Why have people come to believe health care is a "right" when it actually isn't?

[hunarcy]

The answer is that all rights - even those enumerated in the Bill of Rights - are limited. The supreme court has repeatedly stated that there is no such thing as an unlimited right.

IF there was a Right to Health Care, it would be a limited right - based on what level of Health Care could be provided given the medical resources and respected (not infringing on) the rights of medical professionals.

For example, a person who has had a heart attack may be entitled, by right, to be resuscitated, but pending the availability of medical resources, they may not have the right to triple bypass surgery.

The biggest challenge to the notion of Health Care being a right is delineating the exact limits of that right.

In some ways the medical professionals have already set de facto standards for the existence and limitations on people's rights to Health Care. I don't know if they have clearly codified these or whether it's left up to the discretion of indivdual medical professionals.

This strikes me as hopelessly subjective. In any case, I wonder if you'd advocate for all of life's necessities as 'rights' in that case? Food, shelter, clothing, transportation?

As I said, I can conceive of health care as a service that government might provide - much as it provides basic education - but it makes no sense as a 'right'. Neither does education, fwiw. To claim that a product or service is a right is to fundamentally misunderstand what political rights are all about. They are freedoms, not guarantees of service.

I agree that the right to Health care is hopelessly subjective. However that does not mean that it should not be a right simply because it's hard to define.

As far as other basic necessities, these would fall under the basic right to life mentioned in the declaration of independence. Most courts would agree that a person does have the right to steal a loaf of bread if they are starving, to break into a building if they are in fear of dying from exposure. Most municipal governments do provide food, shelter, clothing and (if it's a necessity) transportation because most people do feel that everyone should have a right to these.

These are not enumerated in the constitution because of the complexity and limits of providing these.

Everyone has a right to seek healthcare. They do not have a right to take from me to pay for another's healthcare.

 

[hunarcy]

You are starting to sound like a fool. Is that on purpose?
Here is the transcript of the Constitution:
Transcript of the Constitution of the United States - Official Text
And here is the transcript of the Bill of Rights amendments:
Bill of Rights Transcript Text

I dare you to cite for me the enumerated rights that you are talking about. Please provide me the list from the actual transcript.

You are apparently not reading closely. I said "Nobody ever said that the Bill of rights encapsulated a complete list of all rights that people will ever have."

So you're challenging me to provide you with a list which I just said did not exist.

Try to read more carefully before responding.

Ok, show me ONE RIGHT JUST ONE, that is provided to us in the bill of rights. Or perhaps you want to change your statements. Numerous posts including this one, have shown you talking about rights supposedly provided in the bill of rights. "a complete list" as if the bill of rights is a partial list, which follows from all of your prior statements. The bill is clearly poorly named, or perhaps meant to shut up the ignorant.

You have to right to worship as you choose. You have the right to express your political beliefs without limitation.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Because they are believing an emotional argument instead of a logical one. If people thought about it, they would realize that in order to get health care someone has to provide it to them. Logically, we don't have a right to other people's labor. That would be called slavery. But people don't think about it logically. They think about it emotionally.

What would Jesus do? Would He charge for healing the ill or infirm?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Why have people come to believe health care is a "right" when it actually isn't?

What’s sad and telling is how conservatives refuse to consider it a right, and actively seek to prevent Americans from having access to routine health maintenance.

Whether access to routine health maintenance is or isn’t a right shouldn’t be an issue of conflict, there should instead be consensus that access to routine health maintenance must be afforded to all Americans as a matter of ethical, appropriate, and pragmatic public policy, ‘right’ or not.

 

[Wry Catcher]

This strikes me as hopelessly subjective. In any case, I wonder if you'd advocate for all of life's necessities as 'rights' in that case? Food, shelter, clothing, transportation?

As I said, I can conceive of health care as a service that government might provide - much as it provides basic education - but it makes no sense as a 'right'. Neither does education, fwiw. To claim that a product or service is a right is to fundamentally misunderstand what political rights are all about. They are freedoms, not guarantees of service.

I agree that the right to Health care is hopelessly subjective. However that does not mean that it should not be a right simply because it's hard to define.

As far as other basic necessities, these would fall under the basic right to life mentioned in the declaration of independence. Most courts would agree that a person does have the right to steal a loaf of bread if they are starving, to break into a building if they are in fear of dying from exposure. Most municipal governments do provide food, shelter, clothing and (if it's a necessity) transportation because most people do feel that everyone should have a right to these.

These are not enumerated in the constitution because of the complexity and limits of providing these.

Everyone has a right to seek healthcare. They do not have a right to take from me to pay for another's healthcare.

No, they do not have that right. And you have every right to be selfish and callous. And I have the right to vote for lawmakers who will pass laws to tax the selfish and callous, and of course me, to provide for those in need. Simply because that is the right thing to do.

I don't see every needy person as morally corrupt and in poverty because of poor choices. Sure, some are, but many are not. I see our nation as a community, and I'm not alone. When natural disasters strike, most of America responds with money and goods to aid survivors; the callous conservatives do not. Need evidence, see what happened after Sandy struck the Northeast. Of course callous conservatives - i.e. the tea party republicans responded with a 'big fuck 'em'!

That same attitude permeates throughout the new right and includes the aged and infirm and those who are condemned to years of pain or death by insurance underwriters and policies which limit their care or deny it entirely. The ethos of most Americans reject such cold-blooded indifference.

 

[rightwinger]

Only a barbarian believes a person does not have a right to healthcare

 

[Meister]

We the people decide what will or will not be a right when we decide what kind of society, or country, we're going to be.

We the people have shown in poll after poll that "we the people" are against obamacare.
The administration just won't listen

 

[Meister]

Only a barbarian believes a person does not have a right to healthcare

I don't think that anyone wants to deny anybody from healthcare, leftie. I just think people don't want to have to pay for your healthcare.

 

[RKMBrown]

You are apparently not reading closely. I said "Nobody ever said that the Bill of rights encapsulated a complete list of all rights that people will ever have."

So you're challenging me to provide you with a list which I just said did not exist.

Try to read more carefully before responding.

Ok, show me ONE RIGHT JUST ONE, that is provided to us in the bill of rights. Or perhaps you want to change your statements. Numerous posts including this one, have shown you talking about rights supposedly provided in the bill of rights. "a complete list" as if the bill of rights is a partial list, which follows from all of your prior statements. The bill is clearly poorly named, or perhaps meant to shut up the ignorant.

You have to right to worship as you choose. You have the right to express your political beliefs without limitation.

Those rights are "mentioned" they are not provided by the bill or rights. The Bill of Rights explicitly prohibits the federal government from restricting those rights. There is a fundamental difference between providing a right and restricting someone from taking the right away from you. While you may be somewhat confused in so far as the results of the two views are similar. However, they are not the same. The result of a belief system where our rights are "provided" by government is one in which people assume they have none unless they are listed.

The bill of rights restricts the power of government, it does not provide us with liberty.

 

[rightwinger]

Only a barbarian believes a person does not have a right to healthcare

I don't think that anyone wants to deny anybody from healthcare, leftie. I just think people don't want to have to pay for your healthcare.

I am perfectly able to pay for my insurance and have no problem with my country supporting those who are unable to pay

Only the let em die Republicans feel otherwise

 

[RKMBrown]

Only a barbarian believes a person does not have a right to healthcare

I don't think that anyone wants to deny anybody from healthcare, leftie. I just think people don't want to have to pay for your healthcare.

But if we don't pay for his health care he'll have to sell his BMW.

 

[RKMBrown]

Only a barbarian believes a person does not have a right to healthcare

I don't think that anyone wants to deny anybody from healthcare, leftie. I just think people don't want to have to pay for your healthcare.

I am perfectly able to pay for my insurance and have no problem with my country supporting those who are unable to pay

Only the let em die Republicans feel otherwise

We already had medicaid for the poor. This plan has nothing to do with supporting those unable to pay. It's redistributing money from wealthy taxpayers (>4x poverty) to less wealthy tax payers (between poverty and 4x poverty).

 

[dblack]

Only a barbarian believes a person does not have a right to healthcare

I don't think that anyone wants to deny anybody from healthcare, leftie. I just think people don't want to have to pay for your healthcare.

I am perfectly able to pay for my insurance and have no problem with my country supporting those who are unable to pay.

Neither do I. Now, if you could just get over your desire to bully others, you'd have a tolerable political position.

 

[rightwinger]

I don't think that anyone wants to deny anybody from healthcare, leftie. I just think people don't want to have to pay for your healthcare.

I am perfectly able to pay for my insurance and have no problem with my country supporting those who are unable to pay

Only the let em die Republicans feel otherwise

We already had medicaid for the poor. This plan has nothing to do with supporting those unable to pay. It's redistributing money from wealthy taxpayers (>4x poverty) to less wealthy tax payers (between poverty and 4x poverty).

It is providing a vital service to American citizens. Millions of Americans are finding themselves priced out of the healthcare market. Even those not at the poverty level

 

[Spiderman]

I am perfectly able to pay for my insurance and have no problem with my country supporting those who are unable to pay

Only the let em die Republicans feel otherwise

We already had medicaid for the poor. This plan has nothing to do with supporting those unable to pay. It's redistributing money from wealthy taxpayers (>4x poverty) to less wealthy tax payers (between poverty and 4x poverty).

It is providing a vital service to American citizens. Millions of Americans are finding themselves priced out of the healthcare market. Even those not at the poverty level

If millions can't afford insurance then why do you support the government forcing people to buy coverage they don't need?

How is making me pay for maternity care and birth control, drug counseling and a whole host of other services I don't need or want helping make insurance more affordable for me or anyone else for that matter ?

 

[RKMBrown]

I am perfectly able to pay for my insurance and have no problem with my country supporting those who are unable to pay

Only the let em die Republicans feel otherwise

We already had medicaid for the poor. This plan has nothing to do with supporting those unable to pay. It's redistributing money from wealthy taxpayers (>4x poverty) to less wealthy tax payers (between poverty and 4x poverty).

It is providing a vital service to American citizens. Millions of Americans are finding themselves priced out of the healthcare market. Even those not at the poverty level

Millions of Americans are finding out that Obama Care is doubling and in some cases tripling the cost of insurance. Next year when this hits the corporations tens of millions will get hit by it. The only people that are not being screwed over by Obama Care are the people Obama has cherry picked to exempt, those who will be getting the largest subsidies, and those with pre-existing. But even those people getting the subsidies are merely getting the price everyone else had to pay before OCare took effect.

 

[rightwinger]

We already had medicaid for the poor. This plan has nothing to do with supporting those unable to pay. It's redistributing money from wealthy taxpayers (>4x poverty) to less wealthy tax payers (between poverty and 4x poverty).

It is providing a vital service to American citizens. Millions of Americans are finding themselves priced out of the healthcare market. Even those not at the poverty level

If millions can't afford insurance then why do you support the government forcing people to buy coverage they don't need?

How is making me pay for maternity care and birth control, drug counseling and a whole host of other services I don't need or want helping make insurance more affordable for me or anyone else for that matter ?

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

 

[RKMBrown]

We already had medicaid for the poor. This plan has nothing to do with supporting those unable to pay. It's redistributing money from wealthy taxpayers (>4x poverty) to less wealthy tax payers (between poverty and 4x poverty).

It is providing a vital service to American citizens. Millions of Americans are finding themselves priced out of the healthcare market. Even those not at the poverty level

If millions can't afford insurance then why do you support the government forcing people to buy coverage they don't need?

How is making me pay for maternity care and birth control, drug counseling and a whole host of other services I don't need or want helping make insurance more affordable for me or anyone else for that matter ?

It's libtard logic. They see a free market where maternity is optional but expensive and decide to spread the expense around by making everyone pay for it. They see Paul only making 40k a year where Peter is making 80k a year and decide to take 20k from Peter to pay Paul. There all is fair now.

 

[Spiderman]

It is providing a vital service to American citizens. Millions of Americans are finding themselves priced out of the healthcare market. Even those not at the poverty level

If millions can't afford insurance then why do you support the government forcing people to buy coverage they don't need?

How is making me pay for maternity care and birth control, drug counseling and a whole host of other services I don't need or want helping make insurance more affordable for me or anyone else for that matter ?

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

What about women who choose not to have kids?

And where did I ever say people didn't need health care?

I asked a simple question. How does forcing people to buy coverage for things they don't need or want help them reduce the price of their insurance?

And btw health care and health insurance are 2 completely different things.

 

[rightwinger]

If millions can't afford insurance then why do you support the government forcing people to buy coverage they don't need?

How is making me pay for maternity care and birth control, drug counseling and a whole host of other services I don't need or want helping make insurance more affordable for me or anyone else for that matter ?

Everyone needs healthcare.......the rest of the world has already figured it out

Quit your bitching about covering women's services. Women deserve to pay the same rates as men. They shouldn't pay more just because they are the ones who get pregnant

What about women who choose not to have kids?

And where did I ever say people didn't need health care?

I asked a simple question. How does forcing people to buy coverage for things they don't need or want help them reduce the price of their insurance?

And btw health care and health insurance are 2 completely different things.

Yes, healthcare and health insurance are two different things.......but this country is to stupid to do anything about healthcare