Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[Cardinal Carminative]

Not surprising.

Perhaps you could cite some passages from the Bible in support of your points?

 

[Meriweather]

Because your response didn't address my question or rather the underlying concept of what Marcionism is primarily known for.

Shrug. I figured you knew all of that. I don't see it as all that important.

 

[Meriweather]

Perhaps you could cite some passages from the Bible in support of your points?

Why? My studies are not limited to the Bible.

 

[ding]

everyone else knows the metaphysical forces are entirely "made" of matter and energy ...

Not possible. Not how we know it.

 

[ding]

LOL.

I'm glad that's settled.

 

[ding]

And do you recall from 1 Samuel what God did to Saul AFTER he refused to "genocide" the Amalekites? Yeah, God kindled his anger toward Saul for disobedience.



Yes, among many other things, he passed along God's wish for genocide and murder.



By murdering everyone else?



So they needed a genocide to maintain their purity? Got it.



Even the old women and infants? Because they were on the list as well.






Saul was replaced by God because Saul refused to murder every living thing of Amalek.

Remember that.

But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,

It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

Is your point that God is a meanie? What's your point?

 

[ding]

Which parts of the Bible do you get to ignore?



Did you not read the quote I provided: those were the words of GOD.

This part was the key:

"Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,"


So which of God's words do YOU normally ignore?



yes, it seems to be a full-throated support for genocide and murder.




"And it shall be, when ye have taken the city, that ye shall set the city on fire: according to the commandment of the LORD shall ye do. See, I have commanded you."

"And stay ye not, but pursue after your enemies, and smite the hindmost of them; suffer them not to enter into their cities: for the LORD your God hath delivered them into your hand."

"This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee."



But he most certainly did so throughout the first part of the OT.

"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."



Fair enough. Samuel lied then? Samuel, a PROPHET OF GOD, lied about this?



I actually generally agree that this story is NOT related to any concept of a rational "God", but it stands that it is part of the Bible and if you wish to EXCISE that part you must then explain why you don't excise the NUMEROUS calls for genocide and death in Joshua or other books.

No, it feels like the God of the OT was a standard issue "olde time god of vengeance and fierce partisanship", just like every other made up god of the time. This God got to "evolve" into the God of Love we know today.

If someone came into a courtroom and claimed God told him to murder thousands of people, no one would accept it. But the Bible says it all the time in the early bits.

Are you, perchance, a Marcionite?



So their infants had to be murdered? Got it.



Were the infants of the Amalekites doing that too?



God can only be expected to let his Chosen People suffer for so long before a good cleansing GENOCIDE and buckets of blood cleanse the world of those whom God wishes dead.






Sorry, but genocide is seldom a good answer.



You mean "LYING". He must have been lying on behalf of God. If God didn't want the genocide HE later punished Saul for, then Samuel was lying.

Say it for what it is.



So genocide is the answer? I don't agree with that.



I don't respect genocide. No matter WHO does it.



My favorite parts of the David story are when he's on the run moving from town to town and even visiting some towns that didn't exist at the time but rather existed in later eras. Almost as if someone just made big parts up.



I generally agree: If we strip the Bible of any "supernatural" stuff we are left with a nice clear human story written by humans full of every human foible and every "sin" elevated as a virtue at some point.

The Bible is the work of humans. 100%. Which is why it has both GOOD and BAD. It has our horrific flaws and our better nature in its pages. But that's because we humans wrote the thing. Every jot and tittle.

I see your problem now. You don't know how to read the bible. These will help.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Shrug. I figured you knew all of that. I don't see it as all that important.

Except it was important. You had raised a point to which that was a response.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Why? My studies are not limited to the Bible.

Damp kindling here. Either expand on your point or just leave it alone. Frankly I don't care enough about you or your "studies" to play "pull the teeth" and figure out how deeply your studies go.

Sorry.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Is your point that God is a meanie? What's your point?

What kind of theological conception of God do you have such that commanding genocide is "ok" in your view?

(You might want to now revisit Euthyphro before you answer...)

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I see your problem now. You don't know how to read the bible. These will help.

I love how you guys cannot imagine that someone could differ from YOUR particular sect's views so you assume they are unable to "read the bible".

Thank God there's YouTube! Selah!

 

[BreezeWood]

I'm agnostic. I have no belief system. Stalin murdered 60 to million. Mao up to 100 million. Pol Pot killed 25% of the population of his country.

It's called history.

You should read some.

Socialism, YOUR GOD, has murdered more people in 100 years, than all of the people killed by ALL religions in 2,000 years.

both stalin and mao fought civil wars the prevailing religions were in league with the oppressors as they have been throughout their "histories" ...

- as stated no's are relative when terrorism is employed the gov't / religion alliances new to well their tactics need not the physical numbers to succeed in controlling the daily lives of their constituents.

again you fail to provide links to your numbers - 60 million russians perished fighting the christian nazi germany.

 

[BothWings]

We do our best work when we have faith in something. It's not so much about what we have faith in, as our Karma will simply put us in our place eventually regardless of what we believe. But having faith DOES provide an almost magical boost to human accomplishment. It doesn't matter what religion, unless it's a childish one that puts human hedonism first. It's simply about recognizing oneself as a microcosm instead of as the center of the universe.

It takes a long time for humans to understand this, as they tend to believe it is their choice and adherence to a specific church that opens this door. It's not. It's simply the state of having faith and believing in something higher. Anyone who has faith in something higher is empowered. Most of all it depends on it remaining nameless. Because as we name our gods we create gods in our own image.Which is blasphemous.

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Why do people have a need to believe in gods?

So they don't have to worship the environment/trees, rocks, dirt, you know, nature.

 

[BreezeWood]

who's we - because everyone else knows the metaphysical forces are entirely "made" of matter and energy ...

Not possible. Not how we know it.

if you are speaking for the desert, everything is possible - just make it up and therefore what is said is true.

at any rate, physiology is a metaphysical substance that dissolves into the atmosphere when its spiritual content is removed - that much is known.

 

[Meriweather]

Either expand

Do you think everyone has always read the Bible in English through the perspective of modern Western culture? Are you one who also was given the impression that each one of those English words should be taken literally? Is that how you came to hold a view of God as a genocidal maniac?

My experience of God was one of a Being who is love and goodness. Therefore, I was perplexed about why the writers of the Old Testament presented Him so harshly. Was I wrong about God or were they wrong about God? So I began research and years of study on the languages, cultures, histories, and people of the time. Hebrew does not translate well into English. Ancient Biblical perspectives were not the same as modern Western perspectives. I had to learn to think in an entirely different way because Hebrew is an entirely different way of speaking and thinking.

Bottom Line: In Hebrew, God comes across as good, loving, and just. In Hebrew culture it would not occur to anyone to think anything less of God. However, God and His ways are so far above the ways of humans, the literary technique of personification helped people understand God by using human emotions and actions.

I understand why the Jewish community has little interest in working with us. Even when they can get someone to understand the translation problem, it is nearly impossible to teach another culture how to think differently. I have an itty-bitty grasp of it. Only enough for someone whose first language is Hebrew to recognize I at least understand it is a different way of thinking--but not enough of a grasp to actually think that way myself--at least not with any consistency for any length of time.

You are content with the idea of God as maniac and that a literal English, modern Western perspective accurately captures God's true nature. I have no interest in disabusing you of that notion. My only purpose is to perhaps give you a glimpse into why so many do not see God (or the Bible) as you do.

 

[Meriweather]

I love how you guys cannot imagine that someone could differ from YOUR particular sect's views so you assume they are unable to "read the bible".

Rabbis (dating back centuries) advise, "Scripture is to be studied, not read."

I have no doubt you have read the Bible. Studying takes an entirely different tact.

 

[BreezeWood]

Rabbis (dating back centuries) advise, "Scripture is to be studied, not read."

I have no doubt you have read the Bible. Studying takes an entirely different tact.

to study what - claims to be from the heavens without merit is in itself reason to look elsewhere. when their last book disappears so will their religion.

not so what is spoken and passed down through the centuries, the golden rule, religion of antiquity simple truths not 10000 pg documents is what truly is their religion whether studied or not.

 

[TheParser]

Why do people have a need to believe in gods?

Because life is so horrible and because human beings are so vicious.

 

[westwall]

both stalin and mao fought civil wars the prevailing religions were in league with the oppressors as they have been throughout their "histories" ...

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- as stated no's are relative when terrorism is employed the gov't / religion alliances new to well their tactics need not the physical numbers to succeed in controlling the daily lives of their constituents.

again you fail to provide links to your numbers - 60 million russians perished fighting the christian nazi germany.

No, 26 million or so died fighting the Germans. Mainly because Stalin didn't care about his people.

The links are easy. Read a book.