Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Shadow]

People who defend abortion don't call their baby a human or a living being because by doing so makes them face reality. It's easier for them to defend abortion and have one if they believe in their minds it's not alive. It desensitizes them and the situation and makes what they do seem justified.

They may try...don't know if they actually succeed though. I think when it comes right down to it,the woman who end up having them all know it's a baby they are killing. Why do you think abortions give women emotional trauma's that take years to reconcile? They don't have "after" an abortion support groups for nothing you know.

 

[JBeukema]

A fetus is not a child

Yes, it is.

Child: offspring; young human

Why do you have to lie about what you advocate unless you know it's inexcusable?




1
a : an unborn or recently born person b dialect : a female infant

2
a : a young person especially between infancy and youth b : a childlike or childish person c : a person not yet of age

3
usually childe archaic : a youth of noble birth

4
a : a son or daughter of human parents b : descendant

5
: one strongly influenced by another or by a place or state of affairs

6
: product, result <barbed wire … is truly a child of the plains — W. P. Webb>

— child·less adjective
— child·less·ness noun
— with child : pregnant

Child - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Why can't you people ever be honest?

Maybe they can't find a condom or foam or the pill

Yet they can find an abortionist?

because they have been told that only sluts and whores have sex and since they aren't sluts and whores planning to have sex, they don't need them?

They don't plan to have sex, but they're sexually active?

Whycome you and your ilk can always find someone to kill your baby, but you can't find a condom?

 

[JBeukema]

People who defend abortion don't call their baby a human or a living being because by doing so makes them face reality. It's easier for them to defend abortion and have one if they believe in their minds it's not alive. It desensitizes them and the situation and makes what they do seem justified.

Not to mention the more they say it, the more likely they are to convince others sitting on the fence that a fetus is just a clump of cells and is not human.

Immie

If you say something enough times, stupid people will believe it.

Unfortunately for the pro-abortionists, the earth is not flat, no matter how many times they say it is.

 

[JBeukema]

if a women doesn't want the pregnancy ?

Then take all reasonable measures to avoid pregnancy. I don't want to get hit by a bus, so I take all reasonable measures to avoid it.

screw you .

I'll pass. If you give it up that easily, I don't want it.

who are you to tell anyone if or if not they can have sex ?

Where has anyone here done any such thing? Oh yeah, only in your head.

Why can't you people ever be honest?

but where do you get off judging others?

You're right. Let's not judge anyone or tell people what they can or can't do. Let's release all the murderers and rapists, get rid of the police, revoke all traffic laws, and enjoy our libertarian paradise.

 

[JBeukema]

Who "promotes" killing babies?

People like you in this very thread. Also, the doctors who make their monney from abortions.

Being available if necessary

93% of abortions are done for simple convenience. The only case you've made is one of convenience- is she doesn't want her baby to live.

As for abortion being 'safe', I refer you to Philadelphia.

 

[JBeukema]

On both February 18 and February 23, 2010, federal agents raided Gosnell&#8217;s abortion clinic, the Women&#8217;s Medical Society, and found &#8220;deplorable and unsanitary&#8221; conditions including blood on the floors; parts of aborted children stored in jars; post-operative recovery areas that consisted solely of recliners; padlocked emergency exits; and broken and inoperable emergency equipment. During the course of the investigation, it was discovered that Gosnell typically did not arrive at the clinic until 6 pm each day and sanctioned the performance of gynecological exams and the administration of controlled substances and prescription medication by non-licensed staff at the clinic.

 

[snjmom]

Then take all reasonable measures to avoid pregnancy. I don't want to get hit by a bus, so I take all reasonable measures to avoid it.

And when those reasonable measure fail, you should just accept the fact the bus hit you and you will have to carry on in life, crippled with no medical remedy?

Why does having sex give someone else the right to use my body for their own survival? Because biology says so?

Any other instances where we just have to agree with biology and not fight it's results and consequences?

No cancer treatment, no diabetes treatment, no STD treatment etc etc?

We kill already born children for political reasons yet abortion is the issue you can't avoid?

 

[JBeukema]

I was unaware that JB ever said a person could not have sex.

I didn't. That's why they can't cite.

Shame on you JB for forbidding sex!

Are you being sarcastic? All I ever said was that if you're old enough to fuck, you're old enough to take responsibility for your actions and your children.

If you're not ready to take all reasonable measures to avoid pregnancy and to be responsible, them keep your pants on.

That right there alone would end 93% of abortions (all those done for convenience, leaving 6%out of medical concern and 1% in cases of rape). If they really wanted less abortions, Immie, they'd tell their kids to keep their pants on until they're ready to take all reasonable measures to avoid an unwanted pregnancy and take responsibility for any children they do make, either by providing a good home or by placing the child with someone who will.

Yet they steadfastly rail against personal responsibility. They take up their pro-abortion banner because they are anti-responsibility. They do not believe anyone should ever be responsible for their decisions. They do not want to grow up. Killing their children appeals to them because it means they never have to grow up and be responsible.

No, Immie, you are wrong. Most of them do not want less abortions. If they did, they wouldn't advocate irresponsibility and having unprotected sex outside of a committed relationship. They would teach their daughters how to pick a good man, how to use a condom, and where to acquire birth control. Instead, they teach them how to find an abortionist. They would locate sources of free condoms. These women would learn how to use a condom instead of how to find someone to kill their children.

No, Immie, they don't want less abortions and it's not an emergency 93% of the time. That's why they do it again and again and again instead of showing the slightest bit of personal responsibility. Because killing your child is easier than growing up and no longer acting like a child yourself.

 

[snjmom]

Who "promotes" killing babies?

People like you in this very thread. Also, the doctors who make their monney from abortions.

Being available if necessary

93% of abortions are done for simple convenience. The only case you've made is one of convenience- is she doesn't want her baby to live.

As for abortion being 'safe', I refer you to Philadelphia.

Bullshit. Making them safe and legal does not "promote" abortion. It just makes it safe and legal. Ever try to talk a woman out of having a baby? Me neither.

Is pregnancy, delivery and the raising of a child a mere "inconvenience"? In my neck of the woods it's a life-changing event, not an inconvenience.

 

[JBeukema]

Then take all reasonable measures to avoid pregnancy. I don't want to get hit by a bus, so I take all reasonable measures to avoid it.

And when those reasonable measure fail, you should just accept the fact the bus hit you and you will have to carry on in life, crippled with no medical remedy?

Fixing my broken bones =/= killing another human being.

Why can't you people ever show the slightest bit oh honesty or intelligence?

Why does having sex give someone else the right to use my body for their own survival?

You chose to have sex. You accepted the risk of pregnancy. Time to grow up and be responsible for your decisions. Instead of killing your child, you shouldn't have engaged in sex if you weren't prepared to care for your child.

No cancer treatment, no diabetes treatment, no STD treatment etc etc?

None of those involve killing a human child.

Why can't you people ever show any sign of intellectual honesty? Why do you have to lie to yourself about the subject if what you advocate isn't wrong?

We kill already born children for political reasons

You'll have a hard time finding any instance of me supporting war in principle or any recent wars in practice.

Why do you feel the need to change the subject? If what you advocate isn't wrong, why can't you face it?

 

[JBeukema]

People who defend abortion don't call their baby a human or a living being because by doing so makes them face reality. It's easier for them to defend abortion and have one if they believe in their minds it's not alive. It desensitizes them and the situation and makes what they do seem justified.

They may try...don't know if they actually succeed though. I think when it comes right down to it,the woman who end up having them all know it's a baby they are killing. Why do you think abortions give women emotional trauma's that take years to reconcile? They don't have "after" an abortion support groups for nothing you know.

Most people who kill other human beings aren't given therapy, are they?

Why should i feel pity for the 93% cases who killed their baby out of convenience?

 

[CandySlice]

It's not about dead babies. Nobody wants to see dead babies. What the right to life groups all have in common is they are usually headed up by men. Men that want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen. It's not about abortion as much as it is about taking away the rights we women have fought so hard to achieve. Up until 1920 a woman was little more than chattle and could be dismissed and thrown out with the garbage or bartered like cattle. We've come a long way and not the Government nor anybody else needs to concern themselves with my bush! I'm managing fine, thank you.
What a woman does with her body is between her, her doctor and her God. It is nobody elses business.

Please cite where you get your information in regards to what men want. Because I think you are either dead wrong or not being honest.

Also, there are two (or more) bodies involved in every abortion. The mother and at least one of her offspring. The body of the offspring is not hers nor is its life.

Immie

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States
The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.[citation needed]

[edit] Murders In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[6][7]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.[/COLOR

]October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeAccording to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] Incidents have included:

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a &#8220;memorial lamp&#8221; for an abortion she had had there.


September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building.

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman&#8217;s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.


Anthrax threats'

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.[edit]

Outside the United States

Outside of the United States, known incidents of anti-abortion violence were committed in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

[edit] AustraliaJuly 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the chest and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[edit] Canada[edit] Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[10][11]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unidentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
[edit] Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[36]
May 18, 1992: A Toronto clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[37]
[edit] New Zealand

In 1999 Graeme White was found guilty and jailed for tunneling into an abortion clinic in a failed attempt to blow it up.

 

[JBeukema]

Bullshit. Making them safe and legal does not "promote" abortion.

Safe? Do you ever watch the news?

And yes, making it legal and then telling women it's the easy solution to the problem of having to grow the fuck up and be responsible for their actions and decisions is promoting it.

 

[Immanuel]

I was unaware that JB ever said a person could not have sex.

I didn't. That's why they can't cite.

Shame on you JB for forbidding sex!

Are you being sarcastic? All I ever said was that if you're old enough to fuck, you're old enough to take responsibility for your actions and your children.

If you're not ready to take all reasonable measures to avoid pregnancy and to be responsible, them keep your pants on.

That right there alone would end 93% of abortions (all those done for convenience, leaving 6%out of medical concern and 1% in cases of rape). If they really wanted less abortions, Immie, they'd tell their kids to keep their pants on until they're ready to take all reasonable measures to avoid an unwanted pregnancy and take responsibility for any children they do make, either by providing a good home or by placing the child with someone who will.

Yet they steadfastly rail against personal responsibility. They take up their pro-abortion banner because they are anti-responsibility. They do not believe anyone should ever be responsible for their decisions. They do not want to grow up. Killing their children appeals to them because it means they never have to grow up and be responsible.

No, Immie, you are wrong. Most of them do not want less abortions. If they did, they wouldn't advocate irresponsibility and having unprotected sex outside of a committed relationship. They would teach their daughters how to pick a good man, how to use a condom, and where to acquire birth control. Instead, they teach them how to find an abortionist. They would locate sources of free condoms. These women would learn how to use a condom instead of how to find someone to kill their children.

No, Immie, they don't want less abortions and it's not an emergency 93% of the time. That's why they do it again and again and again instead of showing the slightest bit of personal responsibility. Because killing your child is easier than growing up and no longer acting like a child yourself.

In regards to the "No, Immie, you are wrong" and "No, Immie, they don't want less abortions". You seem to be under the assumption that all who promote abortion rights have engaged in sexual promiscuity, have encouraged (or at least not discouraged) their daughters from doing so or have undergone abortions themselves or even would encourage their daughters to do so. I believe that many of them would not have one themselves, but do not want the government dictating to them whether or not they can have one. I can understand that... I don't like the government dictating to me what speed I can drive or (even though I don't smoke it) whether or not I can smoke pot.

I am not gay and I believe that marriage is the realm of the church. That does not mean that I believe that the government should a) interfere with a homosexual couple's right to be married in a church that will marry them and b) show preference to straight couples who are married in or out of the church.

I, honestly, do not believe that most "pro-choice" people want a high number of abortions. I think most people find abortion abhorrent... or at least, dagnamit I hope they do.

Immie

 

[snjmom]

You chose to have sex. You accepted the risk of pregnancy.

This is where you are wrong. Just because I chose to have sex does not mean I have accepted the risk of pregnancy, anymore than leaving my door unlocked means I have accepted the risk of home invasion and cannot kill to defend it.

My bottom line remains the same. I will use deadly force to protect my body and my property.

 

[Immanuel]

Who "promotes" killing babies?

People like you in this very thread. Also, the doctors who make their monney from abortions.

Being available if necessary

93% of abortions are done for simple convenience. The only case you've made is one of convenience- is she doesn't want her baby to live.

As for abortion being 'safe', I refer you to Philadelphia.

Bullshit. Making them safe and legal does not "promote" abortion. It just makes it safe and legal. Ever try to talk a woman out of having a baby? Me neither.

Is pregnancy, delivery and the raising of a child a mere "inconvenience"? In my neck of the woods it's a life-changing event, not an inconvenience.

The marketing slogan is "Abortion: safe, legal and rare". The problem is that they don't want it rare. By the way, rare is a subjective term. For me, rare would be 50 per year. For them, 5 million a year could be "rare".

Or maybe Planned Parenthood has recently dropped "rare" from their slogan? That would be quite telling, wouldn't it?

And yes, even with that slogan, they are, in fact, promoting abortion.

Immie

 

[JBeukema]

I can understand that... I don't like the government dictating to me what speed I can drive or (even though I don't smoke it) whether or not I can smoke pot.

Actually, it's the government telling you it's not okay to kill another human being. That's exactly what it is. It's not 'like' anything. It is the government saying whether or not homicide is okay in a given instance. Same as murder and homicide laws or castle doctrine and self-defense laws.

I am not gay and I believe that marriage is the realm of the church

Except when it is recognized by the State- then it in the realm of the State. Personally, I'm not convinced the State should play a role in recognizing such relationships, but that's another discussion.

I, honestly, do not believe that most "pro-choice" people want a high number of abortions.

They don't want less, Immie. If they did, they'd be advocating sexual responsibility and teaching women where the condoms are, not where the abortionist is.

I think most people find abortion abhorrent... or at least, dagnamit I hope they do.

Women having multiple abortions reaches record high - Times Online

 

[Shadow]

People who defend abortion don't call their baby a human or a living being because by doing so makes them face reality. It's easier for them to defend abortion and have one if they believe in their minds it's not alive. It desensitizes them and the situation and makes what they do seem justified.

They may try...don't know if they actually succeed though. I think when it comes right down to it,the woman who end up having them all know it's a baby they are killing. Why do you think abortions give women emotional trauma's that take years to reconcile? They don't have "after" an abortion support groups for nothing you know.

Most people who kill other human beings aren't given therapy, are they?

Why should i feel pity for the 93% cases who killed their baby out of convenience?

They have doctors who do nothing but specialize in abortion related therapy. And group therapy sessions are also offered to women after an abortion is performed. Why would these programs be offered if abortions were just like getting an appendix removed or passing a kidney stone? Do I say you should pity them..no..I'm saying that for the folks who think an abortion is an emotionless experience and no big deal because the so called "mass of cells" being ripped from the womb are not alive or actual "babies"...they are way off base.

 

[JBeukema]

The problem is that they don't want it rare.

[
Didn't you just say the opposite?

 

[Vast LWC]

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States

(Edited to save space, not for context. If the Mods want me to repost the whole long post, I'll be happy to...)

I'm a man, and I'm not in favor of stopping abortion. I am, however, in favor of making some sort of point of no return in a pregnancy, and making a law that forces people to stick to it, unless the mother is going to die without the procedure.

But the incidents you mention above are in fact terrorism, pure and simple.

The organizations and people involved in said incidents should be arrested and tried for terrorism, and then locked up in Guantanamo, same as any other terrorist.