Why do the God-haters persist?

[koshergrl]

There's a Christian explosion in China alone......

"
Official Chinese surveys now show that nearly one in three Chinese describe themselves as religious, an astonishing figure for an officially atheist country, where religion was banned until three decades ago.
The last 30 years of economic reform have seen an explosion of religious belief. China's government officially recognizes five religions: Protestantism, Catholicism, Buddhism, Islam and Daoism. The biggest boom of all has been in Christianity, which the government has struggled to control."



In The Land Of Mao, A Rising Tide Of Christianity Among Chinese : NPR

 

[koshergrl]

""The state was trying to control us," says one worshiper, who asked not to be named, "so we set up our own church not to follow the government, but to follow the God of the Bible."

"China's youth once trundled across the countryside spreading communism. Now, they're spreading God's word."

In The Land Of Mao, A Rising Tide Of Christianity Among Chinese : NPR

 

[koshergrl]

"
"China is experiencing a Christian explosion among intellectuals" says leading Chinese academic
The growth of Christianity among intellectuals has fundamentally "reshaped the religious landscape in China", says a leading Chinese academic and Editor of what's being described as the "most authoritative" journal on religion in the People's Republic of China."


Churches Together in Britain and Ireland - China is experiencing a Christian Explosion among Intellectu

 

[koshergrl]

"The rise in the number of Protestants, many of them Pentecostals, has been described as the greatest revival Christianity has ever known. There is even talk that by the middle of this century, Chinese Christians could outnumber those in the United States, at present more than 170 million and declining, making China the most populous Christian country on earth."

The Middle Kingdom's Problem with Religion | Standpoint

It makes sense that as American progressives successfully drive American churches into the ground, and brainwash American children...that America's strength, power, and liberty become increasingly compromised.

Meanwhile, in countries where they are moving out of oppression, Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds.

 

[koshergrl]

"Mao, on the other hand, described religion as "poison", and the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s and 70s attempted to eradicate it. Driven underground, Christianity not only survived, but with its own Chinese martyrs, it grew in strength."

Loons like dump and the rest can continue to proclaim lies, but the truth is this...people recognize that Christianity is a religion of liberty and freedom...thus it flourishes under oppression.

The more you try to wipe it out, the stronger it becomes.


BBC News - Christians in China: Is the country in spiritual crisis?

 

[Gadawg73]

Numbers in the US are declining, as our schools and media work harder and harder to portray those of faith as stupid or extremist...

But Christianity world wide is increasing.

The question has NEVER been if Christianity is bad or not.
That is the myth you have been conned into believing as the naive and gullible sheeple are easily manipulated.
The question is if this country was founded on one religion or not.
And the overwhelming undisputed evidence is the Founders WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to keep ALL religions out of government.
Because this nation was founded as a secular government.

 

[holston]

Our country wasn't built on secularism, and there are no laws that prevent us from discussing religion. And if there ever are, our country is doomed.

Sorry.

The crown monarch ruled over the common man based on the principle of divine right which was that the right of rule derives from God. At the time this country was starting the revolution every European state and country, including England, was run by that doctrine of divine right where kings and queens have a GOD given right TO RULE and any and all rebellion against them IS A SIN.
This is how this colony was run before the revolution and it was BASED on RELIGION and religious beliefs of divine right. The church directly influenced through religion every colony of England and all of Europe.
And the Founders of this great nation wanted NO PART of that shit and made damn sure that THE LAW of this country would be formed WITHOUT God or religion influencing it in any way.
Anyone that does not know this is stupid, ignorant or both. Any and all claims that this nation was founded on "Christian principles" are absurd. Just the opposite. The top Christian principle that directly affected the Founders was the religious principle of divine right.
They opposed that as indicated in The United States Constitution.
We immediately went from religion dominating government to NO religion in government.
To deny that is secularism is fraud.

This is only partly true, right up to the point marked in bold. This is where you took a wrong turn.

The mistake you make is a common error, one that is so pervasive that it requires constant correction.

It's based on the false assumption that any man, including a King, always says and does as God would have him do.
If you examine the Old Testament history of the ancient Israelites, you will see that there was a time in which the people demanded a King to rule them despite warnings and the best advice of their prophets against it.

God consented however to allow them to have a King. From that point on, one errant King after another led Israel down the road to enslavement. There were some decent Kings interspersed among the bad ones who did a reasonably good job of leading the people in a direction which pleased God. But all in all, having a King turned out to be not such a good idea after all.

It was not God's will that they should have a King in the first place, but he consented to their desire. He preferred that they didn't have a King for whatever reason. But had they chosen to not have a King and follow the advice of the sages, do you think that meant that God's intention was to exclude Him as well?
Of course not!

There are many people who do things in the name of God or Jesus Christ which are not in accordance with God's will. The evil deeds that men do should not be attributed to God if God has warned against them. The only way a person can blame God or Christ for the acts of men is to suppose that God forces them to do them. This implies that a man can have no will of his own and is thus incapable of making a decision and acting upon it. You don't believe that do you?

If I was to blame YOU for something that I did, or if someone else was to blame YOU for something that I did, would you not consider it unreasonable of them?

Nevertheless, men often blame God for all the evil in the world.

Men, being fallible as they are, can not be trusted entirely to always say and do as they ought. THIS is why the Founding Fathers did not want the entire rule of law and all power resting in the hands of a single individual.
Such a man might wake up on the wrong side of the bed one morning and decide that so and so should have his head chopped off for little or no reason. If he did, what kind of fool would it take to believe that such a wicked deed could be the result of an oracle of God?

The purpose of trying to create a government with a system of "checks and balances" was intended to avoid situations like that from arising by not allowing all power to rest in the hands of so few that a conspiracy among them could result in the perversion of the law.

In case you haven't noticed, King Obama has acquired a habit of invoking the Presidential Powers Act in order to circumvent the need for Congressional approval.
The suspension of many aspects of the Bill of Rights and the liberty which this and the previous Bush administrations have granted themselves to decide which laws they should enforce and which they can ignore has grown dangerously like that of a KINGSHIP.

No person who lacks the faith that Yomamma has been granted divine wisdom and authority would agree that this is a good thing. Nevertheless the Zionist Supremacists and the Marxist black, Mexican, and dope head suckers seem to think so. One can only suppose that they seek a government redistribution of wealth more than a lasting freedom. The only way they could reasonably embrace such a notion is if they were fools enough to believe that a country can prosper under those conditions.

All that put aside, the lack of faith of the Founders in the unwavering integrity of a man, even one calling himself a King, and their desire to have some say in decisions made by the government which would affect their personal lives, should not be taken as an indication that they were Godless , that they objected to Christian principles, or that they believed that religious convictions have no role in the government.

The majority of them would probably have been aghast at the idea of a government or a society comprised of people who were either atheistic or were only willing to abide by those principles which they invented for themselves.

A society of Secular Humanists would be such a society since they recognize no greater authority than man himself. Another way of putting this is to say that they place themselves in the position of God as being the sole arbiter of moral principles. There is a push in our country at this time for just that!
The arguments they use to promote their ideology are remarkably similar to the one you have made which essentially holds that there is no such thing as a religious conviction or belief in God which can result in anything BUT evil.
However it is NOT true that just because some men may use the facade of organized religion or cloak themselves as ministers of God in order to do evil, that it follows that all religious principles are invalid and that it is impossible for men to approximate them in the practical application to their lives.

The desire of the Founders was not that their leaders become irreligious or that they should have no faith in God or conviction that all moral laws are the result of a divine being greater than man. Rather it was to prevent that some men, presenting themselves falsely as representatives of God should come in among the flock so to speak as "wolves in sheep's clothing". Men still can make a pretense of religious conviction in order to deceive the naive and gullible.

Do you see the difference? The founders intention was not to bar the divine presence or wisdom of God from the government, but to prevent the government from interfering with the religious beliefs of it's citizens.


Also, it should be remembered that the cause of the American Revolution, according to Ben Franklin, was chiefly due to the Crowns interference with the financial system within the colonies. Not only were the colonists suffering from "taxation without representation" , they were not allowed to control the economy of the colonies to serve the best interests of the colonists. They were being unfairly taken advantage of. The majority of them probably had no particular objections to the Crown per say. And had the dispute over who should control the money supply of the colonies and how much they should be taxed it is doubtful that a rebellion would have occurred at all!

A similar complaint was made by many Southerners against the North prior to the War between the States. It seemed that the North did not want to play fair when it came to tariffs and other money matters.

Isn't it often the case that so many troubles can be traced back to squabbles over money?
Is it any wonder why a verse in the Bible says something like "Money is the root of all evil." Other people say it says "Money is the root of all sorts of evil."
I don't think we have to quibble over the difference to recognize that money is indeed the source of a great many woes.

A lot of people have trouble reconciling the necessary evils of this world like "love and money", or more appropriately "sex and money", with the Christian call to "take up one's cross daily." Some people find it difficult or impossible to believe that such a thing as absolute "good" can exist in a world that centers around either one of them.

A Christian has to believe that it IS possible to make righteous decisions in the face of so many reasons that cause one to become cynical. That isn't saying that it is easy, only that it is possible. They also believe that it is reasonable of God to expect a man to strive towards those goals despite his occasional blunders.


The Founders believed that the "Divine right" originated with God, NOT man. They spell that out clearly in the opening to the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;

Notice that they say that certain truths are "self evident" and that they are "endowed by their Creator".

That's hardly a declaration of secularism.

"Secularism" to them would probably mean something more like, "Let the government know it's rightful boundaries and refrain from making declarations of a religious nature that should be imposed upon men against their wishes."
In other words, government business ends where a mans private religious convictions begin. It's only when a person breaks the law or infringes upon the rights of others that the government has a right to intervene. Even then it can do so only so far as the law prescribes. And the laws are written so as to protect the God given inalienable rights of one man against the trespasses of another man.

The kind of governmental violation which I believe you are referring to which is often referred to as "separation of church and state" has already been committed by Papa Bush.

viz.

Guillotine Death by Noahide Laws PASSED BY CONGRESS-1991? | Home of the r??O?ution !

“Resolved by the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That March 26, 1991, the start of the ninetieth year of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of the worldwide Lubavitch movement, is designated as ‘EDUCATION DAY U.S.A.’ The President is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the people of the United States to observe such day with appropriate ceremonies and activities.”

“Because the NOAHIDE LAWS forbid the free exercise of religion (especially Christianity) in America, and respect on religion over another (JUDAISM over all other religions) they clearly violate the First Amendment Establishment Clause.

THEREFORE, as long as the US CONSTITUION remains in force, they CANNOT ACTIVATE THE NOAHIDE LAWS AND ENFORCE THEM IN AMERICA AT THIS TIME!

However, WHEN the CONSTITUTION IS ABOLISHED through the declaration of NATIONAL EMERGENCY, MARTIAL LAW, THEN you will see the NOAHIDE LAWS activated and the enforcers (which are the military, foreign and domestic) and their guillotines brought out in full force.

It's astonishing that so few people are aware that Bush Senior signed this House Resolution so long ago at the behest of Chabad Lubavitch, one of the most militant Jewish organizations there is.
But it's not surprising that they are unaware since the media is controlled by Jews.

Indeed, Jewish political, social, and religious organizations have been the most vocal about and active in promoting the concept of "separation of church and state".

Since none of the Jewish community has objected to the insertion of proclamations such as the Noahide Resolution, one can only surmise that it by "separation of church and state" that the "church" they are objecting to is the Christian one.

None of them have ever protested against the "separation of synagogue and state".

For those who are not familiar with the Noahide laws, it is noteworthy that the first one of them is a Jewish prohibition against "idolatry" whose definition includes the worship of any "man" as God. This would include the person Jesus Christ whom Jews consider merely a man. And that's putting it nicely.

The Noahide penalty for idolatry calls for death by guillotine. They describe this method as being the most humane among the options which are prescribed.

So are you like so many others who remain bewildered by the objections so many people have against the establishment of a "New World Order". Papa Bush used the term himself. He's the same one who signed off on the Noahide Laws in behalf of Chabad Lubavitch.

You can do simple arithmetic can't you?


There is no law against being an atheist or a Secular Humanist or even a Jew.
There are only laws which have been written according to certain principles of fairness that are designed to prevent one man from abusing another.

THOSE laws EVERYONE is bound to follow. That would include Jews as well as atheists or Satanists or any other kind of 'ist.

The principles upon which those laws are based can be gleaned from New Testament Christianity.
The law of "Divine Right" you referred to is probably something attributable to Catholicism.

Protestant Christians do not recognize the Pope as being representative of divine authority any more than they do King Yomamma.

No where in Christian theology will you find an edict demanding that non-Christians should be beheaded.

In Judaism as well as Islam you CAN!

 

[BreezeWood]

Of course, this is quite different than the Spiritual Force humans have connected with since we became civilized creatures. That force has been the catalyst and inspiration for all of human advancement and humanities and our ability to connect with it, remains our most defining attribute as a species.

Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right 1844

In Marx's view, the poor and oppressed were the original creators of religion, and they used it as a way to reassure themselves that they would have a better life in the future, after death. Thus, it served as a kind of "opium," or a way to escape the harsh realities of the world.

just a contrast between two views of the same subject, I agree with both and do not believe one is exclusive of the other but that certain factions of each are instrumental through deliberation to make a separation between spiritual and practical needs for alterior motivations ... in many cases deliberate suppression from advancements for shortsighted and dubious gains.

.

 

[koshergrl]

Numbers in the US are declining, as our schools and media work harder and harder to portray those of faith as stupid or extremist...

But Christianity world wide is increasing.

The question has NEVER been if Christianity is bad or not.
That is the myth you have been conned into believing as the naive and gullible sheeple are easily manipulated.
The question is if this country was founded on one religion or not.
And the overwhelming undisputed evidence is the Founders WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to keep ALL religions out of government.
Because this nation was founded as a secular government.

no, that isn't the question. Maybe it's the question in some other thread. Feel free to go there.

 

[Boss]

Numbers in the US are declining, as our schools and media work harder and harder to portray those of faith as stupid or extremist...

But Christianity world wide is increasing.

The question has NEVER been if Christianity is bad or not.
That is the myth you have been conned into believing as the naive and gullible sheeple are easily manipulated.
The question is if this country was founded on one religion or not.
And the overwhelming undisputed evidence is the Founders WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to keep ALL religions out of government.
Because this nation was founded as a secular government.

Wow... Could've sworn the question was "Why do the God-haters persist?"

Our nation was NOT founded as a "secular nation" or this would have been clearly indicated in our founding documents. This nation was converted to a secular nation in 1947 when Hugo Black misinterpreted the establishment clause. Before then, it was clearly a Judeo-Christian nation founded on the principle of religious freedom.

The founders all went out of their way to ensure religious freedom would be protected and that government would not interfere with religious beliefs. Jefferson even articulated the reassurance to Danbury Baptists as a "wall of separation" to protect religion from governmental influence or interference, as was the case in England. To completely destroy your "secular nation" argument, Jefferson ended his letter to Danbury Baptists with a completely 'non-secular' prayer, in his official capacity as President of the United States.

Here's what our premier Founding Father, George Washington, had to say in his Farewell Address:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Many other Founding Father quotes reflect the same sentiment for God in government:

"The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity." - John Adams

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.” - James Madison

“Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government” - James Madison

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - John Jay

“Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” - Benjamin Franklin

...and a few others...

“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” - Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story

“[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.” - Andrew Jackson

"This nation under God.." - Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address and inscribed on Lincoln Memorial

"And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God … and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord." - Abraham Lincoln

“This is a Christian nation” - United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

USA Constitution – First Amendment
“Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…”

.............Now, forgive me, but these quotes and proclamations seem rather unusual and odd for people who thought we were a "secular nation" in any context of the word.

 

[BreezeWood]

No person who lacks the faith that Yomamma has been granted divine wisdom and authority would agree that this is a good thing. Nevertheless the Zionist Supremacists and the Marxist black, Mexican, and dope head suckers seem to think so. One can only suppose that they seek a government redistribution of wealth more than a lasting freedom. The only way they could reasonably embrace such a notion is if they were fools enough to believe that a country can prosper under those conditions.

I gotta hand that one to you holston, a work of Art.

The Founders believed that the "Divine right" originated with God, NOT man. They spell that out clearly in the opening to the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed;

Notice that they say that certain truths are "self evident" and that they are "endowed by their Creator".

That's hardly a declaration of secularism.

... by their Creator

that most certainly is secular and does not ascribe any particular religion.


* was that a post or a pre-write for Sundays sermon ???

.

 

[orogenicman]

Numbers in the US are declining, as our schools and media work harder and harder to portray those of faith as stupid or extremist...

But Christianity world wide is increasing.

The question has NEVER been if Christianity is bad or not.
That is the myth you have been conned into believing as the naive and gullible sheeple are easily manipulated.
The question is if this country was founded on one religion or not.
And the overwhelming undisputed evidence is the Founders WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to keep ALL religions out of government.
Because this nation was founded as a secular government.

Wow... Could've sworn the question was "Why do the God-haters persist?"

Our nation was NOT founded as a "secular nation" or this would have been clearly indicated in our founding documents. This nation was converted to a secular nation in 1947 when Hugo Black misinterpreted the establishment clause. Before then, it was clearly a Judeo-Christian nation founded on the principle of religious freedom.

The founders all went out of their way to ensure religious freedom would be protected and that government would not interfere with religious beliefs. Jefferson even articulated the reassurance to Danbury Baptists as a "wall of separation" to protect religion from governmental influence or interference, as was the case in England. To completely destroy your "secular nation" argument, Jefferson ended his letter to Danbury Baptists with a completely 'non-secular' prayer, in his official capacity as President of the United States.

Here's what our premier Founding Father, George Washington, had to say in his Farewell Address:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Many other Founding Father quotes reflect the same sentiment for God in government:

"The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity." - John Adams

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.” - James Madison

“Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government” - James Madison

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - John Jay

“Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” - Benjamin Franklin

...and a few others...

“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” - Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story

“[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.” - Andrew Jackson

"This nation under God.." - Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address and inscribed on Lincoln Memorial

"And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God … and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord." - Abraham Lincoln

“This is a Christian nation” - United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

USA Constitution – First Amendment
“Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…”

.............Now, forgive me, but these quotes and proclamations seem rather unusual and odd for people who thought we were a "secular nation" in any context of the word.

Clearly the majority of the nation's people are Christian, and live by Christian traditions and standards, such as they are. But to suggest that our government is anything other than a secular one is to attempt to revise history. The United States is not a theocracy no matter how badly you may want it to be. The United States government is a republic, and that is just about as secular as it gets. If you are looking for a theocracy, may I suggest you move to the Vatican or else Iran may take you in.

 

[koshergrl]

The whole premise of equality is a Christian one, and the founding fathers were eloquent about that in many writings.

Nonetheless, gadawg is just drunk again, and doesn't know what the hell is going on. That was certainly not the topic of this thread.

 

[holston]

No person who lacks the faith that Yomamma has been granted divine wisdom and authority would agree that this is a good thing. Nevertheless the Zionist Supremacists and the Marxist black, Mexican, and dope head suckers seem to think so. One can only suppose that they seek a government redistribution of wealth more than a lasting freedom. The only way they could reasonably embrace such a notion is if they were fools enough to believe that a country can prosper under those conditions.

I gotta hand that one to you holston, a work of Art.





... by their Creator

that most certainly is secular and does not ascribe any particular religion.


* was that a post or a pre-write for Sundays sermon ???

.

Why thank you very much.

I suppose one could take "Creator" to mean many things, Odin, Zeus, Isis, Dr Frankenstein, Aliens from another Galaxy, Carl Sagan, The Almighty Primordial Amoeba, A space rock, The Great Pumpkin.....take your pick".
If nothing in this little list appeals to you, just make something up. All you have to do is wish upon a star and there you have it.

But I seriously doubt if the Founders were referring to the likes of any of them when they made the statements quoted by da Boss manes.


If my reply sounded like a sermon to you, we'll just have to chalk that up to your interpretation of it. Look very carefully and you'll see that it was mostly a reply to Gawdogdiggity dawg.


Did you overlook the part towards the end about the Noahide Laws and Chabbad Lubavitches House Resolution?

What SECULAR religion would you ascribe THAT to?

 

[Boss]

Clearly the majority of the nation's people are Christian, and live by Christian traditions and standards, such as they are. But to suggest that our government is anything other than a secular one is to attempt to revise history. The United States is not a theocracy no matter how badly you may want it to be. The United States government is a republic, and that is just about as secular as it gets. If you are looking for a theocracy, may I suggest you move to the Vatican or else Iran may take you in.

History was revised in 1947 by Justice Hugo Black. The foundation of our great nation was established on a completely religious principle that all men are created equal and endowed rights by a Creator. (Note the capitalization, Breeze.) To suggest this implies "secular" in any way, is just plain dishonest.

The United States is NOT a theocracy, I never claimed it was. In fact, the United States can never BE a theocracy as long as we have a First Amendment, it is expressly forbidden.

 

[MaryL]

My priest, years ago practically apologized for all the Catholic church's weakness...Then, he died from Cirrhosis of the liver. Too much sacramental wine. We all have a weakness or other. The lesson I learned.

 

[holston]

Clearly the majority of the nation's people are Christian, and live by Christian traditions and standards, such as they are. But to suggest that our government is anything other than a secular one is to attempt to revise history. The United States is not a theocracy no matter how badly you may want it to be. The United States government is a republic, and that is just about as secular as it gets. If you are looking for a theocracy, may I suggest you move to the Vatican or else Iran may take you in.

So we "clearly" have a majority of the nation claiming to be Christians having those standards and traditions you say?

I could argue with you whether the majority of them are in any more than name only, but that's another problem.

Still it seems odd that a bunch of people who by your own admission would profess to some sort of Christian affiliation would be any more averse to having a nation based on those principles than the Jews would want one based on the enforced assumption of Jewish Supremacy.

That would be like saying that although Muslims have been ordered by Muhammed to decapitate all infidels resisting conversion or submission to slavery would have no interest in declaring Sharia Law to be the law of the land.

Are Jews less dedicated to their own ethnic and religious heritage than people of other persuasions?

Or are there so many atheists and Secular Humanists among them that they have lost interest in everything about Judaism except for their mutually shared desire to achieve dominion over everyone else?

It's funny that you should suggest a revision of history given the Jewish penchant for doing the same.


Indeed the Founders did NOT intend to establish a Theocracy. This can easily be surmised from the fact that there are so many different denominations of "Christianity" which have sprung up since then.
Being Protestants it's certain that they did not wish for a repeat of Bloody Mary or King Henry. I would agree with Gawdog that they surely did not desire any more of THAT "sh!t".

AND they probably had the foresight to anticipate a time in the future in which some OTHER religious order that laid no claim to Christianity might usurp all power of government for themselves and then attempt to establish a Theocracy of their own in place of the Constitution.

Although the Muslims certainly wish they could, it is the Jews who have positioned themselves to have a chance of actually being able to do so.

Before this could be accomplished they would first have to remove all traces of Christian iconography which might serve as a reminder to those who have abandoned the faith, prohibit by law any mention of it in the public sphere, remove the teaching of it from as many venues as possible, starting with public schools, and make the preaching of any doctrine of Christ which is contrary to bastions of political correctness such as the homosexual lobby punishable by law.

In Communist China and the former Soviet Union all expression of the Christian faith have been severely frowned upon as you are probably aware. A condition which the U.S. grows nearer to as the days pass.

Do you suppose that bloody history could be revised as well given a completely State owned Communist or Secular Humanist press?


It appears that those who wish to eradicate Christianity in any form, heretical or otherwise, would probably approach the problem by way of all the operations listed above.

Perhaps the easiest and most effective means of "Blotting out his name" would be to encourage the people to do so themselves. Movies, books, TV, radio, magazines, "scholarly" journals, public education could all become vehicles to accomplish this objective in the hands of people who were organized, racially, ethically and religiously motivated by a commonly shared "faith" and who are skilled in Public Relations and advertising campaigns.

Can you think of any particular religious/racial/ethnic group that would fit that description having the means, the motive and the capital to finance it?


I concur with Washington et al on the desirable traits of a nations leaders and people.

I would also agree that the best way to ensure that no Supremacist or head chopping Theocracies be afforded the opportunity to arise to such power without the express consent of the people themselves would be to construct a Constitutional system which distributed power to elected representatives of the people, and not place it all in the hands of those who would dismantle or subvert it altogether. In short, I would wish to give the people the opportunity to choose their own poison, and not force it down their throats as some would be dictators would like to.

It isn't I who want a Theocracy. YOU are gravely mistaken on that point and have done me an injustice by implying that I did.

But if YOU are determined that your desire for a society whose majority abhor religious constraint, moral admonishments, and whose God's are their stomachs then I would congratulate your fellows on a job well done. You appear to be well on your way to seeing your dreams realized. Only I don't believe for a minute that it will be anything like the utopia you envision.

 

[orogenicman]

Still it seems odd that a bunch of people who by your own admission would profess to some sort of Christian affiliation would be any more averse to having a nation based on those principles than the Jews would want one based on the enforced assumption of Jewish Supremacy.

Why? Because the colonies saw religious strife throughout it's history prior to the 13 colonies becoming a nation. The founding fathers wanted to mitigate such religious strife and said so on many occasions. That is the reason they included freedom of religion as the FIRST amendment. And you cannot have freedom of religion when one religion is ruling over another.

But if YOU are determined that your desire for a society whose majority abhor religious constraint, moral admonishments, and whose God's are their stomachs then I would congratulate your fellows on a job well done. You appear to be well on your way to seeing your dreams realized. Only I don't believe for a minute that it will be anything like the utopia you envision.

If you believe that the religiously devout are the only ones who understand and practice morality, then you don't know much about people outside of your own narrow world view. If you believe that religions have not been a party to barbarity and immoral behavior, then you don't know much about the history of religions.

 

[orogenicman]

Clearly the majority of the nation's people are Christian, and live by Christian traditions and standards, such as they are. But to suggest that our government is anything other than a secular one is to attempt to revise history. The United States is not a theocracy no matter how badly you may want it to be. The United States government is a republic, and that is just about as secular as it gets. If you are looking for a theocracy, may I suggest you move to the Vatican or else Iran may take you in.

History was revised in 1947 by Justice Hugo Black. The foundation of our great nation was established on a completely religious principle that all men are created equal and endowed rights by a Creator. (Note the capitalization, Breeze.) To suggest this implies "secular" in any way, is just plain dishonest.

The United States is NOT a theocracy, I never claimed it was. In fact, the United States can never BE a theocracy as long as we have a First Amendment, it is expressly forbidden.

Erm, the declaration of independence is not the law of the law. It was a letter to Mad King George declaring our independence from his tyranny. Next. And the establishment of a religious nation (particularly one based on Christianity) was never stated in the declaration as a goal, nor was it ever expressed as a goal in any other founding document. You really should read it before you make such silly claims.

 

[koshergrl]

Morality does always originate with religion.

I don't understand the pretense that there are non-religious, yet insanely moral, societies out there doing fabulously. It's a pipe dream.