Who Will Go To Heaven?

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by dmp
I love you Jeff - your words and friendship are a great encouragement to me. Thanks for your comments.


- d

Thanks bro. Right back at you!

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Scourge
And rape?

I'm not entirely sure what part of the bible you refer to here, but there is a passage dealing with soldiers in war zones. They were permitted to forcibly take a woman, but again with a caveat. They had to first live with that woman for 30 days.

At lot of attacks are made against the bible by taking passages out of context.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Gay people can still be good people. Many of them are. many of them aren't. I don't believe they will "go to hell" for being gay.

 

[Scourge]

I agree things must be in context, but when it says if you rape a woman you must 'buy' her for 50 pcs of Silver form her father, what other interpretation is there? And about approaching a town, and if they don't surrender and become your slaves, you can KILL them! I didn't make that up, but maybe the devout among you can explain the meaning.

AND: I will grab some references, I just have to relocate them...
most were in Leviticus, and Deuteronomy I think.

 

[Scourge]

_ When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished._ If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property._ (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear._ Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ._ (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
_
_ __Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed._ If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. _You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts._ Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. _(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

ATTACK!
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
_
___ _As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. _If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. _But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. _When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. _But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. _You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

 

[Scourge]

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
_
___ If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father._ Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you._ You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land._ You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance._ You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. _(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are._ If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again._ But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her._ And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter._ If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife._ If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment._ (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

_ When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished._ If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property._ (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)



OK people... I seriously want to see what you guys think, what does all that mean? If not what it says...?

 

[SinisterMotives]

I don't know if this makes a difference, but the God of love and peace in the New Testament is a far cry from the vengeful warmongering God of the Old Testament. Christians who practice the barbaric behavior condoned by the latter seem to be ignorant of their own religion.

 

[5stringJeff]

OK, here goes Scourge.

As far as the rape, it still does not say that God condones rape. He did, however, set up a system of punishment for the one who raped her (50 pieces of silver was a lot, plus he had to marry her). That would be like saying that we condone crimes by making people pay fines or serve jail time.

As far as the slavery laws, you will notice that these laws are set up primarily for the benefit of the slaves, not of the slaveholders. I am sure that God does not like slavery; however, it has existed for millenia (and still does today), and so God's laws are meant to protect slaves.

As for the passage about a city not surrendering... when God sent the Israelites into Canaan, God was giving that land to them. the Canaanites had "siined grieviously" against God in many ways, and God used Israel to punish their sins. That is why God was so adamant about wiping out all of the men of all the Canaanites tribes. Certainly not a fun part to read, but it is part of God's judgment against an unrepentant people.

 

[wonderwench]

Interesting comments. I will defer my commentary until later this afternoon.

 

[Scourge]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
OK, here goes Scourge.

As far as the rape, it still does not say that God condones rape. He did, however, set up a system of punishment for the one who raped her (50 pieces of silver was a lot, plus he had to marry her). That would be like saying that we condone crimes by making people pay fines or serve jail time.

As far as the slavery laws, you will notice that these laws are set up primarily for the benefit of the slaves, not of the slaveholders. I am sure that God does not like slavery; however, it has existed for millenia (and still does today), and so God's laws are meant to protect slaves.

As for the passage about a city not surrendering... when God sent the Israelites into Canaan, God was giving that land to them. the Canaanites had "siined grieviously" against God in many ways, and God used Israel to punish their sins. That is why God was so adamant about wiping out all of the men of all the Canaanites tribes. Certainly not a fun part to read, but it is part of God's judgment against an unrepentant people.

Thanks for the response.
However...That sounds a bit crazy. Tell that to a woman who has been raped, that her attacker's punishment is TO MARRY HER! Who is getting punished here? Basically that says if you see a woman you want, take her, and she's yours.

Also, about Slaves... nothing exists without God's consent, right? And saying slavery existed for a millenia, isn't that a blink of the eye to God? He condones slavery if he makes rules to govern it, correct?

And about God's judgement of those unrepentent people, slavery or murder were their options? I thought Hell was what happened to sinners, and that THOU SHALT NOT KILL?

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by OCA
Ok I don't have it in front of me now but there is scriptures that say something about a person being lukewarm in his devotion to Christ and that is unacceptable to God and he will also spit him out or something like that. I do know that you are either hot or cold to him.

The text you're looking for is Revelation 3:15, 16. This is in reference to the Laodicean church (which is the last church) in which we are currently in.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Scourge
Thanks for the response.
However...That sounds a bit crazy. Tell that to a woman who has been raped, that her attacker's punishment is TO MARRY HER! Who is getting punished here? Basically that says if you see a woman you want, take her, and she's yours.

Also, about Slaves... nothing exists without God's consent, right? And saying slavery existed for a millenia, isn't that a blink of the eye to God? He condones slavery if he makes rules to govern it, correct?

And about God's judgement of those unrepentent people, slavery or murder were their options? I thought Hell was what happened to sinners, and that THOU SHALT NOT KILL?

OK, here is a link that should answer the slavery question:
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/questions/answer/bible/slavery/slavery.xml/

Here's the verse immediately preceding the one you quoted. It absolves the woman from any guilt, and prescribes death for rapists caught in the act.

"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. 27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her," (Deut. 22:25-27).

And here's a link talking about rape in the bible, specifically talking about the passage you quoted earlier.

http://www.whydielost.com/condones/

As far as Thou shalt not kill... I think it's been discussed in other threads, but the word in Hebrew means "murder." God did condone the killing of other people in war, as punishment for certain crimes, and in self-defense.

 

[Joz]

I'm on my way to work which doesn't give me time to get into this as I'd like.

All the texts mentioned were particular laws for God's people in a particular time. God only has so much to work with. When slavery was accepted God gave councel for that. When women were considered possessions He gave counsel for that. And when poligamy was accepted He gave counsel for that.

The Bible tells us many stories; even when studied can sometimes be hard to understand. What the Bible does prove, is that man is sinful by nature, God is all that we believe......patient, loving, unchanging, and that He means what He says.

 

[5stringJeff]

Joz, welcome to the board!

 

[Scourge]

Those answers just excuse Christians from denouncing slavery, but, what could God fear from stating all people were equal? Does he bow to our will? Or us to his? If he didn't think Christians should be slave owners or slaves, he would 've said 'Do not take a man or woman as property' or 'Do not subjugate thyself unto another' or whatever. That whole explanation is basically saying God was just going with the flow, just being trendy with the times. If he doesn't make mistakes, or change his mind then slavery is all good these days for true believers...

And paying the father for raping his daughter, 50 shekels, was that a lot for a rich man? If you were wealthy you could do whatever?
And if nobody heard her cry out for help, SHE WOULD BE KILLED! So on the rare occasion a rapist actually tried to stop the victims screams, she would be found guilty of adultery or whatever. Is this well thought out? Is this divine perfection?

 

[5stringJeff]

Scourge, it doesn't look like any answer is going to be good enough for you, so I am not going to bother to keep answering. If you read the link, you would have seen that the early Christian church outlawed slavery within its own ranks because they did recognize that all humans had instrinsic worth.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
the early Christian church outlawed slavery within its own ranks because they did recognize that all humans had instrinsic worth.

Even Liberals?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by dmp
Probably neither?

You stating what 'each man does' is irrellavent. NOBODY gets to God through what they DO...

The Bible tells us "Many will stand before God and say 'God! Look! we fed the hungry! We healed the sick! We gave to Charrities!" God will say, "Depart from me, you workers of sin, I never knew you". That teaches us to stop being so caught up in the 'big things' seen by men; the things we do in front of others are rewarded BY others. The things we do in privacy, in honesty before God will be rewarded by God.

Salvation is awared by God based on our HEARTS. Homosexuality is clearly a sin. So is 'not loving your spouse' or 'abusing your kids'. God doesn't Grade sin. If either or both man honestly repents, and surrenders fully to Christ, then either has the same chance. The difference is, the man who abuses his family isn't pushing for rights to allow him to abuse his family at will.

You question is typical of somebody who knows about God...but doesn't know WHO God is - I'm not saying that as an insult - but an observation.

Seek Truth...Seek Christ, friend.

Any God that would turn away those who, while not having believed in Him/Her, dedicated their lives to the compassionate service of others is far to fallible a being to be considered a God. Too many human foibles to be the image of perfection you make such an entity out to be. Thus unworthy of worship or adoration.

 

[wonderwench]

Some thoughts on this topic:

- There is a great deal of confusion between what is God and what is manmade dogma. Despite the claims that the Bible is the word of God, it has been written, edited and translated by men for centuries.

- The historical context is very misunderstood. Centuries ago, most people were illiterate and the main mode of learning was through stories and parables. These were not to be intepreted in the literal sense that some here are doing.

- Those of you who are dwelling on the existence of heaven and hell have fallen into the trap of Platonic philosophy: there are two worlds. The physical world is sinful and miserable; the joyous world is the afterlife, which we cannot experience until after we die. The Platonic view was seized upon by powerseekers. It is very easy to control someone when they are supposed to put their faith into something they will not truly know until after they are dead. The contrasting philosophy is Aristotelian: we live in reality and have the faculty of reason with which we may understand the universe. Why did God give us the faculty of reason if he did not wish us to use it?

- Religions are forms of philosophies which specify the values that one should follow to live a good life. Stripping away the dogma of organized religion, the eternal truths which are life affirming are best summed up in the Golden Rule. What I find interesting and disturbing is the undercurrent of joy and ancitipation on the part of some of the fervent Christians that those who do not believe the way they do will go to hell. There is a small-mindedness in savoring the future suffering of others. I doubt this is what Jesus meant in his parables and teachings. Nor is it congruent with the manner in which he led his life.

- Those who are advocating a very literal interpretation of the Bible portray a vengeful God who is more concerned with Faith and being worshipped than the lives of the people he created. To think that God would condemn to hell someone who, in his dealings with others, followed Jesus' example of loving thy neighbor, merely because he doesn't worship God, is to think that God wishes to be an idol.

It comes down to this: do we think we were created in order to bow down to a vengeful God? Or do we believe we were created by a benevolent entity who designed us to lead fulfilling lives? The truth stripped bare of dogma supports the latter.

 

[eric]

Be still and know !