Zone1 Why are Christians opposed to abortion when God.....

[hobelim]

I fear you misunderstand me. I don't oppose anyone's belief in a god. The god you describe sounds ok, and I honestly hope your belief gives you comfort. Frankly, I'm a bit jealous. I wish I had belief in an omnipotent god who would care for and protect me. Unfortunately, I haven't found a reason to believe that such exists.

If you want proof of God throw everything that you have ever heard about God into the trash. Disbelieving in God because you are taking what is written literally is only a little better than believing in God because you are taking what is written literally. Either way no such God exists

The subject of kosher law is teaching, flesh, of unclean creatures, people - teeming vermin, vultures, bottom feeders, dogs, sheep, goats, worms, maggots, swine that do not ruminate, (think), fish, etc.,- It is not and was never about food. This is why Jesus said to "eat my flesh"

You must stand guard over the sanctity of your own mind even from your own assumptions.

Purify your mind and be refined and God will make himself known to you.

My problem appears when people demand that others adhere to their belief in their specific god, and try to force laws based solely on that belief. We all must adhere to common morality, but that is not the same as adherance to a specific religion.

I am afraid that one cannot even talk about morality without acknowledging what is written in scripture. Before the law was given, morality did not exist. The world was without shape or form, lawless, and void; pointless, and darkness, superstition and ignorance, covered the face of the deep, the unknown. Without law the world is a jungle where there is no right or wrong, good or evil. No one accuses a lion of being evil or immoral for eating an innocent gazelle alive

One must discern what the subjects are really about since they are hidden by figurative words

Capisce?

 

[Cougarbear]

when God killed ALL babies in the great flood of Noah's Ark flood fame?

I write this not to anger people, if you're not interested in discussing it, then don't. Keep your religion to yourself and move on. I write this because I've had a conversation in another thread and thought it might be a good question to ask for those who want to test their religion against my lack of religion.

I agree with another that why bring up religion then say we can't talk freely about our beliefs? So, here goes. God gives the laws and commandments. We are to obey them. They are for our benefit. That is one simple response.
If I get into my knowledge and understanding of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I would say that the purpose of God is to bring to passed the immortality and eternal life of mankind (His Children). We descend to earth as spirit children into our earthly bodies to eventually be tested whether we will choose good or evil towards each other. If the world or specific locations like Sodom and Gomorrah become so wicked that there is no possibility of good being represented for us to choose, then God would have to wipe them out and start over save it for a few righteous souls. Thus, the world became so wicked, the world and earth itself had to repent and be baptized to start over with the worldwide flood. Now, for the children in that time. Young children don't have the capacity to sin until they can be accountable of their sins which is about 8 years of age. They begin to understand the finality of death and what this means. So, those children who die before the age of accountability are saved automatically in the kingdom of God. So will those who are aborted as well in which their spirits had already descended into their bodies. My opinion is when the blood begins to circulate bringing the breath of life (oxygen) to the body and mind and pain can be felt. About 15 weeks. I'd go as soon as 6 to 8 weeks when the heart begins to beat. They are saved and exalted.
Now, why do they not have to somehow go through the time of choosing good and evil? It's my opinion, but I heard this from an inspired source, that those little ones were promised by the Godhead before we came to this earth that Lucifer (Satan) would not have power over them to torment and tempt because they were the armies of Michael (Adam) that ushered out the third of the hosts of heaven who fought against the Father's Plan to come and be tested by faith good over evil. Lucifer wanted all to come to earth and receive a body but not have to go through life's experiences both good and bad. Lucifer wanted to force us all to be good with no free moral agency of our own. And, he wanted all the glory to go to Him instead of the Father. But, Jehovah (Jesus) said we should follow the Father's Plan and give all the glory to the Father. We chose Jehovah (Jesus) to follow. Those little ones who die for whatever reason receive the covenant made to them and die young before they can be corrupted.

 

[frigidweirdo]

And right there is where you want to apply human standards to God's actions. You think you have standing to tell God when He can and when He cannot exercise His authority.

And right there is where you want to apply your personal standards to the government's actions. The government can legally execute people you think they should not execute, and your opinion doesn't matter, they have the authority to do so.

Because, as I've been saying all along, He has authority and standing that we do not. He is the creator and we are the created.

If you grab your neighbor and restrain him in your basement until he or someone associated with him pays you $500, you go to jail. A policeman does that routinely and is applauded for doing so. The point being that he has authority to do things you consider wrong whether you want him to or not.

It's not about telling God what he can and cannot do.

God says that killing is evil. If God kills then God is evil.

Literally you're saying that God has no standards. That the Christian God can be EVIL, and the people should worship this God without thinking about this.

Again, the analogy of the government is that just because you have power, doesn't mean you should use it. Just because you have the power to kill someone, doesn't mean you should. If you say killing is evil, should you go ahead and kill people?

Surely God is a smart guy, surely God has morals (seeing how he supposedly wrote the ten commandments), God wanted the world to be GOOD. He killed people with a flood because he said humans were BAD.

Another analogy.

A man who is "pro-life" goes and kills a doctors who performs abortions. He said he's "pro-life", and yet he's just taken a life. It's HYPOCRITICAL. A God should not be hypocritical, because he's the one who made the rules. If you don't like the rule, don't make it in the first place.

Why make a rule of "don't kill" if you're not going to follow this rule in the first place?

And the reason why you got to jail for kidnapping and why the police don't, is because there are RULES in place. Right?

Again, there's a rule "don't kill". Nowhere in the Bible is there a rule that says "God can kill", do the Ten Commandments say "God can kill"? No......

There's your problem.

 

[frigidweirdo]

For the sole purpose of illustrating that an entity or person can have authority that you do not.

Around the world and throughout human history, governments did and do legally kill people, it's called executing criminals and enemy combatants. At the same time, those same governments have had laws that prevent citizens from killing other people, aka murdering them. For what purpose do they have those laws? Are all governments throughout human history evil, or do they avoid that label if they just avoid verbally saying that murder is evil?

How many governments in the world think that executing people is wrong? Loads.

Some justify it, others don't.

Some make laws to ban executions because they think it's wrong.

God says killing people is wrong...... hmmm

 

[hadit]

It's not about telling God what he can and cannot do.

God says that killing is evil. If God kills then God is evil.

Literally you're saying that God has no standards. That the Christian God can be EVIL, and the people should worship this God without thinking about this.

Again, the analogy of the government is that just because you have power, doesn't mean you should use it. Just because you have the power to kill someone, doesn't mean you should. If you say killing is evil, should you go ahead and kill people?

Surely God is a smart guy, surely God has morals (seeing how he supposedly wrote the ten commandments), God wanted the world to be GOOD. He killed people with a flood because he said humans were BAD.

Another analogy.

A man who is "pro-life" goes and kills a doctors who performs abortions. He said he's "pro-life", and yet he's just taken a life. It's HYPOCRITICAL. A God should not be hypocritical, because he's the one who made the rules. If you don't like the rule, don't make it in the first place.

Why make a rule of "don't kill" if you're not going to follow this rule in the first place?

And the reason why you got to jail for kidnapping and why the police don't, is because there are RULES in place. Right?

Again, there's a rule "don't kill". Nowhere in the Bible is there a rule that says "God can kill", do the Ten Commandments say "God can kill"? No......

There's your problem.

Do you think God's commands for mankind to follow apply to Him as well? There's YOUR problem.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Do you think God's commands for mankind to follow apply to Him as well? There's YOUR problem.

Do I think that a God that says "don't kill" is the sort of God who would then go around killing?

I think there's a massive problem here.

Don't you?

Why did God put "don't kill" in the ten commandments?

 

[hadit]

How many governments in the world think that executing people is wrong? Loads.

Some justify it, others don't.

Some make laws to ban executions because they think it's wrong.

God says killing people is wrong...... hmmm

The point being that no one says that governments are hypocritical for having laws that make it illegal to murder but also allow the government to execute criminals. If you give governments that leeway, why do you hold God to a different standard?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The point being that no one says that governments are hypocritical for having laws that make it illegal to murder but also allow the government to execute criminals. If you give governments that leeway, why do you hold God to a different standard?

People actually do say the US govt is hypocritical.

The problem here is that humans are very good at compartmentalization. In other words, they can be "pro-life" and eat meat. Because they put "pro-life" into one compartment, and "eat meat" in the other, and neither compartment touches the other inside their brain.

Also, a lot of people compartmentalize by using the religious justification. The people who are most pro-executions are most likely to be those who are religious. They see a God who kills, they have to justify a God that kills alongside a God who says "thou shalt not kill" and baaam they're now in favor of executions.

Why does God have different standards? Perhaps God shouldn't have different standards. Perhaps God isn't who you think he is, and he's evil, and so too are governments.

 

[hadit]

Do I think that a God that says "don't kill" is the sort of God who would then go around killing?

I think there's a massive problem here.

Don't you?

Why did God put "don't kill" in the ten commandments?

I can't believe you would even ask that question. SO WE DON'T KILL EACH OTHER, that's why. He's the creator and He has the authority to kill if He decides that's the best thing to do. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I can't believe you would even ask that question. SO WE DON'T KILL EACH OTHER, that's why. He's the creator and He has the authority to kill if He decides that's the best thing to do. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's hard for me to understand because it doesn't make sense.

Why would God not want us to kill each other? We are omnivores, we're designed to kill. We kill animals all the time and God couldn't give a damn.

Why?

God says "don't kill" and then he kills.

This justifies executions.
However when it comes to abortions, the religious people are like "the baby is innocent", but God kills innocents...

So, if we can use God to justify executions, it's pretty easy to justify abortions.

What's the difference?

 

[EvilCat Breath]

It's not about telling God what he can and cannot do.

God says that killing is evil. If God kills then God is evil.

Literally you're saying that God has no standards. That the Christian God can be EVIL, and the people should worship this God without thinking about this.

Again, the analogy of the government is that just because you have power, doesn't mean you should use it. Just because you have the power to kill someone, doesn't mean you should. If you say killing is evil, should you go ahead and kill people?

Surely God is a smart guy, surely God has morals (seeing how he supposedly wrote the ten commandments), God wanted the world to be GOOD. He killed people with a flood because he said humans were BAD.

Another analogy.

A man who is "pro-life" goes and kills a doctors who performs abortions. He said he's "pro-life", and yet he's just taken a life. It's HYPOCRITICAL. A God should not be hypocritical, because he's the one who made the rules. If you don't like the rule, don't make it in the first place.

Why make a rule of "don't kill" if you're not going to follow this rule in the first place?

And the reason why you got to jail for kidnapping and why the police don't, is because there are RULES in place. Right?

Again, there's a rule "don't kill". Nowhere in the Bible is there a rule that says "God can kill", do the Ten Commandments say "God can kill"? No......

There's your problem.

No one made a rule of don't kill. Killing is necessary to an ordered world. Don't murder. Don't wantonly take an innocent life. Don't kill for pleasure.

 

[hadit]

People actually do say the US govt is hypocritical.

The problem here is that humans are very good at compartmentalization. In other words, they can be "pro-life" and eat meat. Because they put "pro-life" into one compartment, and "eat meat" in the other, and neither compartment touches the other inside their brain.

That's because most things don't fit neatly into a rhetorical box. Clearly they mean pro-life to stand for not wanting to needlessly kill other human beings, thus there's no conflict between wanting to preserve vulnerable human life and eating tasty animals.

Also, a lot of people compartmentalize by using the religious justification. The people who are most pro-executions are most likely to be those who are religious. They see a God who kills, they have to justify a God that kills alongside a God who says "thou shalt not kill" and baaam they're now in favor of executions.

No, they realize that there are circumstances in which it is permissible to kill, NOT murder. That's what the commandment in the Hebrew actually says, do not murder. You do know that, right?

Why does God have different standards? Perhaps God shouldn't have different standards. Perhaps God isn't who you think he is, and he's evil, and so too are governments.

Is a fireman a hypocrite because he's allowed to break a car's window to get to a fire hydrant but you're not? Is a father a hypocrite because he tells a toddler he's not allowed to touch the stove at all, then turns around and cooks dinner on the same stove? I say no, your standard would say yes.

OF COURSE, God has different standards that apply to Him. He's the creator, we are the creation. He has no more restrictions on removing lives from earth than you do removing ants from an ant farm you built.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

It's hard for me to understand because it doesn't make sense.

Why would God not want us to kill each other? We are omnivores, we're designed to kill. We kill animals all the time and God couldn't give a damn.

Why?

God says "don't kill" and then he kills.

This justifies executions.
However when it comes to abortions, the religious people are like "the baby is innocent", but God kills innocents...

So, if we can use God to justify executions, it's pretty easy to justify abortions.

What's the difference?

The difference is the killer. Killing does not make you God and He is not bound by the laws He makes for man to follow. Ultimately murderers want to be God. To have the power of life and death over living things.

 

[hadit]

It's hard for me to understand because it doesn't make sense.

Why would God not want us to kill each other? We are omnivores, we're designed to kill. We kill animals all the time and God couldn't give a damn.

Why?

Because animals are given to us for food. That's basic. Other humans are not.

God says "don't kill" and then he kills.

This justifies executions.

He says for us not to murder. As I've said before, a mother or father can tell a toddler, "Don't touch the stove", then turn around and cook dinner on that same stove. They're not hypocrites, they just have greater authority than the toddler does. Why don't you want to address that?

However when it comes to abortions, the religious people are like "the baby is innocent", but God kills innocents...

We don't have God's authority, just like a toddler doesn't have authority to play with a stove or a knife, but the parents do.

So, if we can use God to justify executions, it's pretty easy to justify abortions.

What's the difference?

One difference is the innocence vs guilt of those being deliberately put to death. A murderer can legally be put to death by a government, an innocent child, not so much.

 

[hadit]

The difference is the killer. Killing does not make you God and He is not bound by the laws He makes for man to follow. Ultimately murderers want to be God. To have the power of life and death over living things.

I don't see why it is so difficult for people who literally tell their own children NOT to do things that they themselves do routinely, and don't think themselves to be hypocrites.

 

[hadit]

No one made a rule of don't kill. Killing is necessary to an ordered world. Don't murder. Don't wantonly take an innocent life. Don't kill for pleasure.

That's what the command actually says in Hebrew, don't murder, not don't kill. The ancient Hebrews that lived under that law had capital punishment prescribed for various crimes, so obviously don't kill is not accurate.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

I don't see why it is so difficult for people who literally tell their own children NOT to do things that they themselves do routinely, and don't think themselves to be hypocrites.

They want to be God and have the power God has. Why should God have the power of life and death when they don't.

 

[hadit]

I fear you misunderstand me. I don't oppose anyone's belief in a god. The god you describe sounds ok, and I honestly hope your belief gives you comfort. Frankly, I'm a bit jealous. I wish I had belief in an omnipotent god who would care for and protect me. Unfortunately, I haven't found a reason to believe that such exists. My problem appears when people demand that others adhere to their belief in their specific god, and try to force laws based solely on that belief. We all must adhere to common morality, but that is not the same as adherance to a specific religion.

And, of course, one must ask where this "common morality" comes from.

 

[BULLDOG]

If you want proof of God throw everything that you have ever heard about God into the trash. Disbelieving in God because you are taking what is written literally is only a little better than believing in God because you are taking what is written literally. Either way no such God exists

The subject of kosher law is teaching, flesh, of unclean creatures, people - teeming vermin, vultures, bottom feeders, dogs, sheep, goats, worms, maggots, swine that do not ruminate, (think), fish, etc.,- It is not and was never about food. This is why Jesus said to "eat my flesh"

You must stand guard over the sanctity of your own mind even from your own assumptions.

Purify your mind and be refined and God will make himself known to you.



I am afraid that one cannot even talk about morality without acknowledging what is written in scripture. Before the law was given, morality did not exist. The world was without shape or form, lawless, and void; pointless, and darkness, superstition and ignorance, covered the face of the deep, the unknown. Without law the world is a jungle where there is no right or wrong, good or evil. No one accuses a lion of being evil or immoral for eating an innocent gazelle alive

One must discern what the subjects are really about since they are hidden by figurative words

Capisce?

Sorry, I don't need a book to know what morality is. Are you one of those who think the non religious have no purpose or goals? Do you think we are amoral? If so, you are an arrogant fool as well as being wrong.

 

[BULLDOG]

And, of course, one must ask where this "common morality" comes from.

It's an interesting question worthy of a lot of study, but it is, in fact universally accepted. The tenets of every religion are largely the same, Be truthful. don't steal, don't murder, help the less fortunate, love of peace, etc. These moral necessities are the same for most religions, and those with no religion.