Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[Blues Man]

I need God because I would be lost without Him.

Lost in what sense?

 

[Blues Man]

Because life is so horrible and because human beings are so vicious.

Life is only horrible if you decide to see it as horrible. Is it perhaps you desire a life that is unrealistic?

There are vicious humans but not all humans are vicious.

 

[Blues Man]

So they don't have to worship the environment/trees, rocks, dirt, you know, nature.

Why do people have to worship anything?

 

[Blues Man]

We do our best work when we have faith in something. It's not so much about what we have faith in, as our Karma will simply put us in our place eventually regardless of what we believe. But having faith DOES provide an almost magical boost to human accomplishment. It doesn't matter what religion, unless it's a childish one that puts human hedonism first. It's simply about recognizing oneself as a microcosm instead of as the center of the universe.

It takes a long time for humans to understand this, as they tend to believe it is their choice and adherence to a specific church that opens this door. It's not. It's simply the state of having faith and believing in something higher. Anyone who has faith in something higher is empowered. Most of all it depends on it remaining nameless. Because as we name our gods we create gods in our own image.Which is blasphemous.

Interesting take.

Though I don't really believe in Karma as some type of intelligent force that punishes people for bad acts.

 

[ding]

What kind of theological conception of God do you have such that commanding genocide is "ok" in your view?

(You might want to now revisit Euthyphro before you answer...)

So it is true... you don't believe God exists because you believe God is a meanie.

You are reading the Bible wrong.

 

[ding]

I love how you guys cannot imagine that someone could differ from YOUR particular sect's views so you assume they are unable to "read the bible".

Thank God there's YouTube! Selah!

You should watch both videos.

 

[ding]

if you are speaking for the desert, everything is possible - just make it up and therefore what is said is true.

at any rate, physiology is a metaphysical substance that dissolves into the atmosphere when its spiritual content is removed - that much is known.

Just telling you what the science says. The presence of matter and energy creates its own space time.

 

[BothWings]

Interesting take.

Though I don't really believe in Karma as some type of intelligent force that punishes people for bad acts.

I don't believe Karma itself is intelligent or cognizant either. It just IS. We are attached to the universe by it. It can stretch. It can be tied in knots. You can play jump rope with it. You can even hang yourself with it. Your choice! :+) But the things you do to it effect that connection you have to the universe.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Do you think everyone has always read the Bible in English through the perspective of modern Western culture?

That's the thing. We aren't just talking about some random book. We are talking about God's word to humanity.

Are you telling me that God demands people be experts on Hebrew and ancient civilizations to understand Him?

I hope you understand that makes for a rather narrow God.

Are you one who also was given the impression that each one of those English words should be taken literally?

NO! Not at all. I love the metaphor in the Bible. But ironically every time I, an atheist, read the Bible I'm told by people of faith that I'm doing it wrong.

Is that how you came to hold a view of God as a genocidal maniac?

The Israelites taking over Caanan was not a metaphor in the Bible. I know you would LIKE it if it were, but it isn't.

If the stories of God handing over people to the hands of the Israelites to be slaughtered is "metaphor" what is the meaning behind it? Because it shows a God who is so fiercely partisan that countless people are slaughtered in His name.

If the stories are just made up "political" things by humans doing human things...then why even believe God is present in the process?

Seems like you want it both ways. That the Bible be about a real God but written by people who continually put bad, non-God stuff in there about God.

My experience of God was one of a Being who is love and goodness.

I'm very glad for you.

Therefore, I was perplexed about why the writers of the Old Testament presented Him so harshly. Was I wrong about God or were they wrong about God? So I began research and years of study on the languages, cultures, histories, and people of the time. Hebrew does not translate well into English. Ancient Biblical perspectives were not the same as modern Western perspectives. I had to learn to think in an entirely different way because Hebrew is an entirely different way of speaking and thinking.

Are some genocides OK in this way of thinking?

Bottom Line: In Hebrew, God comes across as good, loving, and just.

Unless you are an Amalekite infant or old woman.

In Hebrew culture it would not occur to anyone to think anything less of God. However, God and His ways are so far above the ways of humans, the literary technique of personification helped people understand God by using human emotions and actions.

So God is a concept that often demands genocide?

I have an itty-bitty grasp of it. Only enough for someone whose first language is Hebrew to recognize I at least understand it is a different way of thinking--but not enough of a grasp to actually think that way myself--at least not with any consistency for any length of time.

Then explain 1 Sam 15:3 to me. Was it Samuel making stuff up and putting words in God's mouth? Was Samuel, a prophet of God, also a vicious liar and murderer?

You are content with the idea of God as maniac

No, the Bible is. I merely read the Bible.

and that a literal English, modern Western perspective accurately captures God's true nature.

I hope God allows non-Hebrew scholars into heaven.

I have no interest in disabusing you of that notion. My only purpose is to perhaps give you a glimpse into why so many do not see God (or the Bible) as you do.

But you act as if my reading of the Bible cannot POSSIBLY be rational. You think I'm just somehow in here cherry picking to make God look bad.

The Bible does that. And you explain it away with vague mentions of how it requires a knowledge of ancient Hebrew to understand.

Then explain the GENOCIDES TO ME. Are they real in the BIble? Or are they made up and written by people who wanted to put the blame on God?

 

[ding]

I don't believe Karma itself is intelligent or cognizant either. It just IS. We are attached to the universe by it. It can stretch. It can be tied in knots. You can play jump rope with it. You can even hang yourself with it. Your choice! :+) But the things you do to it effect that connection you have to the universe.

Do you believe Karma is logical?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

The presence of matter and energy creates its own space time.

Could you show me the science where matter and energy CREATE spacetime? Thanks.

 

[Blues Man]

I don't believe Karma itself is intelligent or cognizant either. It just IS. We are attached to the universe by it. It can stretch. It can be tied in knots. You can play jump rope with it. You can even hang yourself with it. Your choice! :+) But the things you do to it effect that connection you have to the universe.

I just don't think these forces or whatever you want to call them exist outside our own perceptions.

Certainly may truly terrible people never pay for their own bad acts.
Many truly good people never see any rewards.

IMO the idea of Karma is very close to the idea of divine retribution.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Rabbis (dating back centuries) advise, "Scripture is to be studied, not read."

That sounds like a fun wordgame without real content. Should I read what the words say or just make up what makes me feel good about what I'm reading?

I have no doubt you have read the Bible. Studying takes an entirely different tact.

I love how those who come to different conclusions from the Faithful are ipso facto "doing it wrong".

I've studied the Bible and religion quite a bit, my friend. The fact that I am an atheist now is the problem for you. Not that I read the Bible...but that I didn't arrive at the same feelings as you did. That's the threat.

 

[ding]

Could you show me the science where matter and energy CREATE spacetime? Thanks.

You mean the big bang wasn't enough evidence for you?

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[Meriweather]

That's the thing. We aren't just talking about some random book. We are talking about God's word to humanity.

Are you telling me that God demands people be experts on Hebrew and ancient civilizations to understand Him?

I hope you understand that makes for a rather narrow God.

You and I already agreed the Bible accounts were written by man. Some of us also believe God as the inspiration.

We need to understand that our own narrowness as human beings blocks our ability to fully use and comprehend a language we don't use on a daily basis.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You mean the big bang wasn't enough evidence for you?

I don't recall the BB theory stating that mass and energy created spacetime. Please show me where that is. Thanks.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You and I already agreed the Bible accounts were written by man. Some of us also believe God as the inspiration.

What about the genocide parts in the OT? Made up?

We need to understand that our own narrowness as human beings blocks our ability to fully use and comprehend a language we don't use on a daily basis.

God cannot be fully understood by humans, but the believers understand him sufficiently to know everything they need to know AND they also are blessed with knowledge that those who FAIL to arrive at the same conclusion are, ipso facto, doing everything wrong.

Selah!

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You should watch both videos.

Sorry, don't watch other people's videos. If you have a summary, provide it. If you don't care about the point, leave it. Whatever.

I have spent years reading theology and religion. I don't waste my time on "videos".

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

So it is true... you don't believe God exists because you believe God is a meanie.

Incorrect.

Let me explain it to you so you can stop bearing false witness.


I fail to see evidence of God's existence. Just fail to see it. NOW, the fact that God in the OT is a "meanie" is theologically interesting NOT because that is my primary "problem" with God...but rather because it reveals God to be nothing more than a HUMAN INVENTION.

Why?

Well, God starts off as a fierce partisan supporting a tiny, tiny tribe in the middle of nowhere. He hates exactly what they hate. He even supports them in the slaughter of innocents just to get the land of their parents! God, in the OT, is a theologically problematic concept. So it fascinates me.

But more fascinating still are the BELIEVERS like yourself who can find a way to JUSTIFY even genocide and murder! Not because you like genocide and murder, but because your God did at one time.

God evolved. Thank heavens. Now he's a God of love and peace and loves ALL People, not just a random tribe in the Levant. Now he loves ALL and He would NEVER command a genocide...NOW.

Which is why I asked the other poster if they were a Marcionite. They were the folks who wanted to separate the OT God from the NT God. To try to make a way to have a theologically sound "God" to worship without having to worship a god who demanded slaughter of innocents (murder) in His name.

You are reading the Bible wrong.

Unless you are God, that's a judgement, my friend. And your faith, firmly held and honestly practiced, looks down on that.

YOUR GOD TELLS YOU NOT TO DO THAT.

Is your god real? I dunno....I guess I'll have to see how much YOU believe in His word.

 

[Blues Man]

.

What about the genocide parts in the OT? Made up?



God cannot be fully understood by humans, but the believers understand him sufficiently to know everything they need to know AND they also are blessed with knowledge that those who FAIL to arrive at the same conclusion are, ipso facto, doing everything wrong.

Selah!

And not to mention all the people of other religions are wrong.

It amuses me that the people of the three major Abrahamic religions think they all worship the same god when it seems pretty obvious they don't.

After all if there is only one god then only one religion can be correct.