfortunes, because as long as you waste time blaming you are not doing anything to fix it.

Good for you. Join the club !

So, let me ask you, since you didn't address anything I've said here directly: Parents who work hard, protect and guide their children, pay their way through school, perhaps help them into a nice home, maybe give them some family land, maybe set them up with a good job .......... you understand that this is the norm for many people ?

OTOH, you understand that there are also many people who come from much different circumstances, hardship, abuse, all kinds of misfortune ? They don't get bthe enefits of an all but insured college education, a home, really any sort of security at all. They have to start from scratch.

Now, I'm not blaming, as you put it, I'm not making excuses. I'm just telling you how it is. You do understand that this is how it is ? You understand that some people have an easier way to go in life ?

 

[KittenKoder]

Peejay ... I use to think like you .... until I was actually in a bad position, seriously bad position, in life. Homeless ... lots of medical problems ... forced to live off the government. The difference between me and those who stay that way all their lives .... I WANTED to get out of it. Ever hear the phrase "where there's a will, there's a way" ... that's what success is measured by, how far you can get with what you've got, but you are measuring it only by how much money you have. Even now, I am not rich, far from wealthy ... but I am comfortable and happier than I was a few years ago. Anyone can get anywhere, there is no excuse to blame others for your own misfortunes, because as long as you waste time blaming you are not doing anything to fix it.

Good for you. Join the club !

So, let me ask you, since you didn't address anything I've said here directly: Parents who work hard, protect and guide their children, pay their way through school, perhaps help them into a nice home, maybe give them some family land, maybe set them up with a good job .......... you understand that this is the norm for many people ?

OTOH, you understand that there are also many people who come from much different circumstances, hardship, abuse, all kinds of misfortune ? They don't get bthe enefits of an all but insured college education, a home, really any sort of security at all. They have to start from scratch.

Now, I'm not blaming, as you put it, I'm not making excuses. I'm just telling you how it is. You do understand that this is how it is ? You understand that some people have an easier way to go in life ?

First of all, anyone who gets a job because of family influence isn't worth hiring, period. I don't have a college education (I won't repeat my sentiments on degrees right now), hell, I'm a high school drop out who was happy with my chosen career in restaurants, just because of mental issues was forced out of that career (I just can't be nice to customers anymore). However, you are still measuring success by how much money you earn, this is completely degrading what success means and destroys the reasons for taking pride in it. As my father use to say "work because you want to work, that way no matter what you get paid you earned it." Hell, by your standards I am not successful at all, I am an utter failure ... but I DID succeed, I DID get somewhere, it's not where others may be but it's further than I WAS, it was success. This is why all the heart bleeders are screwing up, they are fooling people into thinking that wealth is success. I know that if I wanted more than I have, I could get it, somehow (legally) because I also know that I have succeeded in getting this far. However, since I don't WANT more I won't get more, even though I have the ability to get more I just don't want it, so it's not going to happen. The truly successful are those who overcome their shortfalls. I have a LOT of issues, medical and psychological (hell, I can't stand most people unless it's online) but still manage to accomplish all my goals. To degrade people who are given a "low hand" by saying they are incapable of doing it themselves is worse than working against them, because you are breaking their will to try, but working against them, you are giving them MORE reason to try and succeed.

 

[Immanuel]

Lord! I pray it is not the government. They've screwed everything else up, I sure as hell don't want them screwing up my life.

Immie

 

[Peejay]

Money ? Well, not exactly, but then again, yeah, to the degree that food and shelter are generally purchased with money. I equate food and shelter with success, the money to get them by default. Can we agree that getting to eat and stay out of the rain equals a degree of success for human beings ? If we can, then surely you understand that when these basic needs are a given for some, they start with a different idea of success ? They start from a different platform ? They don't have to first reach the platform of food and shelter ?

 

[KittenKoder]

Money ? Well, not exactly, but then again, yeah, to the degree that food and shelter are generally purchased with money. I equate food and shelter with success, the money to get them by default. Can we agree that getting to eat and stay out of the rain equals a degree of success for human beings ? If we can, then surely you understand that when these basic needs are a given for some, they start with a different idea of success ? They start from a different platform ? They don't have to first reach the platform of food and shelter ?

You are still making success a measure of financial status. Again this is failing to give what is successful due respect. Food is a need, shelter is a right (you don't NEED it to survive), and both can be achieved without money really, but to get them would still be a success regardless of how but still not the only measure of success. Many who have struggles have these given to them as well, often by family or government, sometimes by friends, and they are incapable of achieving this on their own regardless of how much money they have, so by making those a measure of success you are still degrading what success means and taking away all the value and pride in being successful. The best measure of success is the ability to do what you are capable of better than the average person, which rarely results in you earning much money (and can even get you stuck) but it is no less of a success regardless. As I said, I am successful, and I only average about 700 a month, or 8,400 a year, but I am my own boss, I control my own life, and that is success.