Zone1 Why are Christians opposed to abortion when God.....

[Clyde 154]

You can say "do no harm", but doctors literally cut people up. In order to cure someone, sometimes you have to do harm.

Anyway, this discussion isn't really about whether doctors perform abortions, it's about whether God would support abortions.

So, if you wish to participate in the topic of the thread, please do. If you wish to talk about something else, I won't respond.

That's some humbacked and crooked logic. Necessary surgery is not doing harm. Such can't compare with the Abortion Mills for profit managed by Corrupt Physicians.

It appears that you are in need of a very good medical or osteopathic physician that specializes in "ophthalmology". It's clear you had trouble reading Post #248 that deals entirely with the subject of God and the death of Children.

Next is your crooked logic attempting to declare that necessary surgery is the same as Abortion on Demand........when the death of the unborn child is a premeditated death (harm) of an otherwise perfectly healthy human child in a natural state of gestation (growth)......something the child will continue from the time of conception to the legally defined age of full gestation (growth) commonly defined as 18 years of age. The magical vagina defines when its acceptable to kill that child and when its a crime to kill that same gestating human child...no? Before its head breaches that magic vagina.....it can be killed but a soon as the magic vagina is breached it somehow becomes a crime to kill that same gestating human child?

In Fact the Greek Phrase that is contained in the "Hippocratic Oath" does not actually contain the phrase "first do no harm"....such is simply a modern condensed paraphrasing of one of the original oaths under the Hippocratic Oath.....verbatim, the phrase is, "I will never give a deadly drug to anybody who asks for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. SIMILARLY, I WILL NOT GIVE TO A WOMAN AN ABORTIVE REMEDY................"

 

[frigidweirdo]

That's some humbacked and crooked logic. Necessary surgery is not doing harm. Such can't compare with the Abortion Mills for profit managed by Corrupt Physicians.

It appears that you are in need of a very good medical or osteopathic physician that specializes in "ophthalmology". It's clear you had trouble reading Post #248 that deals entirely with the subject of God and the death of Children.

Next is your crooked logic attempting to declare that necessary surgery is the same as Abortion on Demand........when the death of the unborn child is a premeditated death (harm) of an otherwise perfectly healthy human child in a natural state of gestation (growth)......something the child will continue from the time of conception to the legally defined age of full gestation (growth) commonly defined as 18 years of age. The magical vagina defines when its acceptable to kill that child and when its a crime to kill that same gestating human child...no? Before its head breaches that magic vagina.....it can be killed but a soon as the magic vagina is breached it somehow becomes a crime to kill that same gestating human child?

In Fact the Greek Phrase that is contained in the "Hippocratic Oath" does not actually contain the phrase "first do no harm"....such is simply a modern condensed paraphrasing of one of the original oaths under the Hippocratic Oath.....verbatim, the phrase is, "I will never give a deadly drug to anybody who asks for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. SIMILARLY, I WILL NOT GIVE TO A WOMAN AN ABORTIVE REMEDY................"

As I said, if you don't want to participate in the conversation, just don't.

 

[Meriweather]

The problem is that you're saying it's difficult to have a conversation with someone who doesn't believe what you believe.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying it is difficult to have a conversation about God with someone who hasn't a clue about God and has no understanding of stories that are about God. To make it more difficult, you have no understanding of the themes/perspectives others have of Biblical accounts. I am speaking of God/Biblical accounts while you are speaking (and understanding) mud pies. I am of a family of atheists and we understand each other and our far different beliefs. The difference is that we are on the same page.

 

[Meriweather]

But how do you believe what you believe in the first place? Surely some Christians go around looking at the Bible and using it to think about the world.

The first thing I understand about the Bible is that it is not all about me, or all about anyone else for that matter. The next thing is that there is an ideal for us to pursue. The Ten Commandments are one example of these ideals; the Beatitudes are a second one.

The best Old Testament descriptions of how to see God is one, in the small things of this world, in the whispering murmurs. Another way is through hindsight as it is difficult to see God when He is directly before us.

Belief is reached through faith, and faith is reached through logic. One looks at the Ten Commandments/Beatitudes and takes the leap of faith that they are the best guides to living one's life. One begins living by them and faith grows into belief through experience.

It is so easy to overlook the small things in life, but it is often true that happiness, contentment, wisdom--and God--are found in the small things in our lives. In the night, when we look at our day through hindsight, so many things become more clear.

 

[BULLDOG]

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying it is difficult to have a conversation about God with someone who hasn't a clue about God and has no understanding of stories that are about God. To make it more difficult, you have no understanding of the themes/perspectives others have of Biblical accounts. I am speaking of God/Biblical accounts while you are speaking (and understanding) mud pies. I am of a family of atheists and we understand each other and our far different beliefs. The difference is that we are on the same page.

You seem to think that just because you aren't a Christian, you can't know what is in the bible. I assure you, there are more non-believers who know much more about the bible, themes and stories in the bible, how, when, and why it was compiled, and every other aspect of the bible than you can imagine.

 

[Meriweather]

Also, I did say if you didn't want to have this conversation, don't bother. I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm not trying to find God, or anything like that. I'm interested in debate and having a conversation. If you can't explain, justify or whatever other verb you think you're doing here, then don't. If you wish to partake of this conversation, then do.

Grin. It's not about not wanting to have the conversation--it's about wanting to have the conversation, but for that to happen we both have to be on the same page. The question is Why are Christians opposed to abortion?

The answer is because abortion does not meet the ideal. Declaring God kills babies and using Noah's story to support that argument is pointless as the story isn't even about anyone killing babies--it simply poses as an atheist sidebar to the original story. In the final analysis, it doesn't even meet the definition of a sidebar, it is simply another made-up story for atheists.

This brings up another question....Why do some atheists insist on making God out to be a villain? I understand having no belief in God. I do not understand having no belief in God, but insisting God is a villain. No logic there.

 

[Meriweather]

You seem to think

No, that isn't what I think. The part you are missing is the best instruction I ever received was from a Jewish man (first language Hebrew) who was a firm atheist.

 

[BULLDOG]

Grin. It's not about not wanting to have the conversation--it's about wanting to have the conversation, but for that to happen we both have to be on the same page. The question is Why are Christians opposed to abortion?

The answer is because abortion does not meet the ideal. Declaring God kills babies and using Noah's story to support that argument is pointless as the story isn't even about anyone killing babies--it simply poses as an atheist sidebar to the original story. In the final analysis, it doesn't even meet the definition of a sidebar, it is simply another made-up story for atheists.

This brings up another question....Why do some atheists insist on making God out to be a villain? I understand having no belief in God. I do not understand having no belief in God, but insisting God is a villain. No logic there.

Noah's story kinda is about killing babies. along with killing every other person and animal on earth, except a select few. I suppose that's probably hard to understand if you are used to just picking and choosing the parts you like. God killing all those people is the story. Otherwise, there is no story. Many athiests insist on viewinng god stories as they are actually told in the bible, without rewriting them to match what you think it should say. If his actions are those of a villain, what do you expect?

 

[Meriweather]

Noah's story kinda is about killing babies. along with killing every other person and animal on earth, except a select few. I suppose that's probably hard to understand if you are used to just picking and choosing the parts you like. God killing all those people is the story. Otherwise, there is no story. Many athiests insist on viewinng god stories as they are actually told in the bible, without rewriting them to match what you think it should say. If his actions are those of a villain, what do you expect?

We hear that a flood was so bad it killed all kinds of animals including people. That's the setting. Good stories have a theme. What is the theme of this particular flood story.

Jewish rabbis have long been of the mind that scripture is meant to be studied--not read. People who remember the setting may have read the story...but they did not spend any time studying the account. What was the lesson it was teaching?

 

[BULLDOG]

We hear that a flood was so bad it killed all kinds of animals including people. That's the setting. Good stories have a theme. What is the theme of this particular flood story.

Jewish rabbis have long been of the mind that scripture is meant to be studied--not read. People who remember the setting may have read the story...but they did not spend any time studying the account. What was the lesson it was teaching?

If you make god angry, he will kill you all, except a select few.

 

[Meriweather]

If you make god angry, he will kill you all, except a select few.

That's a conclusion based on someone reading the setting.

 

[BULLDOG]

That's a conclusion based on someone reading the setting.

That's a conclusion based on gods words.
Genisis 6 : 13
13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

 

[Meriweather]

That's a conclusion based on gods words.
Genisis 6 : 13
13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Was the account written before the flood or after? If after, how much longer after?

 

[BULLDOG]

Was the account written before the flood or after? If after, how much longer after?

The entire bible was written after the fact. If you can't believe the quote from god about what he was going to do and why, how and why is that different from believing any other part of the story?

 

[Meriweather]

The entire bible was written after the fact. If you can't believe the quote from god about what he was going to do and why, how and why is that different from believing any other part of the story?

The problem with proof-texting a single verse is that all the other verse are left out of consideration. Let's say you deeply believe that single verse. You believe God used the spoken word to communicate with Noah. Based on what God said in this verse, you know God to be a villain. No other verse will convince you otherwise. You have a firm belief in God and you firmly believe He is a villain. Is no further study needed?

 

[BULLDOG]

The problem with proof-texting a single verse is that all the other verse are left out of consideration. Let's say you deeply believe that single verse. You believe God used the spoken word to communicate with Noah. Based on what God said in this verse, you know God to be a villain. No other verse will convince you otherwise. You have a firm belief in God and you firmly believe He is a villain. Is no further study needed?

Of course everything must be taken in context. What other part of the story indicates he really didn't intend to kill all those babies, or which part explains what those babies did to deserve to die?

 

[BULLDOG]

The problem with proof-texting a single verse is that all the other verse are left out of consideration. Let's say you deeply believe that single verse. You believe God used the spoken word to communicate with Noah. Based on what God said in this verse, you know God to be a villain. No other verse will convince you otherwise. You have a firm belief in God and you firmly believe He is a villain. Is no further study needed?

I have heard every one of the excuses/explanations that you have tried to use so far. They always fail to stand up to common sense and reason. It doesn't have to be the flood that is being discussed. It can be anything, but it always comes back to the same excuses, or some form of them. I suspect you will continue to try explaining what great problem god solved by killing all those innocent babies, until you finally end up where it always ends up " YOU NEED TO PRAY ABOUT IT, AND GOD/THE HOLY SPIRIT/ JESUS/ OR SOME OTHER ENTITY SHOWS YOU"

 

[Meriweather]

I have heard every one of the excuses/explanations that you have tried to use so far. They always fail to stand up to common sense and reason. It doesn't have to be the flood that is being discussed. It can be anything, but it always comes back to the same excuses, or some form of them. I suspect you will continue to try explaining what great problem god solved by killing all those innocent babies, until you finally end up where it always ends up " YOU NEED TO PRAY ABOUT IT, AND GOD/THE HOLY SPIRIT/ JESUS/ OR SOME OTHER ENTITY SHOWS YOU"

Do you believe human knowledge has grown over time, or do you believe there is no such thing as a natural disaster--God takes aim and fires when He is in the mood? Do you believe God causes every person's death no matter how they occur, or is death a part of every human life?

Pray about it?!? Snort. Either use the intelligence and knowledge we have in this day and age, or pray that you find the time to learn about natural disasters.

In early times, people of faith (and many Muslims still do) believed that no one can move as much as their little finger without it first being the will of God. The only reason the Twin Towers fell was because it was the will of God, and some Muslims were a little bit taken aback when it was not the will of God that anything in Washington DC be destroyed.

Do you hold these beliefs of God and religion?

 

[Meriweather]

Of course everything must be taken in context. What other part of the story indicates he really didn't intend to kill all those babies, or which part explains what those babies did to deserve to die?

Using the knowledge available in his own time, the author of Noah's flood told a story of how human behavior brought about disaster. At the time there were other stories that had a great flood as the setting. Closer to our own time, we have numerous stories using the Civil War as a setting. Reading through them, we gain an understanding of what people knew--and didn't know--at that time. Each story has a theme, something that makes that account unique.

What human behavior was the author of the Noah account addressing and warning against?

 

[hadit]

Well, people have been saying the world is coming to an end due to climate change, most people don't care.

Mostly your argument is one a judgement. And you think because someone has the power to do something, therefore they can do it without thinking. Also that people should accept a hypocrite.

If you think that then you haven't been paying any attention to anything I've been saying.

Is a parent a hypocrite when they tell their toddler, "Do not touch the stove", then use that very stove every day? You refused to answer.
Is a policeman a hypocrite because he can throw someone in the back seat of his car, take him to a building and lock him in a room until someone else lets him out, but arrests you if you do the same? You refused to answer.
Is a soldier on the battlefield a hypocrite because he shoots a total stranger and is praised for doing it, but if you do the same you are imprisoned? You refused to answer.

Is waiting for hundreds of years before bringing judgement doing it "without thinking"? You refused to answer. You have repeatedly refused to consider what the people were doing that brought judgement on them.

And finally, those foil helmets do not, I repeat, do not give you mind reading capabilities. You obviously do not know what I believe, yet you think you do.