Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Immanuel]

Here's JB's stance verbatim:

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

So that is what you can agree or disagree with, if you prefer.

Well, if I wanted to search through enough of JB's posts, I think I can find where he has supported the pro-choice point of view as well, but I don't really care to do so. I am also not 100% sure that is JB's actual beliefs as he trolls.

As to answering your question. Yes, I believe the fetus is a human being and that using RU-486 or any other form of induced abortion is snuffing out its life no differently than shooting it in the head five seconds after birth. And, I will say that I don't consider sentience to be a determining factor in this debate. From the point of conception on, the offspring of a human couple is human. No one can change that.

Induced abortion is the killing of a human being under all circumstances. Whether or not it should be illegal in any or all circumstances is a completely different question.

Immie

Well, then you're as irrational as Beukema.

Wrong, but I have been called worse.

Immie

 

[Shadow]

I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body.

The child is not your body. Biology 101. Your beloved catchphrase is, to put it plainly, fucking bullshit. You have every right to do with your body as you will so long as you harm nobody else. You may tattoo it, pierce it, and penetrate it with exotic toys all you like. You may not harm another person either with your body (eg: punching someone in the face) or in the course of doing something to your own body (eg: suicide bombing).

Nobody gives a shit what you do with your body. What's at issue is whether or not you may harm another human being- killing generally being recognized as harmful.

Its nobodies business why I had it done

Homicide has always been recognized as a social issue. If I shoot you in the face, it sure as hell is society's business why I did so, so it can be determined whether my acts are acceptable or whether I am guilty of some crime, such as homicide or manslaughter.

When you rely on emotions and refuse to address the matter honestly, you are no different than the wackos waving bibles around. You might be on the other side of the isle, but you are a mirror image of the same mindset.

Then Cesarean sectioning it out at 4 weeks, giving it birth, wont mater then if it is not part of a womans body.

This is a stupid argument for abortion. Most OBGYN's will go out of their way to talk a woman out of a cesarean. Why???

A cesarean section poses documented medical risks to the mother's health, including infections, hemorrhaging, possible injury to other organs, complications due to anesthesia and possible death.

Death stats for the mother are two to four times greater than that for a vaginal birth.

Not to mention some babies do survive the c- section and then are discarded and left to die,when they would actually survive with medical treatment.

 

[JBeukema]

It is a human child from the point of fertilization

that is the biological reality

at what point we deem a baby a toddler, a preteen, a teenager, an adult, and an old woman has nothing at all to do with whether it's okay to kill her in cold blood

That is not a biological reality. There are reasons that the science of biology has terms of distinction such as zygote, embryo, fetus, for example.

A child is a young human. Zygotes, foetuses, and toddlers are all children.

 

[JBeukema]

there is absolutely no difference, by any measure of morality or criminality, between a woman who has used RU486 to terminate a pregnancy,

and Susan Smith, who for those who don't recall, was the woman who drowned her two children in her car.

Then there you have it...

Now, seriously people, be honest here...

you already said it. You can't tell me at what point anything fundamental about the nature of the child changes, making killing her go from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing. Ergo, if it's not okay to kill someone in cold blood...

 

[JBeukema]

And to think it was you who started this thread accusing the pro-choice people of not being able to make a cogent well thought out argument.

Unreal.

What about shooting it as it's crowning? Halfway out? One toe in?

Right after her water breaks?

Five minutes before that?

Three seconds before that?

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When does what change?

You are an extremist with no common sense, no logic, no reason. You are hardly in a position to pass judgment on others in those realms.

So you can't answer the question? You can't tell me at what age it's okay to kill someone in cold blood?


Sounds like you're saying you know it to be indefensible murder o kill; an unborn child but you want to be able to do it anyway

 

[AllieBaba]

The smaller a child is, the less human it is, I guess.

 

[JBeukema]

According to your 'reasoning'

there is absolutely no difference, by any measure of morality or criminality, between a woman who has used RU486 to terminate a pregnancy,

and Susan Smith, who for those who don't recall, was the woman who drowned her two children in her car.

Now, seriously people, be honest here...

...how many of you can wholeheartedly and without qualification agree with Beukema on his/her stance?

How can anyone who ever reads things posted by JB possibly answer that question? JB is all over the place in his posts. One minute pro-life the next... kill them all. You would have to clarify what JB's stance really is.

I do agree with him though about it being a life from the moment of conception. Um, if that is his stance.

Immie

I've spelled it out in multiple threads

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...o-abortion-crowd-be-honest-6.html#post3477722

 

[NYcarbineer]

It is a human child from the point of fertilization

that is the biological reality

at what point we deem a baby a toddler, a preteen, a teenager, an adult, and an old woman has nothing at all to do with whether it's okay to kill her in cold blood

That is not a biological reality. There are reasons that the science of biology has terms of distinction such as zygote, embryo, fetus, for example.

A child is a young human. Zygotes, foetuses, and toddlers are all children.

Irrelevant semantics, and thus immaterial in this argument.

 

[JBeukema]

How can anyone who ever reads things posted by JB possibly answer that question? JB is all over the place in his posts. One minute pro-life the next... kill them all. You would have to clarify what JB's stance really is.

I do agree with him though about it being a life from the moment of conception. Um, if that is his stance.

Immie

Here's JB's stance verbatim:

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

So that is what you can agree or disagree with, if you prefer.

Well, if I wanted to search through enough of JB's posts, I think I can find where he has supported the pro-choice point of view as well

The idiot quoted a pro-choice argument



The idiots don't even recognize their own arguments



Most 'choice'rs aren't pro-choice because they believe any of their arguments

they can't tell you why killing a baby is okay at one point but not at another

they can't make any rational or cogent arguments

they just want to be allowed to kill their babies

it's all about convenience and not being punished for their actions; there is nothing more to it

 

[NYcarbineer]

What about shooting it as it's crowning? Halfway out? One toe in?

Right after her water breaks?

Five minutes before that?

Three seconds before that?

Three seconds before that?

Three seconds before that?

Three seconds before that?

Three seconds before that?

Three seconds before that?

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Three seconds before that?

Three seconds before that?

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The day before that?

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When does what change?

You are an extremist with no common sense, no logic, no reason. You are hardly in a position to pass judgment on others in those realms.

So you can't answer the question? You can't tell me at what age it's okay to kill someone in cold blood?


Sounds like you're saying you know it to be indefensible murder o kill; an unborn child but you want to be able to do it anyway

I support the principles established Roe v. Wade pretty much to the letter. In my own words, I support a reasonable window of opportunity for a woman to get an abortion, protected as a right constitutionally, and thereafter I support the matter being open to legislative determination by the individual states. I support the trimester delineation established by the SCOTUS as reasonable.

 

[JBeukema]

Here's JB's stance verbatim:

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

So that is what you can agree or disagree with, if you prefer.

Well, if I wanted to search through enough of JB's posts, I think I can find where he has supported the pro-choice point of view as well, but I don't really care to do so. I am also not 100% sure that is JB's actual beliefs as he trolls.

As to answering your question. Yes, I believe the fetus is a human being and that using RU-486 or any other form of induced abortion is snuffing out its life no differently than shooting it in the head five seconds after birth. And, I will say that I don't consider sentience to be a determining factor in this debate. From the point of conception on, the offspring of a human couple is human. No one can change that.

Induced abortion is the killing of a human being under all circumstances. Whether or not it should be illegal in any or all circumstances is a completely different question.

Immie

Well, then you're as irrational as Beukema.

And there you have it. Carib thinks letting 12-year-old rape victim abort her pregnancy is irrational. And that not letting her get that abortion is also irrational.

Like most adherents of abortionism, he has only emotion guiding him and there is no room for cogent thought

 

[JBeukema]

The smaller a child is, the less human it is, I guess.

I wonder how they feel about dwarfs

 

[JBeukema]

here are reasons that the science of biology has terms of distinction such as zygote, embryo, fetus, for example.

Irrelevant semantics, and thus immaterial in this argument.

Why can't you make up your mind or stick to one story?

 

[AllieBaba]

And every pro-abortionist I've ever talked to will say that at the root of their committment to child murder is the belief that there are TOO MANY PEOPLE. They don't give a shit about the mother, the baby or any individual, they want to reduce the population. Presumably to provide themselves with a better chance of success.

It's all eugenics. They want to pick and choose who will be born, and what types have babies. The same people also believe in non-consensual euthanasia, in state rearing of children, and sterilization of certain populations. They don't admit it up front, but if you get into a conversation with any of them about any of those topics, they can't hide it.

 

[Gadawg73]

The child is not your body. Biology 101. Your beloved catchphrase is, to put it plainly, fucking bullshit. You have every right to do with your body as you will so long as you harm nobody else. You may tattoo it, pierce it, and penetrate it with exotic toys all you like. You may not harm another person either with your body (eg: punching someone in the face) or in the course of doing something to your own body (eg: suicide bombing).

Nobody gives a shit what you do with your body. What's at issue is whether or not you may harm another human being- killing generally being recognized as harmful.
Homicide has always been recognized as a social issue. If I shoot you in the face, it sure as hell is society's business why I did so, so it can be determined whether my acts are acceptable or whether I am guilty of some crime, such as homicide or manslaughter.

When you rely on emotions and refuse to address the matter honestly, you are no different than the wackos waving bibles around. You might be on the other side of the isle, but you are a mirror image of the same mindset.

Then Cesarean sectioning it out at 4 weeks, giving it birth, wont mater then if it is not part of a womans body.

This is a stupid argument for abortion. Most OBGYN's will go out of their way to talk a woman out of a cesarean. Why???

A cesarean section poses documented medical risks to the mother's health, including infections, hemorrhaging, possible injury to other organs, complications due to anesthesia and possible death.

Death stats for the mother are two to four times greater than that for a vaginal birth.

Not to mention some babies do survive the c- section and then are discarded and left to die,when they would actually survive with medical treatment.

BS, if there ANY complications during labor MOST doctors want to do a cesarean. That decreases their liability if there are problems from waiting on the vaginal delivery.
Chord wrapped around the baby or any lowering of the baby heart rate are the top 2 reasons.

 

[AllieBaba]

Omg you're an idiot.

 

[AllieBaba]

Please, nobody listen to anything gadawg says about pregnancy or delivery. He has no fucking idea what he's talking about.

 

[JBeukema]

I support the principles established Roe v. Wade

You mean perjury? Norma McCorvey has stated repeatedly that her entire story was bullshit


The case was decided based on perjury and therefore is null and void. If it were any other case, it would have been overturned and re-heard.

support the trimester delineation established by the SCOTUS as reasonable.

Why? Why is killing a woman's baby okay today but not in twelve hours?

Do you have any reason or argument other than that you want to be allowed to kill babies?

 

[JBeukema]

Then Cesarean sectioning it out at 4 weeks, giving it birth, wont mater then if it is not part of a womans body.

This is a stupid argument for abortion. Most OBGYN's will go out of their way to talk a woman out of a cesarean. Why???

A cesarean section poses documented medical risks to the mother's health, including infections, hemorrhaging, possible injury to other organs, complications due to anesthesia and possible death.

Death stats for the mother are two to four times greater than that for a vaginal birth.

Not to mention some babies do survive the c- section and then are discarded and left to die,when they would actually survive with medical treatment.

BS, if there ANY complications during labor MOST doctors want to do a cesarean. That decreases their liability if there are problems from waiting on the vaginal delivery.
Chord wrapped around the baby or any lowering of the baby heart rate are the top 2 reasons.

Bullshit. The umbilical cord was around my very neck. They didn't slice my mother open; the nurse manually removed the cord from my neck so the birthing could continue.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I support the principles established Roe v. Wade

You mean perjury? Norma McCorvey has stated repeatedly that her entire story was bullshit


The case was decided based on perjury and therefore is null and void. If it were any other case, it would have been overturned and re-heard.

support the trimester delineation established by the SCOTUS as reasonable.

Why? Why is killing a woman's baby okay today but not in twelve hours?

Do you have any reason or argument other than that you want to be allowed to kill babies?

You've really begun to embarass yourself.

I guess your desire for cogent reasoned arguments wasn't applicable to you.