Who is the Aggressor

[toastman]

May Israel continue to attack any convoy carrying weapons headed for Hamas or Hezbollah !

 

[Lipush]

Amen. The IDF will have the victory.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cheers for the IDF.

 

[P F Tinmore]

This is really a pretty simple matter. Even a blind person can see it. While I deplore the actions that have taken place in Syria that still is no reason for Israel to take the military action that it has. If Lebanon or Syria responds to the blatant act of war by Israel then I hope that the world, including the U.S., would support that action. I don't like using this sort of language but recent events force my hand, Israel is acting like a rogue nation which has no respect for the normal relationships that are how nations are suppose to treat each other. Nations have sovereignty over their own air space and Israel constantly violates that, it is like they are thumbing their nose at the community of nations.

What would you have them do exactly? Should they turn a blind eye and act like they don't know what they do know? Should they allow themselves to be killed?

You know as well as I do that neither Syria nor Lebanon were attacked. A transport bringing weapons from a third country to a known terror group was attacked on the soil of those two countries. Another way of looking at it was Syria and Lebanon were knowingly aiding and abetting the arming of terror groups which puts them outside the law and subject to punitive action.

...to a known terror group...

That is merely a political opinion. You cannot attack another country over a political opinion.

 

[MHunterB]

Quote:
...to a known terror group...

"That is merely a political opinion. You cannot attack another country over a political opinion."

Yes? Where's that written????

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be naive!

That is merely a political opinion. You cannot attack another country over a political opinion.

(COMMENT)

Wars are fought all the time based on "political opinion;" as well as economic reasons, national security and religious conviction. The Middle East has all those components.

Such a statement only damages your credibility.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[JakeStarkey]

This is really a pretty simple matter. Even a blind person can see it. While I deplore the actions that have taken place in Syria that still is no reason for Israel to take the military action that it has. If Lebanon or Syria responds to the blatant act of war by Israel then I hope that the world, including the U.S., would support that action. I don't like using this sort of language but recent events force my hand, Israel is acting like a rogue nation which has no respect for the normal relationships that are how nations are suppose to treat each other. Nations have sovereignty over their own air space and Israel constantly violates that, it is like they are thumbing their nose at the community of nations.

What would you have them do exactly? Should they turn a blind eye and act like they don't know what they do know? Should they allow themselves to be killed?

You know as well as I do that neither Syria nor Lebanon were attacked. A transport bringing weapons from a third country to a known terror group was attacked on the soil of those two countries. Another way of looking at it was Syria and Lebanon were knowingly aiding and abetting the arming of terror groups which puts them outside the law and subject to punitive action.

...to a known terror group...

That is merely a political opinion. You cannot attack another country over a political opinion.

Your jihadist freaks do over philosophy, politics, and religious lunacy. IDF fighter planes prevented a much larger casualty list among the civilians by getting the weapons on the road instead of having to kill them inside heavily populated regions.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be naive!

That is merely a political opinion. You cannot attack another country over a political opinion.

(COMMENT)

Wars are fought all the time based on "political opinion;" as well as economic reasons, national security and religious conviction. The Middle East has all those components.

Such a statement only damages your credibility.

Most Respectfully,
R

It is a mere statement of fact. Iran does not consider Hezbollah to be terrorists. Nor does Syria or Lebanon. I don't think the UN or the EU does either. Few countries do.

It is just a political name calling thing.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Then the names don't matter, the actions do. And good for the IDF and boo to the jihadists.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be naive!

That is merely a political opinion. You cannot attack another country over a political opinion.

(COMMENT)

Wars are fought all the time based on "political opinion;" as well as economic reasons, national security and religious conviction. The Middle East has all those components.

Such a statement only damages your credibility.

Most Respectfully,
R

It is a mere statement of fact. Iran does not consider Hezbollah to be terrorists. Nor does Syria or Lebanon. I don't think the UN or the EU does either. Few countries do.

It is just a political name calling thing.

Hezbollah ain't terrorists, Hamas ain't terrorists,Al Quaida ain't terrorists,so let's just pretend the Eskimos are the terrorists. Right, Tinmore?

BBC News - White House warns Syria over 'weapons to Hezbollah'

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be naive!


(COMMENT)

Wars are fought all the time based on "political opinion;" as well as economic reasons, national security and religious conviction. The Middle East has all those components.

Such a statement only damages your credibility.

Most Respectfully,
R

It is a mere statement of fact. Iran does not consider Hezbollah to be terrorists. Nor does Syria or Lebanon. I don't think the UN or the EU does either. Few countries do.

It is just a political name calling thing.

Hezbollah ain't terrorists, Hamas ain't terrorists,Al Quaida ain't terrorists,so let's just pretend the Eskimos are the terrorists. Right, Tinmore?

BBC News - White House warns Syria over 'weapons to Hezbollah'

I never mentioned Al Quaida.

BTW, the only terrorists mentioned were those who are supported by the US.

 

[member]

PATRICK:

"This is really a pretty simple matter."

a "simple matter ?"

"Even a blind person can see it.

While I deplore the actions that have taken place in Syria that still is no reason for Israel to take the military action that it has. . ."

Patrick too, same ole, same ole.


"An Israeli air attack staged in Syria this week may be a sign of things to come. The airstrike is part of an Israeli strategy known to military planners as "the policy of prevention," or the "war between wars."

I'm sure they have their reasons. It is very distressing to have to hear/read about 'airstrikes' in general, ANYWHERE. i'm 100% sure israel would rather get-together with whomever they're at odds with. . .and 'discuss/settle' things in a civilized way. . .

. . .rather than go the 'airstrike' route.

...if so, I hope they don't miss any of 'em

 

[Hossfly]

It is a mere statement of fact. Iran does not consider Hezbollah to be terrorists. Nor does Syria or Lebanon. I don't think the UN or the EU does either. Few countries do.

It is just a political name calling thing.

Hezbollah ain't terrorists, Hamas ain't terrorists,Al Quaida ain't terrorists,so let's just pretend the Eskimos are the terrorists. Right, Tinmore?

BBC News - White House warns Syria over 'weapons to Hezbollah'

I never mentioned Al Quaida.

BTW, the only terrorists mentioned were those who are supported by the US.

Go eat your pablum and don't forget to take your Geritol, Grampa.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

(PREFACE)

BEIRUT — Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite political and militant group, has ramped up its support for the Syrian government, sending in military advisers to aid in the bloody struggle against the opposition, U.S. and Lebanese government officials say.
SOURCE: Hezbollah increases support for Syrian regime, U.S. and Lebanese officials say - Washington Post

Hezbollah, a close ally of Iran and Syria, said the attack unveiled a "conspiracy against Damascus and our Arab and Muslim people," according to the website of Hezbollah's Al-Manar TV.

Hezbollah and Israel fought a monthlong war in 2006 that the Lebanese Shiite group hailed as a victory, a characterization denied by Israel. Since then, Hezbollah is widely believed to have bolstered its arsenal and fighting capabilities, receiving armaments, as well as training, from Iran, its longtime benefactor. Syria has served as a corridor for Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah, say Western and Israeli authorities.
SOURCE: Allies of Syria condemn reported Israeli attack - latimes.com

I think, you are correct.

It is a mere statement of fact. Iran does not consider Hezbollah to be terrorists. Nor does Syria or Lebanon. I don't think the UN or the EU does either. Few countries do.

It is just a political name calling thing.

(COMMENT)

Currently Hezbollah and what is known as the Hezbollah External Security Organisation are allied with the Assad Regime (Syria), the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps - Quds Force (Iran), Hamas, Islamic Action in Iraq, Iraq (supporting Iranian weapons shipments overflights), Islamic Movement for Change, and of course the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ). I also see that Hezbollah is not opposed by the EU or Russia (Allied with Assad). And Lebanon, the home of Hezbollah, harbored Lebanese terrorists involved in the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847 and in the abduction, torture, and murder of hostages from 1984 to 1991.

Yes, I agree, your consortium does not consider "Hezbollah" to be a terrorist organization. But then, I wouldn't consider that list a sterling example of law abiding elements.

Is it name calling? Or an objective description, based on the goals and objectives, the past history of its actions, and the scope and nature of its activities --- even to the support of the Assad Regime (currently under siege by the general population). And Lebanon is another one of those countries that shouldn't throw stones. It was a country invented by the Allied Powers and carved-out of the French Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

(PREFACE)

BEIRUT — Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite political and militant group, has ramped up its support for the Syrian government, sending in military advisers to aid in the bloody struggle against the opposition, U.S. and Lebanese government officials say.
SOURCE: Hezbollah increases support for Syrian regime, U.S. and Lebanese officials say - Washington Post

Hezbollah, a close ally of Iran and Syria, said the attack unveiled a "conspiracy against Damascus and our Arab and Muslim people," according to the website of Hezbollah's Al-Manar TV.



I think, you are correct.

It is a mere statement of fact. Iran does not consider Hezbollah to be terrorists. Nor does Syria or Lebanon. I don't think the UN or the EU does either. Few countries do.

It is just a political name calling thing.

(COMMENT)

Currently Hezbollah and what is known as the Hezbollah External Security Organisation are allied with the Assad Regime (Syria), the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps - Quds Force (Iran), Hamas, Islamic Action in Iraq, Iraq (supporting Iranian weapons shipments overflights), Islamic Movement for Change, and of course the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ). I also see that Hezbollah is not opposed by the EU or Russia (Allied with Assad). And Lebanon, the home of Hezbollah, harbored Lebanese terrorists involved in the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847 and in the abduction, torture, and murder of hostages from 1984 to 1991.

Yes, I agree, your consortium does not consider "Hezbollah" to be a terrorist organization. But then, I wouldn't consider that list a sterling example of law abiding elements.

Is it name calling? Or an objective description, based on the goals and objectives, the past history of its actions, and the scope and nature of its activities --- even to the support of the Assad Regime (currently under siege by the general population). And Lebanon is another one of those countries that shouldn't throw stones. It was a country invented by the Allied Powers and carved-out of the French Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

Is it name calling?

It is. There is a whole propaganda campaign called the war on terror. It is all just political name calling.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

(PREFACE)



Hezbollah, a close ally of Iran and Syria, said the attack unveiled a "conspiracy against Damascus and our Arab and Muslim people," according to the website of Hezbollah's Al-Manar TV.



I think, you are correct.


(COMMENT)

Currently Hezbollah and what is known as the Hezbollah External Security Organisation are allied with the Assad Regime (Syria), the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps - Quds Force (Iran), Hamas, Islamic Action in Iraq, Iraq (supporting Iranian weapons shipments overflights), Islamic Movement for Change, and of course the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ). I also see that Hezbollah is not opposed by the EU or Russia (Allied with Assad). And Lebanon, the home of Hezbollah, harbored Lebanese terrorists involved in the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847 and in the abduction, torture, and murder of hostages from 1984 to 1991.

Yes, I agree, your consortium does not consider "Hezbollah" to be a terrorist organization. But then, I wouldn't consider that list a sterling example of law abiding elements.

Is it name calling? Or an objective description, based on the goals and objectives, the past history of its actions, and the scope and nature of its activities --- even to the support of the Assad Regime (currently under siege by the general population). And Lebanon is another one of those countries that shouldn't throw stones. It was a country invented by the Allied Powers and carved-out of the French Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

Is it name calling?

It is. There is a whole propaganda campaign called the war on terror. It is all just political name calling.

Tinmore and George gang up on Rocco. Don't hurt 'em Rocco. They're indispensable.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course, I will not argue that the "War on Terror" is a Madison Avenue style campaign for public support. It is no different than the conglomerate of assorted Palestinian exploitation campaigns to make the terrorist look like a freedom fighter and religious martyr.

Is it name calling?

It is. There is a whole propaganda campaign called the war on terror. It is all just political name calling.

(COMMENT)

Now I don't want anyone to be confused; especially me. Your position is that none of the following events actually happened, and that they are all part of a propaganda conspiracy to impune the character of the Palestinian. OR That none of these acts of violence and intimidation were intended to promote Palestinian political aims.

August 28, 2011 -- Eight people were wounded when a Palestinian man from Nablus attacked a Tel Aviv nightclub. The terrorist hijacked a taxi in Jaffa and rammed into an Israel Border Police checkpoint that had been set up to protect the event of over 2,000 people. He then jumped out of the taxi, shouted “Allahu Akhbar” and began stabbing bystanders and police.

August 18, 2011 -- A series of attacks targeted civilians in soldiers in southern Israel, killing eight people and wounding at least 31. Terrorists from Gaza infiltrated Israel via the border with Egypt, and fired on a civilian busses and vehicles, detonated explosives when IDF soldiers arrived on the scene of the attack, and then launched mortar shells at soldiers along the Israeli-Egyptian border.

April 7, 2011 – An anti-tank missile fired from Gaza at a clearly-marked yellow Israeli school bus driving near the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council wounded an Israeli teenager and the bus driver. The boy, 16-year-old Daniel Viflic, later died from his wounds in the hospital.

March 11, 2011 – Five Israelis, all members of the same family, were stabbed to death in their beds by two men, both believed to be Palestinian. The victims included father and mother Ehud and Ruth Fogel, and three of their six children, Yoav, 11, Elad, 4, and three-month-old Hadas. The brutal murders, which occurred in Itamar, drew international condemnation from governments, the United Nations and the Middle East Quartet of nations.

December 17, 2010, the American Missionary Kristine Luken were stabbed to death, after being attacked by four more Palestinians, while hiking in a forest outside Jerusalem with a friend, Kaye Susan Wilson.

September 1, 2010: Two Israelis were wounded, one seriously, when Hamas terrorists ambushed their car as as the couple was driving near Kochav Hashachar.

August 31, 2010: Four Israelis, including a pregnant woman, were murdered when terrorists ambushed their car as they were driving near Kiryat Arba in the West Bank. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, which coincided with the restarting of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks in Washington, D.C.​

Now I could go back farther in time and make the list longer. Or, as I did before, make the list entirely US citizens killed by Palestinians in the name of the resistance. Or, I could make a list of just cruise ships and planes hijacked, with either US victims or Jewish victims. I could fill the entire page with events. But that is not the point. The point is, to pin down whether such violence and criminal actions are simply justifiable events in the pursuit of Palestinian political aims; OR, as you say, propaganda. Actions that really don't represent the use of force and violence by Palestinians against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” No, those rocket attacks were merely celebratory fire (right?), not intended to intimidate or scare anyone; just elaborate fire works.

The mature question to ask here, is whether or not someone (anyone) can say, with a straight face, that none of these acts, or the hundred more I could name, were not
alarming to the public, horrific in nature, inciting panic or fright to the general population towards which it was directed? (I'm pretty sure those kids on the big yellow school bus were not afraid at all of the rocket.) And I'm sure that such attacks against those targets are fully justified.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

Hezbolah ---is THE MILITIA OF GOD clearly not terrorists-----for the sake
of justice and the DEFENSE OF ISLAAAAAAM----the abduct people and
torture then to death in imaginative and obscene ways Tinnie and Iran
consider them HOLY

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course, I will not argue that the "War on Terror" is a Madison Avenue style campaign for public support. It is no different than the conglomerate of assorted Palestinian exploitation campaigns to make the terrorist look like a freedom fighter and religious martyr.

Is it name calling?

It is. There is a whole propaganda campaign called the war on terror. It is all just political name calling.

(COMMENT)

Now I don't want anyone to be confused; especially me. Your position is that none of the following events actually happened, and that they are all part of a propaganda conspiracy to impune the character of the Palestinian. OR That none of these acts of violence and intimidation were intended to promote Palestinian political aims.

August 28, 2011 -- Eight people were wounded when a Palestinian man from Nablus attacked a Tel Aviv nightclub. The terrorist hijacked a taxi in Jaffa and rammed into an Israel Border Police checkpoint that had been set up to protect the event of over 2,000 people. He then jumped out of the taxi, shouted “Allahu Akhbar” and began stabbing bystanders and police.

August 18, 2011 -- A series of attacks targeted civilians in soldiers in southern Israel, killing eight people and wounding at least 31. Terrorists from Gaza infiltrated Israel via the border with Egypt, and fired on a civilian busses and vehicles, detonated explosives when IDF soldiers arrived on the scene of the attack, and then launched mortar shells at soldiers along the Israeli-Egyptian border.

April 7, 2011 – An anti-tank missile fired from Gaza at a clearly-marked yellow Israeli school bus driving near the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council wounded an Israeli teenager and the bus driver. The boy, 16-year-old Daniel Viflic, later died from his wounds in the hospital.

March 11, 2011 – Five Israelis, all members of the same family, were stabbed to death in their beds by two men, both believed to be Palestinian. The victims included father and mother Ehud and Ruth Fogel, and three of their six children, Yoav, 11, Elad, 4, and three-month-old Hadas. The brutal murders, which occurred in Itamar, drew international condemnation from governments, the United Nations and the Middle East Quartet of nations.

December 17, 2010, the American Missionary Kristine Luken were stabbed to death, after being attacked by four more Palestinians, while hiking in a forest outside Jerusalem with a friend, Kaye Susan Wilson.

September 1, 2010: Two Israelis were wounded, one seriously, when Hamas terrorists ambushed their car as as the couple was driving near Kochav Hashachar.

August 31, 2010: Four Israelis, including a pregnant woman, were murdered when terrorists ambushed their car as they were driving near Kiryat Arba in the West Bank. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, which coincided with the restarting of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks in Washington, D.C.​

Now I could go back farther in time and make the list longer. Or, as I did before, make the list entirely US citizens killed by Palestinians in the name of the resistance. Or, I could make a list of just cruise ships and planes hijacked, with either US victims or Jewish victims. I could fill the entire page with events. But that is not the point. The point is, to pin down whether such violence and criminal actions are simply justifiable events in the pursuit of Palestinian political aims; OR, as you say, propaganda. Actions that really don't represent the use of force and violence by Palestinians against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” No, those rocket attacks were merely celebratory fire (right?), not intended to intimidate or scare anyone; just elaborate fire works.

The mature question to ask here, is whether or not someone (anyone) can say, with a straight face, that none of these acts, or the hundred more I could name, were not
alarming to the public, horrific in nature, inciting panic or fright to the general population towards which it was directed? (I'm pretty sure those kids on the big yellow school bus were not afraid at all of the rocket.) And I'm sure that such attacks against those targets are fully justified.

Most Respectfully,
R

I notice that you made no mention of the 300,000 Palestinian refugees and the hundreds of destroyed Palestinian villages there were before the start of the 1948 war.

 

[irosie91]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course, I will not argue that the "War on Terror" is a Madison Avenue style campaign for public support. It is no different than the conglomerate of assorted Palestinian exploitation campaigns to make the terrorist look like a freedom fighter and religious martyr.

It is. There is a whole propaganda campaign called the war on terror. It is all just political name calling.

(COMMENT)

Now I don't want anyone to be confused; especially me. Your position is that none of the following events actually happened, and that they are all part of a propaganda conspiracy to impune the character of the Palestinian. OR That none of these acts of violence and intimidation were intended to promote Palestinian political aims.

August 28, 2011 -- Eight people were wounded when a Palestinian man from Nablus attacked a Tel Aviv nightclub. The terrorist hijacked a taxi in Jaffa and rammed into an Israel Border Police checkpoint that had been set up to protect the event of over 2,000 people. He then jumped out of the taxi, shouted “Allahu Akhbar” and began stabbing bystanders and police.

August 18, 2011 -- A series of attacks targeted civilians in soldiers in southern Israel, killing eight people and wounding at least 31. Terrorists from Gaza infiltrated Israel via the border with Egypt, and fired on a civilian busses and vehicles, detonated explosives when IDF soldiers arrived on the scene of the attack, and then launched mortar shells at soldiers along the Israeli-Egyptian border.

April 7, 2011 – An anti-tank missile fired from Gaza at a clearly-marked yellow Israeli school bus driving near the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council wounded an Israeli teenager and the bus driver. The boy, 16-year-old Daniel Viflic, later died from his wounds in the hospital.

March 11, 2011 – Five Israelis, all members of the same family, were stabbed to death in their beds by two men, both believed to be Palestinian. The victims included father and mother Ehud and Ruth Fogel, and three of their six children, Yoav, 11, Elad, 4, and three-month-old Hadas. The brutal murders, which occurred in Itamar, drew international condemnation from governments, the United Nations and the Middle East Quartet of nations.

December 17, 2010, the American Missionary Kristine Luken were stabbed to death, after being attacked by four more Palestinians, while hiking in a forest outside Jerusalem with a friend, Kaye Susan Wilson.

September 1, 2010: Two Israelis were wounded, one seriously, when Hamas terrorists ambushed their car as as the couple was driving near Kochav Hashachar.

August 31, 2010: Four Israelis, including a pregnant woman, were murdered when terrorists ambushed their car as they were driving near Kiryat Arba in the West Bank. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, which coincided with the restarting of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks in Washington, D.C.​

Now I could go back farther in time and make the list longer. Or, as I did before, make the list entirely US citizens killed by Palestinians in the name of the resistance. Or, I could make a list of just cruise ships and planes hijacked, with either US victims or Jewish victims. I could fill the entire page with events. But that is not the point. The point is, to pin down whether such violence and criminal actions are simply justifiable events in the pursuit of Palestinian political aims; OR, as you say, propaganda. Actions that really don't represent the use of force and violence by Palestinians against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” No, those rocket attacks were merely celebratory fire (right?), not intended to intimidate or scare anyone; just elaborate fire works.

The mature question to ask here, is whether or not someone (anyone) can say, with a straight face, that none of these acts, or the hundred more I could name, were not
alarming to the public, horrific in nature, inciting panic or fright to the general population towards which it was directed? (I'm pretty sure those kids on the big yellow school bus were not afraid at all of the rocket.) And I'm sure that such attacks against those targets are fully justified.

Most Respectfully,
R

I notice that you made no mention of the 300,000 Palestinian refugees and the hundreds of destroyed Palestinian villages there were before the start of the 1948 war.

you want to talk about "before the start of the 1948 war" ? before the 1948 war---
there was dispute between the muslims and the jews of the middle east----a good
place to start counting refugees, destroyed villages and dead bodies would be
THE BATTLE OF KHAYBAR----629 AD The battle of Khaybar is a point of reference
often cited by your own people. It is a good place to start-----your very own consider
it a GREAT VICTORY FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE and a kind of "beginning" In fact
it was.