Why have people come to believe health care is a "right" when it actually isn't?

[RKMBrown]

It is providing a vital service to American citizens. Millions of Americans are finding themselves priced out of the healthcare market. Even those not at the poverty level

If millions can't afford insurance then why do you support the government forcing people to buy coverage they don't need?

How is making me pay for maternity care and birth control, drug counseling and a whole host of other services I don't need or want helping make insurance more affordable for me or anyone else for that matter ?

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

 

[RKMBrown]

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

What about women who choose not to have kids?

And where did I ever say people didn't need health care?

I asked a simple question. How does forcing people to buy coverage for things they don't need or want help them reduce the price of their insurance?

And btw health care and health insurance are 2 completely different things.

Yes, healthcare and health insurance are two different things.......but this country is to stupid to do anything about healthcare

^ Projection. Just because you are to stupid to do anything about health care does not mean the rest of us are like you.

 

[Wry Catcher]

We already had medicaid for the poor. This plan has nothing to do with supporting those unable to pay. It's redistributing money from wealthy taxpayers (>4x poverty) to less wealthy tax payers (between poverty and 4x poverty).

It is providing a vital service to American citizens. Millions of Americans are finding themselves priced out of the healthcare market. Even those not at the poverty level

Millions of Americans are finding out that Obama Care is doubling and in some cases tripling the cost of insurance. Next year when this hits the corporations tens of millions will get hit by it. The only people that are not being screwed over by Obama Care are the people Obama has cherry picked to exempt, those who will be getting the largest subsidies, and those with pre-existing. But even those people getting the subsidies are merely getting the price everyone else had to pay before OCare took effect.

"Millions of Americans are finding out that Obama Care is doubling and in some cases tripling the cost of insurance"

Prove your allegation is true.

And, BTW, provide additional evidence that what replaces a canceled policy had a value equal to or greater than the policy which MAY cost more. MAY because most times the policy which replaces it will have a government subsidy for those who qualify. For those who don't qualify they are either free loaders or fools (or both).

 

[Flopper]

Health care insurance started going downhill in this country during the Great Depression and World War II, despite the numerous technical advances that were made during that period.

Then-President FDR clamped huge restrictions onto many parts of the economy during the Depression (resulting in that depression stretching out further than any ever had in world history), and they became even worse during WWII. One of them was wage and price controls, which became onerous as many able-bodied men joined the armed services to fight in the war.

Attracting talented people to fulfill the jobs they left was tough enough with so many good men joining up, and the govt's wage controls made the situation worse when employers found they couldn't offer higher wages to get people to hire on. Whether this was justifiable, not to say effective, by the war emergency is debatable.

Employers screamed bloody murder as their businesses approached collapse due to unfilled jobs, and while government refused to lift its wage and price controls, they announced the employers could offer benefits in lieu of pay to attract workers. One benefit was a tax exemption for employer-provided health insurance.

This helped somewhat, but with an employer only able to offer a few insurance plans, it locked employees into fairly uncompetetive market unless he changed jobs. And FDR's relatively new policy of "tax withholding" was extended to the employee part of the payments for insurance, further insulating the employee fro the gut-check of having to write weekly or monthly checks to the insurance company.

Employers offered "Cadillac" plans in their efforts to attract workers, and the employees seldom saw the actual cost of those expensive plans, which often paid for routine medications and office visits formerly not covered by real insurance plans. That, plus the lack of competition most insurance companies found themselves facing, removed a lot of their impetus to pare costs. And employees became used to health care which "seemed free", and started thinking of it as something akin to a "right", since it (sort of) appeared to cost nothing.

When the war ended, government did NOT remove the tax exemption for employer-provided health insurance even though the circumstances that made it desirable were now gone. And so health insurance has existed in a strange nether world ever since for most people, with employees of a company locked into the few (or one) insurance plan offered by that company with little likelihood they will ever leave it. At the same time it appeared to cost little or nothing, with even routine services (far beyond the major-event coverage real insurance is for) included and seeming "complimentary".

Fast forward to the 21st century. Now we have self-serving politicians screaming from the rooftops that health care is somehow a "right", though it comes nowhere close to resembling a right to liberty, right to speech, right to self-defense etc. - all of which are based on the fundamental right to be left alone and to associate only voluntarily with others. And most people, used to generations of "free" health care that was caused by that very government long ago, are actually believing it, despite the clear unworkability of the idea, the unnecessary expense and clumsiness of one-size-fits-all (or even three-sizes-fit-all) policies administered from thousand of miles away in Washington.

The cockeyed notion that we somehow have a "right" to have a broken arm set or an infection cleaned and treated by others, came (as so many cockeyed ideas do) from government intrusion into private matters in the first place.

We should be thankful that the government didn't offer tax breaks for food purchased by one's employer. Or by now, the same deluded people would be screaming that they had a "right" to food (some actually believe this one too, after generations of food stamps). Ditto for rent, phone service, etc., all of which have been tainted at one time or another by government programs to make them nearly "free".

Weaning Americans off these destructive addictions to "free" necessities and "rights" that aren't rights and never were, will be painful, as breaking an addiction always is. But it is no less necessary, if we are to survive as sovereign citizens in a free society.

In the constitution there is no explicit right to privacy, right to a fair trial, right to a Jury of your peers, or the right to healthcare. When someone speaks of the right to healthcare or their right to travel, or have kids, they can't be referring to a right in the constitution because there is no such explicit right. Does that mean we no right to travel or have kids? Of course not. Those are rights because we accept them or the courts rule they are via interpret of the constitution. In 20 years or so, healthcare will certainly be accepted as a right even thou it's not in constitution.

 

[Flopper]

If millions can't afford insurance then why do you support the government forcing people to buy coverage they don't need?

How is making me pay for maternity care and birth control, drug counseling and a whole host of other services I don't need or want helping make insurance more affordable for me or anyone else for that matter ?

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Family plans particular group plans usually cover maternity but that's not the case with individual plans for singles.

Since men are just as responsible for pregnancy as women, they should pay for the coverage. When everyone pays for the coverage, it adds very little to the premium. If you exempt men from coverage, women that can't have children, or don't want to have children, the cost goes sky high. This is exactly what has happens today. Very few individual plans are available to single women that included maternity because of the high cost. In many parts of the country it's just not available. With the cost of prenatal care and child birth running an average $18,000, single pregnant low income women have few options except abortion or cutting medical costs which usually means eliminating prenatal care and maternity care. This has serious health and cost consequences.

 

[Meister]

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Family plans particular group plans usually cover maternity but that's not the case with individual plans for singles.

Since men are just as responsible for pregnancy as women, they should pay for the coverage. When everyone pays for the coverage, it adds very little to the premium. If you exempt men from coverage, women that can't have children, or don't want to have children, the cost goes sky high. This is exactly what has happens today. Very few individual plans are available to single women that included maternity because of the high cost. In many parts of the country it's just not available. With the cost of prenatal care and child birth running an average $18,000, single pregnant low income women have few options except abortion or cutting medical costs which usually means eliminating prenatal care and maternity care. This has serious health and cost consequences.

Perhaps, we should have everyone pay for flood insurance, even those who live on top of mountains.

 

[RKMBrown]

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Family plans particular group plans usually cover maternity but that's not the case with individual plans for singles.

Since men are just as responsible for pregnancy as women, they should pay for the coverage. When everyone pays for the coverage, it adds very little to the premium. If you exempt men from coverage, women that can't have children, or don't want to have children, the cost goes sky high. This is exactly what has happens today. Very few individual plans are available to single women that included maternity because of the high cost. In many parts of the country it's just not available. With the cost of prenatal care and child birth running an average $18,000, single pregnant low income women have few options except abortion or cutting medical costs which usually means eliminating prenatal care and maternity care. This has serious health and cost consequences.

A couple who are around 50y old who have no desire whatsoever to have more children, who PAID FOR MATERNITY when they used it 20years ago. Now have to PAY AGAIN FOR MATERNITY EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T WANT IT. Bend over and take it, cause that's the responsible thing to do. Further, I paid into insurance my whole life but barely used it. Irresponsible people did not. Instead they spent their insurance money on BMWs. Then they got cancer while not having any insurance. Now I get to pay for their mistake by paying much higher premiums so that they can get insured with pre-existing. Still further, existing Insurance plans that could be 6x in range between the highest and lowest premiums are now 3x, thus forcing healthy people to pay much more for unhealthy people. Even further, healthy people who desired high deductible, low premium plans with the intention of using their own HSA account to fund any issues, are now being forced into low deductible high premium plans.

Screwed, screwed, screwed, screwed, tied down, then screwed again.

Why don't we just pass our restaurant bill to the richest table in the room. What is the point of working in this country any more?

 

[rightwinger]

What about women who choose not to have kids?

And where did I ever say people didn't need health care?

I asked a simple question. How does forcing people to buy coverage for things they don't need or want help them reduce the price of their insurance?

And btw health care and health insurance are 2 completely different things.

Yes, healthcare and health insurance are two different things.......but this country is to stupid to do anything about healthcare

^ Projection. Just because you are to stupid to do anything about health care does not mean the rest of us are like you.

You cannot do anything to fix the healthcare system in this country

 

[RKMBrown]

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Family plans particular group plans usually cover maternity but that's not the case with individual plans for singles.

Since men are just as responsible for pregnancy as women, they should pay for the coverage. When everyone pays for the coverage, it adds very little to the premium. If you exempt men from coverage, women that can't have children, or don't want to have children, the cost goes sky high. This is exactly what has happens today. Very few individual plans are available to single women that included maternity because of the high cost. In many parts of the country it's just not available. With the cost of prenatal care and child birth running an average $18,000, single pregnant low income women have few options except abortion or cutting medical costs which usually means eliminating prenatal care and maternity care. This has serious health and cost consequences.

Perhaps, we should have everyone pay for flood insurance, even those who live on top of mountains.

You already are. Our federal tax dollars are being spent to "save" the day for nearly every weather event, whether or not that event is a frequent event or unusual, whether or not that event was even in the USA.

 

[rightwinger]

If millions can't afford insurance then why do you support the government forcing people to buy coverage they don't need?

How is making me pay for maternity care and birth control, drug counseling and a whole host of other services I don't need or want helping make insurance more affordable for me or anyone else for that matter ?

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Saying you do not want to pay for women's health is just saying you want women to pay more for healthcare than men. Women are stuck with the childbirth responsibilities in this world. Having men say......I can't get pregnant, let women pay for it is short sighted

 

[RKMBrown]

Yes, healthcare and health insurance are two different things.......but this country is to stupid to do anything about healthcare

^ Projection. Just because you are to stupid to do anything about health care does not mean the rest of us are like you.

You cannot do anything to fix the healthcare system in this country

Can't be done... lol Yeah how could we possibly fix the best health care system in the world.

 

[rightwinger]

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Family plans particular group plans usually cover maternity but that's not the case with individual plans for singles.

Since men are just as responsible for pregnancy as women, they should pay for the coverage. When everyone pays for the coverage, it adds very little to the premium. If you exempt men from coverage, women that can't have children, or don't want to have children, the cost goes sky high. This is exactly what has happens today. Very few individual plans are available to single women that included maternity because of the high cost. In many parts of the country it's just not available. With the cost of prenatal care and child birth running an average $18,000, single pregnant low income women have few options except abortion or cutting medical costs which usually means eliminating prenatal care and maternity care. This has serious health and cost consequences.

A couple who are around 50y old who have no desire whatsoever to have more children, who PAID FOR MATERNITY when they used it 20years ago. Now have to PAY AGAIN FOR MATERNITY EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T WANT IT. Bend over and take it, cause that's the responsible thing to do. Further, I paid into insurance my whole life but barely used it. Irresponsible people did not. Instead they spent their insurance money on BMWs. Then they got cancer while not having any insurance. Now I get to pay for their mistake by paying much higher premiums so that they can get insured with pre-existing. Still further, existing Insurance plans that could be 6x in range between the highest and lowest premiums are now 3x, thus forcing healthy people to pay much more for unhealthy people. Even further, healthy people who desired high deductible, low premium plans with the intention of using their own HSA account to fund any issues, are now being forced into low deductible high premium plans.

Screwed, screwed, screwed, screwed, tied down, then screwed again.

Why don't we just pass our restaurant bill to the richest table in the room. What is the point of working in this country any more?

Older people use ten times the medical services that young people do. It is the young who are paying for your services

 

[RKMBrown]

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Saying you do not want to pay for women's health is just saying you want women to pay more for healthcare than men. Women are stuck with the childbirth responsibilities in this world. Having men say......I can't get pregnant, let women pay for it is short sighted

Please explain why you want to force a woman that can't have children to pay for maternity care.

 

[RKMBrown]

Family plans particular group plans usually cover maternity but that's not the case with individual plans for singles.

Since men are just as responsible for pregnancy as women, they should pay for the coverage. When everyone pays for the coverage, it adds very little to the premium. If you exempt men from coverage, women that can't have children, or don't want to have children, the cost goes sky high. This is exactly what has happens today. Very few individual plans are available to single women that included maternity because of the high cost. In many parts of the country it's just not available. With the cost of prenatal care and child birth running an average $18,000, single pregnant low income women have few options except abortion or cutting medical costs which usually means eliminating prenatal care and maternity care. This has serious health and cost consequences.

A couple who are around 50y old who have no desire whatsoever to have more children, who PAID FOR MATERNITY when they used it 20years ago. Now have to PAY AGAIN FOR MATERNITY EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T WANT IT. Bend over and take it, cause that's the responsible thing to do. Further, I paid into insurance my whole life but barely used it. Irresponsible people did not. Instead they spent their insurance money on BMWs. Then they got cancer while not having any insurance. Now I get to pay for their mistake by paying much higher premiums so that they can get insured with pre-existing. Still further, existing Insurance plans that could be 6x in range between the highest and lowest premiums are now 3x, thus forcing healthy people to pay much more for unhealthy people. Even further, healthy people who desired high deductible, low premium plans with the intention of using their own HSA account to fund any issues, are now being forced into low deductible high premium plans.

Screwed, screwed, screwed, screwed, tied down, then screwed again.

Why don't we just pass our restaurant bill to the richest table in the room. What is the point of working in this country any more?

Older people use ten times the medical services that young people do. It is the young who are paying for your services

Older people and young drug addicts.

 

[Flopper]

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Family plans particular group plans usually cover maternity but that's not the case with individual plans for singles.

Since men are just as responsible for pregnancy as women, they should pay for the coverage. When everyone pays for the coverage, it adds very little to the premium. If you exempt men from coverage, women that can't have children, or don't want to have children, the cost goes sky high. This is exactly what has happens today. Very few individual plans are available to single women that included maternity because of the high cost. In many parts of the country it's just not available. With the cost of prenatal care and child birth running an average $18,000, single pregnant low income women have few options except abortion or cutting medical costs which usually means eliminating prenatal care and maternity care. This has serious health and cost consequences.

Perhaps, we should have everyone pay for flood insurance, even those who live on top of mountains.

There is always coverage in insurance that you don't need. The 20 something is covered for Alzheimer's yet no one get's the disease that's under forty. The blind are covered for vision problems. If your insurance only covered what was likely to happen to you, your premium would be higher. This is how insurance companies spread the cost of risk and reduce administrative costs.

 

[rightwinger]

When I had my kids my wife and I purchased maternity insurance. Don't know how it works in your circle of the woods but in mine, family bills are paid by the family, not mom alone. Heck my wife did not even work at the time. So saying women deserve to pay the same rates as men is just a really bad straw-man to defend Obama. What you are doing is moving one families expenses to another family and single people who have no desire to have babies. It's nutz.

Saying you do not want to pay for women's health is just saying you want women to pay more for healthcare than men. Women are stuck with the childbirth responsibilities in this world. Having men say......I can't get pregnant, let women pay for it is short sighted

Please explain why you want to force a woman that can't have children to pay for maternity care.

Because healthcare is a funny thing. Why should I have to pay the same as someone with a prexisting condition? You never know what you are going to come down with and insurance has to cover everything

I can't have children and I want a policy without maternity care.....but I want you to pick up the costs of my cancer treatments
Insurance works by pooling its applicants. That includes women, men, young, old

 

[rightwinger]

^ Projection. Just because you are to stupid to do anything about health care does not mean the rest of us are like you.

You cannot do anything to fix the healthcare system in this country

Can't be done... lol Yeah how could we possibly fix the best health care system in the world.

If you have the money

 

[Flopper]

I paid into insurance my whole life but barely used it. Irresponsible people did not. Instead they spent their insurance money on BMWs. Then they got cancer while not having any insurance. Now I get to pay for their mistake by paying much higher premiums so that they can get insured with pre-existing.

With Obamacare, that irresponsibility person is going have to pay for insurance to cover their healthcare problems so the rest of use are not stuck with their healthcare costs. One of primary purposes of Obamacare is to increase the size of the insurance pools by adding healthier people who are not buying insurance now thus bringing down the premiums of others who provide for their healthcare. Initially premiums will be higher until healthier people buy insurance but in a few years premiums will start falling as younger healthier people buy insurance.

 

[RKMBrown]

I paid into insurance my whole life but barely used it. Irresponsible people did not. Instead they spent their insurance money on BMWs. Then they got cancer while not having any insurance. Now I get to pay for their mistake by paying much higher premiums so that they can get insured with pre-existing.

With Obamacare, that irresponsibility person is going have to pay for insurance to cover their healthcare problems so the rest of use are not stuck with their healthcare costs. One of primary purposes of Obamacare is to increase the size of the insurance pools by adding healthier people who are not buying insurance now thus bringing down the premiums of others who provide for their healthcare. Initially premiums will be higher until healthier people buy insurance but in a few years premiums will start falling as younger healthier people buy insurance.

ROFL you are completely ignorant with regard to how insurance works and also ignorant as to how people work. Everyone in the nation pretty much is gonna end up dropping insurance until they have expensive health care needs, then they will sign up. Congrats, you idiots have killed the health insurance industry. Prices for individual plans are doubling and trippling this year. Prices for group plans will double and tripple next year. The result is healthy people will leave the group en mass. The result of which will be an annual 20-50% increase until the entire system busts. I give it 4years. Then we will have no choice but to go with single payer. That or the fine has to be moved up to 1k a month. You can't get something for nothing. You dorks are agreeing to hand over hundreds of thousands of dollars to people with pre-existing conditions to save them from the indignity of having to meet means testing by using up their assets first.

This country's health insurance industry is done, put a fork in it.

 

[Bfgrn]

This strikes me as hopelessly subjective. In any case, I wonder if you'd advocate for all of life's necessities as 'rights' in that case? Food, shelter, clothing, transportation?

As I said, I can conceive of health care as a service that government might provide - much as it provides basic education - but it makes no sense as a 'right'. Neither does education, fwiw. To claim that a product or service is a right is to fundamentally misunderstand what political rights are all about. They are freedoms, not guarantees of service.

I agree that the right to Health care is hopelessly subjective. However that does not mean that it should not be a right simply because it's hard to define.

As far as other basic necessities, these would fall under the basic right to life mentioned in the declaration of independence. Most courts would agree that a person does have the right to steal a loaf of bread if they are starving, to break into a building if they are in fear of dying from exposure. Most municipal governments do provide food, shelter, clothing and (if it's a necessity) transportation because most people do feel that everyone should have a right to these.

These are not enumerated in the constitution because of the complexity and limits of providing these.

Everyone has a right to seek healthcare. They do not have a right to take from me to pay for another's healthcare.

Insurance companies do it every month.

Insured pay 'hidden tax' for uninsured health care

WASHINGTON — The average U.S. family and their employers paid an extra $1,017 in health care premiums last year to compensate for the uninsured, according to a study to be released Thursday by an advocacy group for health care consumers.

Families USA, which supports expanded health care coverage, found that about 37% of health care costs for people without insurance — or a total of $42.7 billion — went unpaid last year. That cost eventually was shifted to the insured through higher premiums, according to the group.

"I don't think anybody has any idea about how much they are paying because of the need to cover the health care costs of the uninsured," said Ron Pollack, the group's executive director. "This is a hidden tax on all insurance premiums, whether it is paid by business for their work or by families when they purchase their own coverage."