Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[AllieBaba]

Naw, the seed is sperm.

Once it fertilizes the egg, you have a human.

 

[JBeukema]

the entire premise- comparing life cycles between different kingdoms- is ludicrous

next we'll get into whether viruses are organisms or machines

 

[Synthaholic]

an unborn child is a seed?


you fail biology forever

Your argument is that these organisms are the beginnings of a baby. Correct?

 

[JBeukema]

It is a human child from the point of fertilization

that is the biological reality

at what point we deem a baby a toddler, a preteen, a teenager, an adult, and an old woman has nothing at all to do with whether it's okay to kill her in cold blood

 

[Synthaholic]

Answer my question, please.

 

[PJzaBruin]

Let's address the basic flaw in your initial premise:

"A blastocyst/foetus/etc is an organism. It is alive and it is genetically human.* These are verifiable, objective, demonstrable scientific facts. It is all a matter of basic biology.

Therefore, the child is be definition a living human organism."

The blastocyst is not an independent organism. Yes, it is alive. Yes, it is genetically human. So is your pinky. For a child born with an extra digit, so is the 6th toe on his foot, or the 6th finger on her hand. But it is NOT a living human organism.

Until such time as it can survive independently from its mother, the fetus is more a part of the mother than it is "a living human organism."

Why couldn't you be honest about that?

 

[JBeukema]

The blastocyst is not an independent organism.

Yes, it is. Biology 101.

To compare the finger of a child to the entire child proves how stupid a troll you are. Also, plenty of organisms are dependent on others for survival, not just at the early stage of development, but even dependent on members of other species. A roundworm is not a part of your body. No more time will be wasted with you.

 

[Synthaholic]

Are you running from my question, JB?

 

[JBeukema]

your idiotic question was answered


then the latest sock puppet came in to deny biology again and claim grandma ceases to be an organism when when she's on a ventilator


why can't you people ever be honest?

 

[snjmom]

Well, it's quite obvious to most that birth is the cut off point since until that point, all sustenance is drawn from the mothers body.

And one always has the right to refuse sustenance to other organisms. If the state wants to step in and provide that sustenance, feel free to remove it from the current host and place it in a host of it's choosing.

 

[editec]

Whether or not a fetus is a child is not relevant to the discussion.

What IS relevant is who is responsible for that fetus.

Here's a test to determine who has authority over that fetus.

Is the fetus growing inside your womb?

If yes - it is your fetus and you have absolute authority over it

If no- it is none of your business, STFU.

 

[syrenn]

I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body.

The child is not your body. Biology 101. Your beloved catchphrase is, to put it plainly, fucking bullshit. You have every right to do with your body as you will so long as you harm nobody else. You may tattoo it, pierce it, and penetrate it with exotic toys all you like. You may not harm another person either with your body (eg: punching someone in the face) or in the course of doing something to your own body (eg: suicide bombing).

Nobody gives a shit what you do with your body. What's at issue is whether or not you may harm another human being- killing generally being recognized as harmful.

Its nobodies business why I had it done

Homicide has always been recognized as a social issue. If I shoot you in the face, it sure as hell is society's business why I did so, so it can be determined whether my acts are acceptable or whether I am guilty of some crime, such as homicide or manslaughter.

When you rely on emotions and refuse to address the matter honestly, you are no different than the wackos waving bibles around. You might be on the other side of the isle, but you are a mirror image of the same mindset.

Then Cesarean sectioning it out at 4 weeks, giving it birth, wont mater then if it is not part of a womans body.

 

[Ravi]

Naw, the seed is sperm.

Once it fertilizes the egg, you have a human.

No, the sperm would be more properly likened to pollen.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It is a human child from the point of fertilization

that is the biological reality

at what point we deem a baby a toddler, a preteen, a teenager, an adult, and an old woman has nothing at all to do with whether it's okay to kill her in cold blood

That is not a biological reality. There are reasons that the science of biology has terms of distinction such as zygote, embryo, fetus, for example.

 

[NYcarbineer]

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

And to think it was you who started this thread accusing the pro-choice people of not being able to make a cogent well thought out argument.

Unreal.

What about shooting it as it's crowning? Halfway out? One toe in?

Right after her water breaks?

Five minutes before that?

Three seconds before that?

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When does what change?

According to your 'reasoning'

there is absolutely no difference, by any measure of morality or criminality, between a woman who has used RU486 to terminate a pregnancy,

and Susan Smith, who for those who don't recall, was the woman who drowned her two children in her car.

Now, seriously people, be honest here...

...how many of you can wholeheartedly and without qualification agree with Beukema on his/her stance?

 

[NYcarbineer]

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

And to think it was you who started this thread accusing the pro-choice people of not being able to make a cogent well thought out argument.

Unreal.

What about shooting it as it's crowning? Halfway out? One toe in?

Right after her water breaks?

Five minutes before that?

Three seconds before that?

Three seconds before that?

Three seconds before that?

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The day before that?

Ten seconds before that?

One millisecond before that?
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When does what change?

You are an extremist with no common sense, no logic, no reason. You are hardly in a position to pass judgment on others in those realms.

 

[Immanuel]

According to your 'reasoning'

there is absolutely no difference, by any measure of morality or criminality, between a woman who has used RU486 to terminate a pregnancy,

and Susan Smith, who for those who don't recall, was the woman who drowned her two children in her car.

Now, seriously people, be honest here...

...how many of you can wholeheartedly and without qualification agree with Beukema on his/her stance?

How can anyone who ever reads things posted by JB possibly answer that question? JB is all over the place in his posts. One minute pro-life the next... kill them all. You would have to clarify what JB's stance really is.

I do agree with him though about it being a life from the moment of conception. Um, if that is his stance.

Immie

 

[NYcarbineer]

According to your 'reasoning'

there is absolutely no difference, by any measure of morality or criminality, between a woman who has used RU486 to terminate a pregnancy,

and Susan Smith, who for those who don't recall, was the woman who drowned her two children in her car.

Now, seriously people, be honest here...

...how many of you can wholeheartedly and without qualification agree with Beukema on his/her stance?

How can anyone who ever reads things posted by JB possibly answer that question? JB is all over the place in his posts. One minute pro-life the next... kill them all. You would have to clarify what JB's stance really is.

I do agree with him though about it being a life from the moment of conception. Um, if that is his stance.

Immie

Here's JB's stance verbatim:

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

So that is what you can agree or disagree with, if you prefer.

 

[Immanuel]

According to your 'reasoning'

there is absolutely no difference, by any measure of morality or criminality, between a woman who has used RU486 to terminate a pregnancy,

and Susan Smith, who for those who don't recall, was the woman who drowned her two children in her car.

Now, seriously people, be honest here...

...how many of you can wholeheartedly and without qualification agree with Beukema on his/her stance?

How can anyone who ever reads things posted by JB possibly answer that question? JB is all over the place in his posts. One minute pro-life the next... kill them all. You would have to clarify what JB's stance really is.

I do agree with him though about it being a life from the moment of conception. Um, if that is his stance.

Immie

Here's JB's stance verbatim:

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

So that is what you can agree or disagree with, if you prefer.

Well, if I wanted to search through enough of JB's posts, I think I can find where he has supported the pro-choice point of view as well, but I don't really care to do so. I am also not 100% sure that is JB's actual beliefs as he trolls.

As to answering your question. Yes, I believe the fetus is a human being and that using RU-486 or any other form of induced abortion is snuffing out its life no differently than shooting it in the head five seconds after birth. And, I will say that I don't consider sentience to be a determining factor in this debate. From the point of conception on, the offspring of a human couple is human. No one can change that.

Induced abortion is the killing of a human being under all circumstances. Whether or not it should be illegal in any or all circumstances is a completely different question.

Immie

 

[NYcarbineer]

How can anyone who ever reads things posted by JB possibly answer that question? JB is all over the place in his posts. One minute pro-life the next... kill them all. You would have to clarify what JB's stance really is.

I do agree with him though about it being a life from the moment of conception. Um, if that is his stance.

Immie

Here's JB's stance verbatim:

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

So that is what you can agree or disagree with, if you prefer.

Well, if I wanted to search through enough of JB's posts, I think I can find where he has supported the pro-choice point of view as well, but I don't really care to do so. I am also not 100% sure that is JB's actual beliefs as he trolls.

As to answering your question. Yes, I believe the fetus is a human being and that using RU-486 or any other form of induced abortion is snuffing out its life no differently than shooting it in the head five seconds after birth. And, I will say that I don't consider sentience to be a determining factor in this debate. From the point of conception on, the offspring of a human couple is human. No one can change that.

Induced abortion is the killing of a human being under all circumstances. Whether or not it should be illegal in any or all circumstances is a completely different question.

Immie

Well, then you're as irrational as Beukema.