Zone1 Why are Christians opposed to abortion when God.....

[BULLDOG]

Of course. There is no equality here.

Got it. Your mind is made up. Facts just confuse you.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Got it. Your mind is made up. Facts just confuse you.

The facts are simple, you believe that if is wrong for people to kill, it has to be equally wrong for God to kill. Anything else is hypocrisy.

That's simply wrong.

 

[JoeMoma]

when God killed ALL babies in the great flood of Noah's Ark flood fame?

Based on that logic, Christians should be okay with mass killings.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Read more closely we learn that mankind brought evil down upon themselves. This appears to be a constantly repetitive and persistent occurrence in human history...bringing evil upon ourselves. Why do yo suppose that is?

They brought it on themselves... but God made man.

God gave them a brain and then did a test on them.

And they brought the evil of GOD upon themselves...... by... being what God made them....

So why hasn't God kill of humans again?

 

[frigidweirdo]

He gave 120 years for people to learn that the flood was coming and secure a seat on the boat. They ignored Him. I say that's pretty good due process.

It doesn't have to be killing. Even if you think your neighbor is committing a crime, you cannot grab and restrain him for the weekend until a judge takes his seat while a policeman can do just that.

No, while God CAN do whatever He likes (at least you acknowledge that), He does not act capriciously or precipitously. There are reasons why people are killed, and God is SLOW to anger. All of those "atrocities" you're so upset about in the Old Testament were done after generations of people turned against God and let evil grow. The Egyptian firstborn were killed after God's people were enslaved for hundreds of years and 9 previous escalating plagues were ignored. The point is, you don't really have standing to complain that judgement has come when you've ignored the warnings. Whose fault is it when you drive around multiple "Stop, the bridge is out" signs, then plunge into the river and die?

Not at all because God does not arbitrarily kill humans. He has reasons and purposes. The point is that we cannot comprehend the infinite mind any more than a toddler can comprehend why he's not allowed to touch the stove, but his parents can use it routinely.

No, that's what due process is at all.

And if you tell people "I'm going to blow up your city in a year's time" and then you do it, does that make you any less evil?

Again, God can do whatever he likes. He can do EVIL THINGS. Should God do evil things just because he can?

The Bible teaches that we should not kill. We CAN kill. That's why we say "don't kill". Just because we CAN, doesn't mean we SHOULD. This is a TEACHING FROM THE BIBLE.

And you're telling me that God thinks this is a little stupid. Oh, great. Well, I'm not going to listen to the Ten Commandments, I'm going to follow the line that killing is okay... because I can interpret it that way easily, thank you very much.

God might have a reason or a purpose.

Get this. God made humans. God then tested humans. The humans, that God made, didn't do as God wanted. He wanted his humans to be (get this) MORAL. So God then kicked them out of Eden, then killed the descendants. So... er... the moral of the story is that God will do IMMORAL things to people he made, and made badly.... Go figure.

And since then, the descendants of Noah have been totally IMMORAL and God's done NOTHING about it. In fact, the people of the Christian God have the highest murder rates in the WORLD.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Based on that logic, Christians should be okay with mass killings.

I think they are... they supported the war in Iraq, they want to keep their guns for a much higher murder rate in the US, the top 35 or so countries in the world for murder are Christian, the highest murder rate in Asia is the only Christian country, the Philippines......

 

[Meriweather]

They brought it on themselves... but God made man.

God gave them a brain and then did a test on them.

And they brought the evil of GOD upon themselves...... by... being what God made them....

So why hasn't God kill of humans again?

I am a proponent of first seeking and finding God, and then going on to reading the Bible.

What I find interesting about the story of Adam and Eve is that they were given a choice to eat of the fruit knowledge, of knowing both good and evil.

I use the analogy of gravity a lot because it brings home the point that if we choose to ignore what we know of gravity we are likely to get hurt. The same is true of knowing or ignoring fire or a hot burner. When we ignore gravity, fire, and/or evil, grave consequences result. For some the burnt hand teaches best. As humans, too many of us choose not to learn from the past. We believe we are smarter, know better, that what did not work in the past for our ancestors will work for us.

The author of Noah's story set down his theory of what particular human behavior brought unhappiness and dissatisfaction upon the people. The question I have for you is what specific behavior was this? And, secondly, did the author give his readers much hope that people would now forsake this behavior?

 

[Clyde 154]

when God killed ALL babies in the great flood of Noah's Ark flood fame?

I write this not to anger people, if you're not interested in discussing it, then don't. Keep your religion to yourself and move on. I write this because I've had a conversation in another thread and thought it might be a good question to ask for those who want to test their religion against my lack of religion.

The hypocrisy: The first oath taken by a supposed physician is, "First Do no Harm". What do you call a physician that oversees an abortion mill? An immoral person.

No anger.........just amusing, it's the double standard. By asking the question.........you are suggesting that an absolute moral code exists. Therefore if you are an atheist........its insincere at best. In fact: such a question undermines the concept of atheism and its concept of relative morality in the claim that killing children is somehow immoral and justifies ABORTION on DEMAND for the sake of convenience. You have justified absolute morality....as being transcendent to mankind.....you just admitted that God exists. If there is no assumption that God exists.......why ask the question about a spiritual being that does not exist?

Reality: You suggest that you ask the question not to invoke anger.........but really? Is that not the exact reason you asked the question, attempting to point out the supposed hypocrisy? Here is what you are presenting. 1. The death of Children......innocent children. 2. How it was God who ordered the death of the Children. The very reason is to upset the supposed religious person. The answer in simple terms? "...for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God." -- James 1:20

Thus to find a Scriptural Answer (the Word of God, not man's answer but Gods) without invoking an emotional response.
First: there must be an assumption that man has a right to live and God does not have the right to take away the life that He created in the first place.

God has the right of ownership. "Behold all souls are Mine (God); the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son...the soul who sins shall die." -- Ez. 18:4 Children are not capable of sinning until they reach the age of reason......meaning, they cannot determine right from wrong...i.e, the concept of LAW. Without Law sin does not exist (Romans 4:15) God declares that the Kingdom of Heaven is like that of a child and and the adult soul must strive to be the same as a child in order to enter the Kingdom of God (Matthew 18:3-4).

But the person who, with premeditation, takes the life of an innocent are guilty of murder (such as Abortion on demand for the sake of convenience........and what is God's justice for the taking of an innocent life? "Whoever sheds the blood of man shall have his blood shed by man." -- Genesis 9:6 Capital punishment is carried over into the N.T. of Christ (Romans 13:1-14)....the government does not bear the sword in vain, its the duty of government to protect the innocent from the murderous.

If God cannot take life, then all deaths are wrong and immoral. Reality: Innocent Children die every day......its part of the human condition. But all Children go to the bosom of God because they are innocent. God allows the innocent child to die because they go back to God at death (Eccl. 12:7)

Why did God allow the death of Children in such events as the FLOOD? What's the alternative? Should God allow them to live and become indoctrinated by their evil parents and lose their souls to hell once they reach the age of reason?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

The hypocrisy: The first oath taken by a supposed physician is, "First Do no Harm". What do you call a physician that oversees an abortion mill? An immoral person.

A murderer, plain and simple.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I am a proponent of first seeking and finding God, and then going on to reading the Bible.

What I find interesting about the story of Adam and Eve is that they were given a choice to eat of the fruit knowledge, of knowing both good and evil.

I use the analogy of gravity a lot because it brings home the point that if we choose to ignore what we know of gravity we are likely to get hurt. The same is true of knowing or ignoring fire or a hot burner. When we ignore gravity, fire, and/or evil, grave consequences result. For some the burnt hand teaches best. As humans, too many of us choose not to learn from the past. We believe we are smarter, know better, that what did not work in the past for our ancestors will work for us.

The author of Noah's story set down his theory of what particular human behavior brought unhappiness and dissatisfaction upon the people. The question I have for you is what specific behavior was this? And, secondly, did the author give his readers much hope that people would now forsake this behavior?

I don't really understand your sentence about finding God then reading the Bible. I doubt there's been a single person that's "found God" without reading the holy book (of any religion) or being told about it by someone who has.

Adam and Eve were given a choice. They made their choice for a reason. Because that is how they were made.

God goes around killing people, essentially he's evil. He produces humans who, when given the chance, will choose evil. God says humans are made in his image. Seems pretty consistent so far.

Not sure your gravity analogy is a good one. Jesus knew nothing of gravity, and yet, he didn't die from his lack of knowledge of gravity.

Evil is... well... evil is a very human thing "don't kill", yet we kill animals and God seems to have no problem with this. It's subjective, totally subjective based around human nature.

We should do "evil" things, which essentially means what humans think is bad. Adam and Eve were told not to eat the apple, but why should they believe God? The dude does evil things, probably lies. There's an apple, God made apples to be eaten....

Genesis says "the world was full of violence".

I mean, God made CARNIVORES and had a problem with violence. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. "Here's a tiger, he has to kill to survive, and you're an omnivore and I give you the instinct to kill and you can have violence against animals, but against humans it's evil, unless of course I do it, muahhhhahahhha"

And since then we've had how many wars? How many? Countless. The Christians who see God saying "violence is bad" are like "bomb the fuck out of anyone with oil that they won't do what we say". And still God hasn't taken them out.... why?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The hypocrisy: The first oath taken by a supposed physician is, "First Do no Harm". What do you call a physician that oversees an abortion mill? An immoral person.

No anger.........just amusing, it's the double standard. By asking the question.........you are suggesting that an absolute moral code exists. Therefore if you are an atheist........its insincere at best. In fact: such a question undermines the concept of atheism and its concept of relative morality in the claim that killing children is somehow immoral and justifies ABORTION on DEMAND for the sake of convenience. You have justified absolute morality....as being transcendent to mankind.....you just admitted that God exists. If there is no assumption that God exists.......why ask the question about a spiritual being that does not exist?

Reality: You suggest that you ask the question not to invoke anger.........but really? Is that not the exact reason you asked the question, attempting to point out the supposed hypocrisy? Here is what you are presenting. 1. The death of Children......innocent children. 2. How it was God who ordered the death of the Children. The very reason is to upset the supposed religious person. The answer in simple terms? "...for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God." -- James 1:20

Thus to find a Scriptural Answer (the Word of God, not man's answer but Gods) without invoking an emotional response.
First: there must be an assumption that man has a right to live and God does not have the right to take away the life that He created in the first place.

God has the right of ownership. "Behold all souls are Mine (God); the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son...the soul who sins shall die." -- Ez. 18:4 Children are not capable of sinning until they reach the age of reason......meaning, they cannot determine right from wrong...i.e, the concept of LAW. Without Law sin does not exist (Romans 4:15) God declares that the Kingdom of Heaven is like that of a child and and the adult soul must strive to be the same as a child in order to enter the Kingdom of God (Matthew 18:3-4).

But the person who, with premeditation, takes the life of an innocent are guilty of murder (such as Abortion on demand for the sake of convenience........and what is God's justice for the taking of an innocent life? "Whoever sheds the blood of man shall have his blood shed by man." -- Genesis 9:6 Capital punishment is carried over into the N.T. of Christ (Romans 13:1-14)....the government does not bear the sword in vain, its the duty of government to protect the innocent from the murderous.

If God cannot take life, then all deaths are wrong and immoral. Reality: Innocent Children die every day......its part of the human condition. But all Children go to the bosom of God because they are innocent. God allows the innocent child to die because they go back to God at death (Eccl. 12:7)

Why did God allow the death of Children in such events as the FLOOD? What's the alternative? Should God allow them to live and become indoctrinated by their evil parents and lose their souls to hell once they reach the age of reason?

You can say "do no harm", but doctors literally cut people up. In order to cure someone, sometimes you have to do harm.

Anyway, this discussion isn't really about whether doctors perform abortions, it's about whether God would support abortions.

So, if you wish to participate in the topic of the thread, please do. If you wish to talk about something else, I won't respond.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

You can say "do no harm", but doctors literally cut people up. In order to cure someone, sometimes you have to do harm.

Anyway, this discussion isn't really about whether doctors perform abortions, it's about whether God would support abortions.

So, if you wish to participate in the topic of the thread, please do. If you wish to talk about something else, I won't respond.

Is that really your question though? Ask Does God support the act of taking an innocent life? You can parse this in any number of ways. An unborn child isn't human. It isn't alive. In any case it's justified because the mother wants it dead. Pick one. It doesn't matter. If God does not support the act of the taking of an innocent life, He does not support the act of taking an innocent life. Forget the nonsense of God taking millions of innocent lives. When you are God you can kill whatever you want. He sits in judgment of you not the other way around.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't really understand your sentence about finding God then reading the Bible. I doubt there's been a single person that's "found God" without reading the holy book (of any religion) or being told about it by someone who has.

Sure, I was told of it as a child, but that was before I was able to read much of the Bible for myself. My introduction to God was through Little Golden Books.

 

[Meriweather]

God goes around killing people, essentially he's evil. He produces humans who, when given the chance, will choose evil. God says humans are made in his image. Seems pretty consistent so far.

Only if one takes a wrong and twisted turn. Which we humans are apt to do being such a whiny species. "All someone else's fault. Never my fault." And, "Since they do that, I can do this." Not to mention twisting a simple story to mean something else entirely.

 

[Meriweather]

Evil is... well... evil is a very human thing "don't kill", yet we kill animals

Not to mention insects! People kill insects! They are totally oblivious to a dying worm struggling to get off the sidewalk and back into the earth. We step on ants without noticing, let alone giving them any thought. Woe! Woe! Whoa.

The topic is humans killing humans. Based on the type of reasoning presented in this thread (Someone else kills humans, so it should be alright for humans to kill humans.) By this reasoning, since scorpions, black widows, lions, tigers, and snakes kill humans it follows humans should kill humans, too!

The other faulty reasoning is, "Let's blame a natural disaster on God and then rush to the conclusion God kills babies!" This type of reasoning reminds me of the old saying of, "A conclusion is the point where someone stopped thinking."

 

[Meriweather]

And since then we've had how many wars? How many? Countless.

How many wars have you, personally, been in? I doubt that it was "countless". Countless people having chicken pox is far different from one person having chicken pox countless times. Simply because you learned by doing, why scoff at all others who were and are also learning by doing?

 

[BULLDOG]

Sure, I was told of it as a child, but that was before I was able to read much of the Bible for myself. My introduction to God was through Little Golden Books.

Just another example of religious belief being determined by location more than anything else.

 

[Meriweather]

Just another example of religious belief being determined by location more than anything else.

Belief is determined by what one experiences. For example, if you learned that lying and thievery were of great interest to you, and their pursuit made you happy and were of benefit to you, would being born in a different place/culture made a difference in your own psyche?

However, if you tried out lying and thievery and discovered they brought trouble and unhappiness into your life despite the culture into which you were born would you have continued on lying and stealing?

What would have changed my views about God is that after putting in time and effort seeking God and getting nothing from it, I would have reached a different conclusion. As it is, I see many people studying the Bible when they should be seeking God first.

Keep in mind that many who choose not to continue seeking--or those who do not seek to begin with--have no true desire to keep up the effort. I get that. I am betting many who have searched for gold and did not find it, searched and worked as hard at their search as those who did find gold--until they no longer felt it worth the effort.

 

[BULLDOG]

Belief is determined by what one experiences. For example, if you learned that lying and thievery were of great interest to you, and their pursuit made you happy and were of benefit to you, would being born in a different place/culture made a difference in your own psyche?

However, if you tried out lying and thievery and discovered they brought trouble and unhappiness into your life despite the culture into which you were born would you have continued on lying and stealing?

What would have changed my views about God is that after putting in time and effort seeking God and getting nothing from it, I would have reached a different conclusion. As it is, I see many people studying the Bible when they should be seeking God first.

Keep in mind that many who choose not to continue seeking--or those who do not seek to begin with--have no true desire to keep up the effort. I get that. I am betting many who have searched for gold and did not find it, searched and worked as hard at their search as those who did find gold--until they no longer felt it worth the effort.

Lying and thievery has been shown to be detrimental to society and are mostly opposed by every religion. You don't find it interesting that one part of the world is mostly Christian while other parts are Muslim or Hindu? Closer to home, don't you find it of note that Quakers and Amish all seem to be born into their own communities?

 

[Meriweather]

Lying and thievery has been shown to be detrimental to society and are mostly opposed by every religion. You don't find it interesting that one part of the world is mostly Christian while other parts are Muslim or Hindu? Closer to home, don't you find it of note that Quakers and Amish all seem to be born into their own communities?

Why should differences in religion be any more interesting or amazing than differences in styles of dress?