Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Cecilie1200]

Now let me ask this. Those who think its so wrong to abort.....WHAT IF your daughter was 13. Her grandpa raped her and she got pregnant. Would you REALLY insist that your child carry the child made from an incestuous rape because the fetus is alive and a baby and has the right to live even though your daughter screams at the very thought?

The silence is deafening.

I hate people who think they get to set a time limit on when people are and aren't around to respond ALMOST as much as I hate people who play at being a victim and try to use it as a bludgeon. You'll get a fucking answer when I decide you're fucking important enough for me to get around to sitting at the computer to answer you, which will be as soon as I'm done with all the OTHER things in my life that matter more than you do, like picking lint out of my belly button. Got it?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Hard to answer, isnt it? Especially when it comes to your own personal ife.

No, you ignorant troll, it's hard to answer when YOU'RE NOT AT THE FUCKING COMPUTER BECAUSE YOU'RE OUT HAVING A FUCKING LIFE.

Shut the fuck up and wait until I get around to you.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The silence is deafening.

You know what? I don't know what I'd do and I hope to never find out. But IF I agreed for my daughter to get an abortion it would be with the full knowledge that she would be killing an innocent human being and we'd all have to live with that FACT for the rest of our lives. Best answer I can honestly give you, Grace.

Thanks for responding. Yet, you and others have not even considered or heard me when I tried to say I felt exactly the same way. I was accused of wanting back patting and "woe is me" and its not "all about you, Grace" and it was an "inconvenience" and I should have "kept my legs closed".

If you would be so kind as to go back to the very first thread of MANY on this subject this past week, you will see my first utterance of "it NOT an easy decision to make". And from there on out, I didnt make it about me at all. You and others did. And I defended myself.
Which means....its bad if I did it. But its ok if its done to your kid as long as she is aware of how it will affect her forever if she aborts it. Thats what I got out of it anyway.

Maybe that's because it WASN'T personal until you decided to make it that way. No one on this thread ever said ANYTHING about abortion related to rape . . . until you did. You decided to take a conversation about abortion in general, nearly all of which is NOT due to rape, and to make it all about YOUR trauma. So yeah, you got your ass reamed for whining and playing the victim. And you deserved it.

Apparently, it IS an easy decision to make for many women, but you can't seem to understand that YOU AREN'T ALL WOMEN.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Okay, just for the record, I'm going out with my friends now. In case anyone decides to post any more retarded, inane hypotheticals and then crow about their "victory" because I'm not answering, it's because I'm not here.

Just wanted to clear that up right now.

 

[syrenn]

That's it? The fact that it's indistinguishable makes it ok to murder? Wow. You really need to stop rationalizing so hard there.

You're admitting that it's life. It is alive. You're stopping that life. End of story.

C-section it out and let have its life of its own. That is not murder. If it dies it dies. End of story.

I have never said it that it is not living human tissue. I do say it does not have a life of its own. Do try and keep up.

It does have a life of it's own and by removing it from it's proper environment before it is able to survive kills that life.

It is not a life on its own at 4 weeks.. It requires another willing subject to be its host.

 

[syrenn]

It's not just religious. I am pro-life for entirely NON-religious reasons. From the moment of conception it's life. All that's ever going to be there is there. Nothing else needed or added.

Is it a life of its own or just living tissue?

If it is a stand alone life, there should be no reason it cannot be removed from an unwilling host.

If it needs a host then it is not a life of its own, and requires the cooperation of the host. The host has the final say about providing that service.

Your're right, the mother has the final say. And if her choice is to abort then her choice is to kill another human being.

Her body, her choice. You see it as killing another human being, the pregnant woman having that abortion may see it differently. Again...it is a matter of opinion.

 

[Charles_Main]

C-section it out and let have its life of its own. That is not murder. If it dies it dies. End of story.

I have never said it that it is not living human tissue. I do say it does not have a life of its own. Do try and keep up.

It does have a life of it's own and by removing it from it's proper environment before it is able to survive kills that life.

It is not a life on its own at 4 weeks.. It requires another willing subject to be its host.

syrenn I really like you, but that is just pure BS. Speaking scientifically it is life. It is Cells that are dividing and growing into a Human Being. I support the right to an abortion in some cases, but come on stop playing semantics.

Why is it Liberals will go out of their way to save a single celled amoeba in some lake, but want to try and tell us that a fetus is not life.

I believe in freedom of choice just like you, I just think, unless there are some extenuating circumstances that a woman should have the baby, BECAUSE SHE MADE the choice to have sex, and choices have consequences.

It makes it harder to like you when you try and argue a fetus is not a life. As long as the woman does not mistreat her body, or have it removed that fetus has a very HIGH % of being born, that is undeniable. To argue it is not life is simply disgusting if you ask me.

My conservative/Libertarian Views on the Power of Government. Would not allow me to support banning Abortion, but I sure wish less happened. Definitely less of the ones that make up the vast majority of Abortions. Which are carried out not because there is some birth defect, or threat to the mothers kufe, or the Mother was rapped, but simply because the woman does not want to have a baby. How can that not trouble your conscience when that happens?

2 Million potential Human Beings, wiped out every year in the country. The Richest nation in the history of the world killing 2 million babies a year, then important more then that in immigrants each year. Where is the sanity.

 

[syrenn]

Agree. Causing direct harm to another is a different matter. Or should raping grace and bombing a police station be legal, too?

Again, C-sections it out. Give it birth. That is not causing harm to anything that has a stand alone life.

Do try and stick with one subject. Are you talking about the unborn or something else?

Babies dont usually live when they are aborted. So what is your point?

How to Understand the Hysterectomy or Cesarean Section Abortion Procedure

How to Understand the Hysterectomy or Cesarean Section Abortion Procedure | eHow.com

Do i say c-section abortions?..no, i sure don't.

I say c-section to give it birth. Same as they do with babies. Carefully.

 

[sinister59]

Okay, just for the record, I'm going out with my friends now. In case anyone decides to post any more retarded, inane hypotheticals and then crow about their "victory" because I'm not answering, it's because I'm not here.

Just wanted to clear that up right now.

wow .
you really think this way ? or are you just screwing with people ?
you know kids use to be not a viable human till 5 years old , I know thats just Roman , but you believe as soon as the egg divides you got one ?
you rant , you rave , but your body is yours , no one else's body is ,
you want to whine call them names ? cool but you have no rights above theirs , so really unless its your ass swelling up shut the fuck up .
the idea of a three day waiting period if bull shit and you know it .
I hope they give away the morning after pill , you sure as hell want take responsibility fore them .
and if you are the orphanages are full .

 

[syrenn]

First of all, a fetus is more of a symbiote than a parasite. Second of all, it's just another example of your extreme dishonesty - the point of this thread - that you think YOU have the right to tell someone ELSE that it's good that they see that the baby isn't the mother's body, when YOU are the one who keeps trumpeting, "A woman has a right to do what she wants with her body".

Thanks for demonstrating yet again how your position is based on nothing but self-serving lies with all your flip-flopping and topic-hopping. "It's a woman's body; no, wait, it's a parasite and separate".

Pathetic.

It is not a symoiote if one half of the equation wants out of the deal its not a symbiotic relationship. A symbiotic relationship requires two willing participants where EACH gets something out of the deal.

Just as the word "life" is not defined by your own personal whims and preference, so the words "symbiote" and "parasite" are not. You REALLY need to get over the idea that the universe shapes itself to your desires, because God complexes are REALLY unattractive.



Of course you're not telling anyone they're wrong. That's because the people you disagree with AREN'T wrong, and you have no hard facts on which to accuse them of being wrong. I'm glad to know you realize that everything you've said is your opinion, containing no fact whatsoever, but it would be even nicer if you recognized how little your opinion actually means in the face of fact.

For the record, JB hasn't flipped once. YOU, on the other hand, have made a habit of taking whatever position serves your agenda at the moment, and then airily abandoning it for the opposite if you think THAT will work better.

Hence the thread title "Why Can't the Pro-Abortion Crowd Be Honest?" The answer, of course, is because the truth contradicts their agenda.



When in doubt, just fall back on "Abortion should be legal because abortion is legal!" It makes no fucking sense, and makes you sound like a drooling moron, but hey, that's never bothered you before in service to your agenda, so why should it now?

Where have i flipped on any of the topics being discussed in this tread?

Oh, please. You've been stridently screaming about "a woman's body" all along, as just above, and THEN you flip over to "invader alien to her body". Which is it, Ms. Honesty and Logic? Is it okay to abort because it's part of her body, or is it okay to abort because you're having "Aliens" flashbacks?

If it is a life, c- section it out, give it birth at any time in its gestation, and let it have its life to itself.
If it NOT part of a womans body it is a parasite and a woman has the right to take it out of her body.
If it IS part of womans body then she has the right to do what she wants to with HER body.

So basically, you don't HAVE to care about facts, because goddamn it, you're going to do what you want no matter what. Any way you look at it, the ONLY operative point here is that you want to fuck around without consequences.

And then you wonder why your position isn't respected for its honesty and logic.

I don't fuck around. You may, but i sure don't. I understand the consequences very well. I also understand the finer points of a consensual relationship of which i would think you would understand too. Carrying a baby to term requires the consent of the woman doing the carrying. If you dont like that to bad. If you don't understand the difference between something that is living and something that has a life of ITS OWN thats your problem If you don't get the finer points of my arguments that says more about you then me.

 

[syrenn]

I find it very sad that you see the first picture not as a developing human being but rather as an utterly disposable 'thing' just because it has not yet developed enough to survive on it's own outside of the womb.

And at 4 weeks an embryo is indistinguishable from any other animal embryo.

No, it isn't. Just because YOU are uneducated in embryology (and basic biology) and have no idea what to look for doesn't mean the differences aren't clear. I couldn't tell poison ivy from poison oak from any other plant in the forest, but that doesn't mean they're indistinguishable. It just means I don't know shit about botany.

I'll never understand why people think their personal ignorance is some sort of conclusive debating point.

And now you area an embryologist along with a biologist? Amazing.

I seem to understand it better then you do. The only difference in the first few weeks is the chromosomes.

 

[Shadow]

Again, C-sections it out. Give it birth. That is not causing harm to anything that has a stand alone life.

Do try and stick with one subject. Are you talking about the unborn or something else?

Babies dont usually live when they are aborted. So what is your point?

How to Understand the Hysterectomy or Cesarean Section Abortion Procedure

How to Understand the Hysterectomy or Cesarean Section Abortion Procedure | eHow.com

Do i say c-section abortions?..no, i sure don't.

I say c-section to give it birth. Same as they do with babies. Carefully.

Another stupid statement from you. Good job.

So you think performing a c section before the baby is fully developed is not an abortion then? Because the medical community disagrees with you.

 

[syrenn]

It does have a life of it's own and by removing it from it's proper environment before it is able to survive kills that life.

It is not a life on its own at 4 weeks.. It requires another willing subject to be its host.

syrenn I really like you, but that is just pure BS. Speaking scientifically it is life. It is Cells that are dividing and growing into a Human Being. I support the right to an abortion in some cases, but come on stop playing semantics.

Why is it Liberals will go out of their way to save a single celled amoeba in some lake, but want to try and tell us that a fetus is not life.

I believe in freedom of choice just like you, I just think, unless there are some extenuating circumstances that a woman should have the baby, BECAUSE SHE MADE the choice to have sex, and choices have consequences.

It makes it harder to like you when you try and argue a fetus is not a life. As long as the woman does not mistreat her body, or have it removed that fetus has a very HIGH % of being born, that is undeniable. To argue it is not life is simply disgusting if you ask me.

My conservative/Libertarian Views on the Power of Government. Would not allow me to support banning Abortion, but I sure wish less happened. Definitely less of the ones that make up the vast majority of Abortions. Which are carried out not because there is some birth defect, or threat to the mothers kufe, or the Mother was rapped, but simply because the woman does not want to have a baby. How can that not trouble your conscience when that happens?

2 Million potential Human Beings, wiped out every year in the country. The Richest nation in the history of the world killing 2 million babies a year, then important more then that in immigrants each year. Where is the sanity.

I do not say it is not living. I say it does not have a life of its own at 4 weeks. It is not a viable stand alone "life".

I agree, if it stays in the womb until fully developed it has a high chance of being born normally. However that requires the willing participation of the woman with the womb.

I also do not approve of the amount of abortions that are happening, nor do i approve of the amount of unwanted children that ARE being born.

 

[Zoom-boing]

C-section it out and let have its life of its own. That is not murder. If it dies it dies. End of story.

I have never said it that it is not living human tissue. I do say it does not have a life of its own. Do try and keep up.

It does have a life of it's own and by removing it from it's proper environment before it is able to survive kills that life.

It is not a life on its own at 4 weeks.. It requires another willing subject to be its host.

Using 'host' further dehumanizes a fetus. Good job.

Is it a life of its own or just living tissue?

If it is a stand alone life, there should be no reason it cannot be removed from an unwilling host.

If it needs a host then it is not a life of its own, and requires the cooperation of the host. The host has the final say about providing that service.

Your're right, the mother has the final say. And if her choice is to abort then her choice is to kill another human being.

Her body, her choice. You see it as killing another human being, the pregnant woman having that abortion may see it differently. Again...it is a matter of opinion.

Of course they do. If they admitted that what they were doing by getting an abortion was ending an individual human being's life they'd likely be too much of a coward to go through with it. Well, hopefully anyway . . .

You said that at 9 weeks is where you draw the line on abortion. Why? What changes? A 9 week old fetus can't live outside the womb any better than a 4 week old fetus can.

My threshold for removing a fetus is about 9 weeks, that is my end point. In that time a person has had enough time to make up their minds. Anything longer then that the pregnancy has gone to far in my opinion, and it is viable...

 

[Zoom-boing]

It is not a life on its own at 4 weeks.. It requires another willing subject to be its host.

syrenn I really like you, but that is just pure BS. Speaking scientifically it is life. It is Cells that are dividing and growing into a Human Being. I support the right to an abortion in some cases, but come on stop playing semantics.

Why is it Liberals will go out of their way to save a single celled amoeba in some lake, but want to try and tell us that a fetus is not life.

I believe in freedom of choice just like you, I just think, unless there are some extenuating circumstances that a woman should have the baby, BECAUSE SHE MADE the choice to have sex, and choices have consequences.

It makes it harder to like you when you try and argue a fetus is not a life. As long as the woman does not mistreat her body, or have it removed that fetus has a very HIGH % of being born, that is undeniable. To argue it is not life is simply disgusting if you ask me.

My conservative/Libertarian Views on the Power of Government. Would not allow me to support banning Abortion, but I sure wish less happened. Definitely less of the ones that make up the vast majority of Abortions. Which are carried out not because there is some birth defect, or threat to the mothers kufe, or the Mother was rapped, but simply because the woman does not want to have a baby. How can that not trouble your conscience when that happens?

2 Million potential Human Beings, wiped out every year in the country. The Richest nation in the history of the world killing 2 million babies a year, then important more then that in immigrants each year. Where is the sanity.

I do not say it is not living. I say it does not have a life of its own at 4 weeks. It is not a viable stand alone "life".

I agree, if it stays in the womb until fully developed it has a high chance of being born normally. However that requires the willing participation of the woman with the womb.

I also do not approve of the amount of abortions that are happening, nor do i approve of the amount of unwanted children that ARE being born.

What it IS is an individual human being in early stages of development. Surviving on its own outside of the womb -- 'stand alone life' -- doesn't negate this fact.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Response to 1117 to Immie...yeah. Thats why Im doing it this way.

Response to 1118 to Zoom...ang said you and she are not corresponding in pm and obviously she is correct since her pms are not allowing correspondence.

She is incorrect . . .it wasn't recent it was more like a year and a half ago or something and at that time she could receive pms.

Oh, now I get what IMEURU was talking about.

The pm between me and Ang happened ages ago, not recently. Thanks Immie.

I have no memory of ever exchanging PMs with you Boink. And if I had and you had PMed me about wanting to discuss further in PM something we had been discussing publically in a thread I would have told you to keep it on the thread. It has always been my policy to discuss the issues openly. I rarely PM. I keep my box full because I find pm pop-ups annoying and most are just some generic thank you for rep. Anyone who has anything to say to me can write on my wall.

Really wasn't going to respond to you about this any further but since you can't stop bringing it up . . .

We were in an abortion thread you were making claims about the fetus not being a human. I posted the following picture to show you exactly what it is that gets aborted; that it IS in fact a human being. I'm posting the link to the pic here but in that thread I posted the actual pic.

http://akagaga.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/aborted_7_month_fetus1.jpg

You ranted on about me using that pic as some kind of 'shock' thing, rambled a bit about photo shop and said you were going to leave the thread. My response to your 'shock' statement was: No I didn't use it as shock. Why in the world would I do that? I posted it to show you what an abortion does, what is actually removed from the uterus.

In an + rep comment to you I again stated that I didn't mean to post that pic as shock and even said that I should have thought a bit and just posted the link (not sure if that last part was in the rep comment on in the actual thread).

Because revealing pm conversations aren't allowed I can't say what your reply to me was, but generally speaking it was along the lines of 'ok, I thought it was for shock. I'll think over what you said about that picture and get back to you'. Which you never did, either in pm or in that thread. You disappeared from the boards for quite awhile, if memory serves. You have a habit of doing that.

You can spin this anyway you want. Anyone who knows me knows I'm not lying or making this up. Why in the world would I do that? I'm not a button pusher, instigator or attention whore.

 

[Vanquish]

You don't have to defend posting the pictures, Z-B. You know why you posted them and that's good enough for all us. The fact that the pictures were "shocking" to someone proves our point even further - the fact that the baby is out of everyone's minds and they don't confront themselves with the living nature of what they're killing...THAT SHOWS that they don't want to confront the issue honestly and directly.

(It's also the reason why I made my "clear pregnancy belly" comment )

Syrenn has admitted that the cells are alive and growing. That's all we need to win. That she has some arbitrary, unprovable milestone set up for when it's ok to kill proves nothing. We win. She loses. End of story.

 

[Immanuel]

You don't have to defend posting the pictures, Z-B. You know why you posted them and that's good enough for all us. The fact that the pictures were "shocking" to someone proves our point even further - the fact that the baby is out of everyone's minds and they don't confront themselves with the living nature of what they're killing...THAT SHOWS that they don't want to confront the issue honestly and directly.

(It's also the reason why I made my "clear pregnancy belly" comment )

Syrenn has admitted that the cells are alive and growing. That's all we need to win. That she has some arbitrary, unprovable milestone set up for when it's ok to kill proves nothing. We win. She loses. End of story.

It is strange, but I don't even find the pictures posted in this thread as being shocking. I'm amazed that anyone would. I do find pictures of aborted fetus' to be shocking, but a picture of a live child in the womb is shocking?

There is only one reason I think someone would object to the pictures presented in this thread during an abortion debate and that has to do with the fact that someone doesn't want to confront the idea that there is an actual human being within the womb and/or they don't want others to know it either.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

Posting pictures of the unborn simply is an appeal to emotion. Appeals to emotion are stupid when considering laws.

 

[Vanquish]

Posting pictures of the unborn simply is an appeal to emotion. Appeals to emotion are stupid when considering laws.

Bullshit. If it evokes an emotion in YOU that's one thing. But alternative uses of illustration of the growth of the fetus aren't emotion-laden.

There's more than one use for the pictures, just admit that.