Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Ravi]

Posting pictures of the unborn simply is an appeal to emotion. Appeals to emotion are stupid when considering laws.

Bullshit. If it evokes an emotion in YOU that's one thing. But alternative uses of illustration of the growth of the fetus aren't emotion-laden.

There's more than one use for the pictures, just admit that.

Uh, no...it is an appeal to emotion. At least be honest with yourself.

 

[Immanuel]

Posting pictures of the unborn simply is an appeal to emotion. Appeals to emotion are stupid when considering laws.

Now why on earth would you say that first part... unless maybe, it did cause an emotional reaction on your part... and here I thought you were a stone cold Bit... er, I think I hear the coffee pot calling me again!

Laws are refuted using emotional arguments all the time. In fact, I would say that is why we are having these discussions today. In many ways, Roe was argued for using appeals to emotion to begin with.

Immie

j/k on the stone cold Bit... part, Ravi.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Again:

I believe it is in society's best interest to allow a woman a reasonable window of opportunity to terminate a pregnancy FOR ANY REASON.

Why is it best for society to allow homicide for any reason when the victim is very young?

I believe that opportunity should be constitutionally protected as a right.

Why?

I believe that the first trimester time period of a pregnancy fairly represents that 'window'.

Why? What, exactly, changes at the end of the first trimester that makes killing the child in cold blood no longer okay?

You didn't tell me why I'm wrong. You didn't state your own position and tell us why it's better. In other words, you have absolutely no argument against my position. That means my position must be logically unassailable.

 

[Immanuel]

Again:

I believe it is in society's best interest to allow a woman a reasonable window of opportunity to terminate a pregnancy FOR ANY REASON.

Why is it best for society to allow homicide for any reason when the victim is very young?

Why?

I believe that the first trimester time period of a pregnancy fairly represents that 'window'.

Why? What, exactly, changes at the end of the first trimester that makes killing the child in cold blood no longer okay?

You didn't tell me why I'm wrong. You didn't state your own position and tell us why it's better. In other words, you have absolutely no argument against my position. That means my position must be logically unassailable.

He's not going to for at least a little while.

For some reason, the ban hammer fell. Not sure why, but just thought I would let you know as you don't seem to have noticed yet.

Immie

 

[NYcarbineer]

Still haven't seen anyone answer these

Is shooting you in the face okay?


If not, why not and and what moment did something change about your fundamental nature change that made killing you in cold blood go from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing?

Does my right to do as I will with or to my own body and property extend to acts which cause harm to another or does it not?

How old were you when killing you went from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing and why did it suddenly become wrong to kill you?
​

Why haven't you answered your own question? Or is it fair to say that you believe an abortion is homicide from conception on?

Is that your position?

 

[NYcarbineer]

I find it very sad that you see the first picture not as a developing human being but rather as an utterly disposable 'thing' just because it has not yet developed enough to survive on it's own outside of the womb.

And at 4 weeks an embryo is indistinguishable from any other animal embryo.

No, it isn't. Just because YOU are uneducated in embryology (and basic biology) and have no idea what to look for doesn't mean the differences aren't clear. I couldn't tell poison ivy from poison oak from any other plant in the forest, but that doesn't mean they're indistinguishable. It just means I don't know shit about botany.

I'll never understand why people think their personal ignorance is some sort of conclusive debating point.

What are the real life tangible biological/physical similarities between a 4 week old embryo and a born person, other than their DNA and other than their being both classified as human?

 

[Ravi]

Why is it best for society to allow homicide for any reason when the victim is very young?

Why?

Why? What, exactly, changes at the end of the first trimester that makes killing the child in cold blood no longer okay?

You didn't tell me why I'm wrong. You didn't state your own position and tell us why it's better. In other words, you have absolutely no argument against my position. That means my position must be logically unassailable.

He's not going to for at least a little while.

For some reason, the ban hammer fell. Not sure why, but just thought I would let you know as you don't seem to have noticed yet.

Immie

Good. I hope it was for his repeated claims that he had the right to rape another poster.

 

[Immanuel]

You didn't tell me why I'm wrong. You didn't state your own position and tell us why it's better. In other words, you have absolutely no argument against my position. That means my position must be logically unassailable.

He's not going to for at least a little while.

For some reason, the ban hammer fell. Not sure why, but just thought I would let you know as you don't seem to have noticed yet.

Immie

Good. I hope it was for his repeated claims that he had the right to rape another poster.

I said I wasn't "sure" what the reasons were for it. But if I were going to bet on it, that might have something to do with it.

Immie

 

[AllieBaba]

Posting pictures of the unborn simply is an appeal to emotion. Appeals to emotion are stupid when considering laws.

That's right. FUCK THE TRUTH! FUCK EDUCATION!

BTW, exactly how do you justify abortion? I bet it's an appeal to emotion as all pro-abortion arguments are. Because the science and the facts don't bear out a single one of the pro abortion arguments.

The argument that women will be forced to deliver monster children at huge risk to their own life...a lie, and appeal to emotion.

The argument that huge numbers of rape victims will be branded as sluts and forced to raise unwanted children...a lie and appeal to emotion.

The argument that abortion reduces the numbers of abortions, the numbers of dead women, the incidence of child abuse...all lies and appeals to emotion.

 

[AllieBaba]

And Ravi, you never look so foolish as when you offer up your thoughts and ignorance on the LAW and science. Which is why you're so entertaining in any discussion about abortion. You are given the opportunity to make an ass of yourself in spades!

 

[Ravi]

Posting pictures of the unborn simply is an appeal to emotion. Appeals to emotion are stupid when considering laws.

That's right. FUCK THE TRUTH! FUCK EDUCATION!

BTW, exactly how do you justify abortion? I bet it's an appeal to emotion as all pro-abortion arguments are. Because the science and the facts don't bear out a single one of the pro abortion arguments.

The argument that women will be forced to deliver monster children at huge risk to their own life...a lie, and appeal to emotion.

The argument that huge numbers of rape victims will be branded as sluts and forced to raise unwanted children...a lie and appeal to emotion.

The argument that abortion reduces the numbers of abortions, the numbers of dead women, the incidence of child abuse...all lies and appeals to emotion.

I've never made any of those arguments.

 

[Anguille]

Hard to answer, isnt it? Especially when it comes to your own personal ife.

No, you ignorant troll, it's hard to answer when YOU'RE NOT AT THE FUCKING COMPUTER BECAUSE YOU'RE OUT HAVING A FUCKING LIFE.

Shut the fuck up and wait until I get around to you.

Hmmmn ... looks like Cecil's plot to intimidate IMEURU has backfired. She's got herself into such a frenzy she's frothing at the mouth. Looks like Imeuru is not as easy to bully as was that nice woman Gina what was her name that Cecilie chased away.

 

[Vanquish]

Posting pictures of the unborn simply is an appeal to emotion. Appeals to emotion are stupid when considering laws.

That's right. FUCK THE TRUTH! FUCK EDUCATION!

BTW, exactly how do you justify abortion? I bet it's an appeal to emotion as all pro-abortion arguments are. Because the science and the facts don't bear out a single one of the pro abortion arguments.

The argument that women will be forced to deliver monster children at huge risk to their own life...a lie, and appeal to emotion.

The argument that huge numbers of rape victims will be branded as sluts and forced to raise unwanted children...a lie and appeal to emotion.

The argument that abortion reduces the numbers of abortions, the numbers of dead women, the incidence of child abuse...all lies and appeals to emotion.

I've never made any of those arguments.

So? You've never denounced people on your side (at least not in this thread) for using emotion. Only your opponent. That makes you far from objective.

 

[Anguille]

Response to 1117 to Immie...yeah. Thats why Im doing it this way.

Response to 1118 to Zoom...ang said you and she are not corresponding in pm and obviously she is correct since her pms are not allowing correspondence.

She is incorrect . . .it wasn't recent it was more like a year and a half ago or something and at that time she could receive pms.

Oh, now I get what IMEURU was talking about.

The pm between me and Ang happened ages ago, not recently. Thanks Immie.

I have no memory of ever exchanging PMs with you Boink. And if I had and you had PMed me about wanting to discuss further in PM something we had been discussing publically in a thread I would have told you to keep it on the thread. It has always been my policy to discuss the issues openly. I rarely PM. I keep my box full because I find pm pop-ups annoying and most are just some generic thank you for rep. Anyone who has anything to say to me can write on my wall.

Really wasn't going to respond to you about this any further but since you can't stop bringing it up . . .

We were in an abortion thread you were making claims about the fetus not being a human. I posted the following picture to show you exactly what it is that gets aborted; that it IS in fact a human being. I'm posting the link to the pic here but in that thread I posted the actual pic.

http://akagaga.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/aborted_7_month_fetus1.jpg

You ranted on about me using that pic as some kind of 'shock' thing, rambled a bit about photo shop and said you were going to leave the thread. My response to your 'shock' statement was: No I didn't use it as shock. Why in the world would I do that? I posted it to show you what an abortion does, what is actually removed from the uterus.

In an + rep comment to you I again stated that I didn't mean to post that pic as shock and even said that I should have thought a bit and just posted the link (not sure if that last part was in the rep comment on in the actual thread).

Because revealing pm conversations aren't allowed I can't say what your reply to me was, but generally speaking it was along the lines of 'ok, I thought it was for shock. I'll think over what you said about that picture and get back to you'. Which you never did, either in pm or in that thread. You disappeared from the boards for quite awhile, if memory serves. You have a habit of doing that.

You can spin this anyway you want. Anyone who knows me knows I'm not lying or making this up. Why in the world would I do that? I'm not a button pusher, instigator or attention whore.

Zoombie, you are the one who can't let go of this. I don't know why you are so obsessed. I'm here now debating with you (though not for long if you keep up the hysteria) so what exactly is your beef about me supposedly not getting back to you about something "a year and a half ago or something"? Your endless rant over this and your ridiculous complaint that I disappear from the boards from time to time says more about you than about me. Ever consider that I might have more important things to do than hang out at USMB? Sorry if you yourself do not.

I'm not a button pusher, instigator or attention whore.

 

[Anguille]

You don't have to defend posting the pictures, Z-B. You know why you posted them and that's good enough for all us. The fact that the pictures were "shocking" to someone proves our point even further - the fact that the baby is out of everyone's minds and they don't confront themselves with the living nature of what they're killing...THAT SHOWS that they don't want to confront the issue honestly and directly.

(It's also the reason why I made my "clear pregnancy belly" comment )

Syrenn has admitted that the cells are alive and growing. That's all we need to win. That she has some arbitrary, unprovable milestone set up for when it's ok to kill proves nothing. We win. She loses. End of story.

I don't recall anyone being shocked by photos in this thread. Certainly not me here or elsewhere. I've already stated that I seen photos like the ones described and do not find them disturbing. I'm not squeamish. I've assisted in surgery and find the insides of bodies to be interesting to look at.

I didn't get your clear belly comment a while back. I don't think it would achieve the effect you would be hoping for.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Posting pictures of the unborn simply is an appeal to emotion. Appeals to emotion are stupid when considering laws.

That's right. FUCK THE TRUTH! FUCK EDUCATION!

BTW, exactly how do you justify abortion? I bet it's an appeal to emotion as all pro-abortion arguments are. Because the science and the facts don't bear out a single one of the pro abortion arguments.

The argument that women will be forced to deliver monster children at huge risk to their own life...a lie, and appeal to emotion.

The argument that huge numbers of rape victims will be branded as sluts and forced to raise unwanted children...a lie and appeal to emotion.

The argument that abortion reduces the numbers of abortions, the numbers of dead women, the incidence of child abuse...all lies and appeals to emotion.

I made my case for choice as a right explicitly in a post below. Free of any emotion or other fallacious arguments. I assume you disagree with it. Why don't you don't us what you disagree with and why.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It does have a life of it's own and by removing it from it's proper environment before it is able to survive kills that life.

It is not a life on its own at 4 weeks.. It requires another willing subject to be its host.

Using 'host' further dehumanizes a fetus. Good job.

Her body, her choice. You see it as killing another human being, the pregnant woman having that abortion may see it differently. Again...it is a matter of opinion.

Of course they do. If they admitted that what they were doing by getting an abortion was ending an individual human being's life they'd likely be too much of a coward to go through with it. Well, hopefully anyway . . .

You said that at 9 weeks is where you draw the line on abortion. Why? What changes? A 9 week old fetus can't live outside the womb any better than a 4 week old fetus can.

My threshold for removing a fetus is about 9 weeks, that is my end point. In that time a person has had enough time to make up their minds. Anything longer then that the pregnancy has gone to far in my opinion, and it is viable...

Nine weeks is the range for the use of RU 486. Should RU 486 be legal? If not why not?

Specifically RU 486 or the equivalent, used in its effective time span of about 9 weeks.

Setting aside all other arguments.

 

[Anguille]

He's not going to for at least a little while.

For some reason, the ban hammer fell. Not sure why, but just thought I would let you know as you don't seem to have noticed yet.

Immie

Good. I hope it was for his repeated claims that he had the right to rape another poster.

I said I wasn't "sure" what the reasons were for it. But if I were going to bet on it, that might have something to do with it.

Immie

I generally oppose bannings but I must admit I'm glad to see him STFUed for a bit. His rape obsession was scary. I hope it's just something that comes out in cyberspace and not elsewhwere

 

[Immanuel]

Good. I hope it was for his repeated claims that he had the right to rape another poster.

I said I wasn't "sure" what the reasons were for it. But if I were going to bet on it, that might have something to do with it.

Immie

I generally oppose bannings but I must admit I'm glad to see him STFUed for a bit. His rape obsession was scary. I hope it's just something that comes out in cyberspace and not elsewhwere

I have no problems with banning. Sometime children need to be given a time out.

It all depends on the reasoning behind it. If it is discipline, I am okay with it. If it is to shut someone up because the mod doesn't like their point of view, (I don't think that was the reason for this) then I do have a problem with it.

I suspect that JB was given plenty of warnings regarding whatever the infraction(s) was or were and that for whatever reason the mods chose to put him in a time out.

Immie

 

[NYcarbineer]

Again:

I believe it is in society's best interest to allow a woman a reasonable window of opportunity to terminate a pregnancy FOR ANY REASON. I believe that opportunity should be constitutionally protected as a right.

I believe that the first trimester time period of a pregnancy fairly represents that 'window'.

I believe that after the first trimester, it is reasonable to allow the people of the individual states to regulate abortion in any manner they see fit.

Whoever thinks I'm wrong in any of that can step up and say so, and please, tell me what EXACTLY is wrong with my specific views and what your opposing view is specifically.

Otherwise I'll assume no one finds fault in my position.

Well half a day later an no one wants to make a reasoned substantive argument as to why my positions are wrong? and what should replace them?

We're all suddenly pro-choice here?