CDZ Why I support Universal healthcare, and why I don't.

[Sactowndog]

Universal coverage can also include public/private partnerships, such as our current Medicare / Medicare Supplement / Medicare Advantage program, which could be tweaked to work for all Americans. It would also be individual and portable, include dynamic choice, free market competition and innovation, and take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American employers.

Right now, we have SIX (6) different healthcare delivery/payment systems, none of which communicates directly with the others:

1. Medicare
2. Medicaid
3. VA
4. Group
5. Individual
6. Indigent

I wonder how many people really think that's a smart "system".

Our system is undoubtedly broken and overly costly, but I don't think that handing complete control over to the government is the answer either. I wouldn't be opposed to a hybrid system that composed a public health insurance option for those who want it while still preserving private insurance options for those who still want that. However, the public system should be 100% funded and paid for. In fact, I think a completely new and separate tax attached to every transaction across the board with the money going into a dedicated health care fund (not the general fund where it can pissed away) would be a great way to do it. That way we all see on our receipts exactly how much it's costing us and every year Congress should be required to review the fund and either raise or lower the tax appropriately based on its solubility.

Many of the same countries that have some form of UHC also have a consumption tax to pay for it. The problem as I see it with a financial transaction tax is that you are essentially taxing investments, and that ain't a good idea in a capitalist economy. And it ain't just the rich that would pay it either, anybody with a retirement account of some kind would also be paying it. And I highly doubt Congress will ever lower that tax rate, they'll just spend more money wherever they want to, they always do.

the advantage of a consumption tax or VAT tax is you could vary it for things like cigarettes, alcohol, pot and other items that contribute to ill health.

 

[task0778]

Universal coverage can also include public/private partnerships, such as our current Medicare / Medicare Supplement / Medicare Advantage program, which could be tweaked to work for all Americans. It would also be individual and portable, include dynamic choice, free market competition and innovation, and take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American employers.

Right now, we have SIX (6) different healthcare delivery/payment systems, none of which communicates directly with the others:

1. Medicare
2. Medicaid
3. VA
4. Group
5. Individual
6. Indigent

I wonder how many people really think that's a smart "system".

Our system is undoubtedly broken and overly costly, but I don't think that handing complete control over to the government is the answer either. I wouldn't be opposed to a hybrid system that composed a public health insurance option for those who want it while still preserving private insurance options for those who still want that. However, the public system should be 100% funded and paid for. In fact, I think a completely new and separate tax attached to every transaction across the board with the money going into a dedicated health care fund (not the general fund where it can pissed away) would be a great way to do it. That way we all see on our receipts exactly how much it's costing us and every year Congress should be required to review the fund and either raise or lower the tax appropriately based on its solubility.

Many of the same countries that have some form of UHC also have a consumption tax to pay for it. The problem as I see it with a financial transaction tax is that you are essentially taxing investments, and that ain't a good idea in a capitalist economy. And it ain't just the rich that would pay it either, anybody with a retirement account of some kind would also be paying it. And I highly doubt Congress will ever lower that tax rate, they'll just spend more money wherever they want to, they always do.

the advantage of a consumption tax or VAT tax is you could vary it for things like cigarettes, alcohol, pot and other items that contribute to ill health.

And you can also exempt things like food, certain clothing, and school supplies.

 

[Votto]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

I use the VA and find it just a good of a healthcare system as any private practitioner.

Ok, so if the VA is just as good, why do veterans all across this country pay out of pocket to seek other health care?

 

[gipper]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

Medicare works just fine. Just provide for all Americans.

It’s preposterous the the entire western world and many third world nations have UHC, but not the USA.

The fools running our HC system have made it so expensive, that now UHC is cheaper and obviously more effective as it covers all Americans. Our HC system is a scam.

This issue is another example proving my point that the two political crime families are very much alike. They are both controlled by the ultra wealthy, and they don’t want UHC. So the two parties oppose it, including Joe, Kamala, and most D crooks.

 

[Erinwltr]

What about the humongous cost to UHC? Look at the taxes you gotta pay in those countries that have it, and it ain't just the rich and well-off that pay higher taxes. EVERYBODY pays A LOT if they have an income, and I believe in most of those places they have a consumption tax on top of a heavy tax burden. And it ain't free either, you have co-pays for a lot of the medical services you use.

Then there's an access problem, with as many people as we have relative to the the number of providers and facilities, people are gonna have to wait for quite awhile sometimes for care. And when you put in price controls you reduce the compensation to providers, thereby making those fields of endeavor less attractive. IOW, fewer doctors and nurses down the road. How many rural clinics and hospital would have to close?

Then there's the question of innovation for drugs and treatments. What happens when you try to reduce the costs? You end up with less money going into R&D, it's costs money to develop and test new drugs and treatments; if it isn't deemed cost effective then we won't get nearly as many medical advances. You think the ret of the world will pic up the slack? Dream on.

I can see huge problems with fraud, waste, and abuse. Big money attracts big crooks in large numbers. The truth is that the gov't sucks at everything it tries to do, even if well intentioned. There are reasons why the VA system sucks, and UHC failed in Vermont, and other states like Colorado and California looked at it and decided not to try it.

And for all the high taxes, he quality of care is bad and getting worse.......look at actual articles on the collapse of these healthcare systems......they don't have enough doctors and nurses, they continually reduce the amount of care you get, especially when you age.............

Um, nope. Try again Sparky.

 

[Erinwltr]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

I use the VA and find it just a good of a healthcare system as any private practitioner.

Ok, so if the VA is just as good, why do veterans all across this country pay out of pocket to seek other health care?

They don't, and my father doesn't. Retired Navy. He's been seeing his own doctors since he retired. What's the big deal.

I think you guys just continue ridiculous, urban mythhs.

 

[Moonglow]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

I use the VA and find it just a good of a healthcare system as any private practitioner.

Ok, so if the VA is just as good, why do veterans all across this country pay out of pocket to seek other health care?

I have no idea since the Veterans Choice program allows vets to see non VA doctors and specialist.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

Medicare works just fine. Just provide for all Americans.

It’s preposterous the the entire western world and many third world nations have UHC, but not the USA.

The fools running our HC system have made it so expensive, that now UHC is cheaper and obviously more effective as it covers all Americans. Our HC system is a scam.

This issue is another example proving my point that the two political crime families are very much alike. They are both controlled by the ultra wealthy, and they don’t want UHC. So the two parties oppose it, including Joe, Kamala, and most D crooks.

Again, you are dismissing a fact.
We pay massive taxes to protect them. Because of our massive military, they don't have to spend vast sums of money for their own, individual militaries. America spends just under $1 Trillion to maintain it's super massive military. I have said for decades, countries that benefit from our military, which happens to be the entire western society, should pay America an annual stipend. It is only fair.
Why over and over and over do people constantly dismiss this fact??? Why do you?
America gave just under $40 Billion in foreign aid just last year alone. Some of this is in the form of "free" or very low interest loans. Sometimes they are not paid back, or sometimes it is sort of a conveyor belt. A country borrow $500m one year, and then use future aid over time to "pay it back"... which of course in reality - they did not.
In ways, America is the dining room buffet table to the world. Every single year countries line up to get YOUR money. Other countries, like every single European country, do NOT pay their promised stipend to support NATO and the U.N. - knowing all too well "good ol' America" will pay for it.

 

[gipper]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

Medicare works just fine. Just provide for all Americans.

It’s preposterous the the entire western world and many third world nations have UHC, but not the USA.

The fools running our HC system have made it so expensive, that now UHC is cheaper and obviously more effective as it covers all Americans. Our HC system is a scam.

This issue is another example proving my point that the two political crime families are very much alike. They are both controlled by the ultra wealthy, and they don’t want UHC. So the two parties oppose it, including Joe, Kamala, and most D crooks.

Again, you are dismissing a fact.
We pay massive taxes to protect them. Because of our massive military, they don't have to spend vast sums of money for their own, individual militaries. America spends just under $1 Trillion to maintain it's super massive military. I have said for decades, countries that benefit from our military, which happens to be the entire western society, should pay America an annual stipend. It is only fair.
Why over and over and over do people constantly dismiss this fact??? Why do you?
America gave just under $40 Billion in foreign aid just last year alone. Some of this is in the form of "free" or very low interest loans. Sometimes they are not paid back, or sometimes it is sort of a conveyor belt. A country borrow $500m one year, and then use future aid over time to "pay it back"... which of course in reality - they did not.
In ways, America is the dining room buffet table to the world. Every single year countries line up to get YOUR money. Other countries, like every single European country, do NOT pay their promised stipend to support NATO and the U.N. - knowing all too well "good ol' America" will pay for it.

Bogus argument. Our corrupt government shouldn’t be spending taxpayer dollars on a massive military. The only reason they do is the Oligarchy loves war, as nothing is more profitable for them.

We need to cut military spending drastically, close the Pentagon, bring all our personal home, and dissolve the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Millions of Americans are suffering while our criminal government spends trillions on a military that only benefits the ultra wealthy.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

Medicare works just fine. Just provide for all Americans.

It’s preposterous the the entire western world and many third world nations have UHC, but not the USA.

The fools running our HC system have made it so expensive, that now UHC is cheaper and obviously more effective as it covers all Americans. Our HC system is a scam.

This issue is another example proving my point that the two political crime families are very much alike. They are both controlled by the ultra wealthy, and they don’t want UHC. So the two parties oppose it, including Joe, Kamala, and most D crooks.

Again, you are dismissing a fact.
We pay massive taxes to protect them. Because of our massive military, they don't have to spend vast sums of money for their own, individual militaries. America spends just under $1 Trillion to maintain it's super massive military. I have said for decades, countries that benefit from our military, which happens to be the entire western society, should pay America an annual stipend. It is only fair.
Why over and over and over do people constantly dismiss this fact??? Why do you?
America gave just under $40 Billion in foreign aid just last year alone. Some of this is in the form of "free" or very low interest loans. Sometimes they are not paid back, or sometimes it is sort of a conveyor belt. A country borrow $500m one year, and then use future aid over time to "pay it back"... which of course in reality - they did not.
In ways, America is the dining room buffet table to the world. Every single year countries line up to get YOUR money. Other countries, like every single European country, do NOT pay their promised stipend to support NATO and the U.N. - knowing all too well "good ol' America" will pay for it.

Bogus argument. Our corrupt government shouldn’t be spending taxpayer dollars on a massive military. The only reason they do is the Oligarchy loves war, as nothing is more profitable for them.

We need to cut military spending drastically, close the Pentagon, bring all our personal home, and dissolve the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Millions of Americans are suffering while our criminal government spends trillions on a military that only benefits the ultra wealthy.

Thank you, so you agree that other countries in good part can only afford UHC because they have such small military budgets.
So then you must agree to stop comparing us to them.
Glad you admit this.

 

[gipper]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

Medicare works just fine. Just provide for all Americans.

It’s preposterous the the entire western world and many third world nations have UHC, but not the USA.

The fools running our HC system have made it so expensive, that now UHC is cheaper and obviously more effective as it covers all Americans. Our HC system is a scam.

This issue is another example proving my point that the two political crime families are very much alike. They are both controlled by the ultra wealthy, and they don’t want UHC. So the two parties oppose it, including Joe, Kamala, and most D crooks.

Again, you are dismissing a fact.
We pay massive taxes to protect them. Because of our massive military, they don't have to spend vast sums of money for their own, individual militaries. America spends just under $1 Trillion to maintain it's super massive military. I have said for decades, countries that benefit from our military, which happens to be the entire western society, should pay America an annual stipend. It is only fair.
Why over and over and over do people constantly dismiss this fact??? Why do you?
America gave just under $40 Billion in foreign aid just last year alone. Some of this is in the form of "free" or very low interest loans. Sometimes they are not paid back, or sometimes it is sort of a conveyor belt. A country borrow $500m one year, and then use future aid over time to "pay it back"... which of course in reality - they did not.
In ways, America is the dining room buffet table to the world. Every single year countries line up to get YOUR money. Other countries, like every single European country, do NOT pay their promised stipend to support NATO and the U.N. - knowing all too well "good ol' America" will pay for it.

Bogus argument. Our corrupt government shouldn’t be spending taxpayer dollars on a massive military. The only reason they do is the Oligarchy loves war, as nothing is more profitable for them.

We need to cut military spending drastically, close the Pentagon, bring all our personal home, and dissolve the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Millions of Americans are suffering while our criminal government spends trillions on a military that only benefits the ultra wealthy.

Thank you, so you agree that other countries in good part can only afford UHC because they have such small military budgets.
So then you must agree to stop comparing us to them.
Glad you admit this.

No one needs a large military budget. It’s a waste and detrimental to society.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

Medicare works just fine. Just provide for all Americans.

It’s preposterous the the entire western world and many third world nations have UHC, but not the USA.

The fools running our HC system have made it so expensive, that now UHC is cheaper and obviously more effective as it covers all Americans. Our HC system is a scam.

This issue is another example proving my point that the two political crime families are very much alike. They are both controlled by the ultra wealthy, and they don’t want UHC. So the two parties oppose it, including Joe, Kamala, and most D crooks.

Again, you are dismissing a fact.
We pay massive taxes to protect them. Because of our massive military, they don't have to spend vast sums of money for their own, individual militaries. America spends just under $1 Trillion to maintain it's super massive military. I have said for decades, countries that benefit from our military, which happens to be the entire western society, should pay America an annual stipend. It is only fair.
Why over and over and over do people constantly dismiss this fact??? Why do you?
America gave just under $40 Billion in foreign aid just last year alone. Some of this is in the form of "free" or very low interest loans. Sometimes they are not paid back, or sometimes it is sort of a conveyor belt. A country borrow $500m one year, and then use future aid over time to "pay it back"... which of course in reality - they did not.
In ways, America is the dining room buffet table to the world. Every single year countries line up to get YOUR money. Other countries, like every single European country, do NOT pay their promised stipend to support NATO and the U.N. - knowing all too well "good ol' America" will pay for it.

Bogus argument. Our corrupt government shouldn’t be spending taxpayer dollars on a massive military. The only reason they do is the Oligarchy loves war, as nothing is more profitable for them.

We need to cut military spending drastically, close the Pentagon, bring all our personal home, and dissolve the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Millions of Americans are suffering while our criminal government spends trillions on a military that only benefits the ultra wealthy.

Thank you, so you agree that other countries in good part can only afford UHC because they have such small military budgets.
So then you must agree to stop comparing us to them.
Glad you admit this.

No one needs a large military budget. It’s a waste and detrimental to society.

Just what everyone thought in the 1930s.
And exactly why Hitler was allowed to do what he did. Indeed, If Hitler and Stalin could have worked together... the world map wouldn't look anything like it does today. Respectfully, you are a fool if you believe world peace is achievable without a strong defense in place, and a strong threat of offensive strength as well.
Take France, they placed all their chickens into the defensive basket. Believing they had an impenetrable wall of defense. Yet, even with only a portion of his army... Hitler took France in 6 weeks.
Ideally, of course, it would be wonderful if we could live in a world without a single military force. If all nations agreed to dismantle all military weaponry. AWESOME!!!
But that is foolish, even childish thinking. It would lead to world war III in no time.

 

[flack]

I run a small company with 8 employees. I make enough money to support Bonzi and I comfortably. I haven't worried about paying bills for decades. If I/we want something enough, we buy it. Our retirement is secure because I made it that way. Bonzi doesn't need to work for financial reasons... she only needs to work so we have healthcare insurance. For 2 people in their 50s... decent healthcare insurance is astronomical. Thank you Obamacare for raising insurance costs to the moon for those needing ACTUAL insurance and not just a plastic card that pretends to be insurance so you can donate money to the government.

ACTUAL health insurance that doesn't have ENORMOUS out-of-pocket costs, so high in fact... it is highly unlikely you will ever get a single penny of benefits.
REAL insurance with REAL coverage would cost us about $1600 a month. (I define REAL as one with less than $2000 deductible, otherwise you have something pretending to be healthcare coverage, when in reality it is catastrophic care only - another gift from Obamacare)
Through Bonzi's job it costs us a little over $500/mo. for the premium care that has a deductible of $2500.

So for those reasons I wish we had Universal Care... so we could have coverage without having to have a full time job to get it. Especially when we get to age 60 or so... at that point we have enough liquid assets to quit full time jobs and work when we want. But cannot do so, because health insurance is prohibitively expensive.


Why I DON'T SUPPORT UHC.... because it is the federal government.
And the American federal government is wholly corrupt, inept, wasteful and the needs of the population are a very-very distant 2nd to special interest, globalism and corporatism. As we saw with Obamacare... the government, even when liberals are the ones that did it, gave more thought to protecting Pharma, insurance conglomerates and the $40 Billion medical device industry so so so much more than what people needed.
I simply do not believe the American corrupt system can do the job without fucking us over and over while gifting corporations and special interest.

Sometimes I really do think about becoming an ex-Pat.

Medicare works just fine. Just provide for all Americans.

It’s preposterous the the entire western world and many third world nations have UHC, but not the USA.

The fools running our HC system have made it so expensive, that now UHC is cheaper and obviously more effective as it covers all Americans. Our HC system is a scam.

This issue is another example proving my point that the two political crime families are very much alike. They are both controlled by the ultra wealthy, and they don’t want UHC. So the two parties oppose it, including Joe, Kamala, and most D crooks.

Again, you are dismissing a fact.
We pay massive taxes to protect them. Because of our massive military, they don't have to spend vast sums of money for their own, individual militaries. America spends just under $1 Trillion to maintain it's super massive military. I have said for decades, countries that benefit from our military, which happens to be the entire western society, should pay America an annual stipend. It is only fair.
Why over and over and over do people constantly dismiss this fact??? Why do you?
America gave just under $40 Billion in foreign aid just last year alone. Some of this is in the form of "free" or very low interest loans. Sometimes they are not paid back, or sometimes it is sort of a conveyor belt. A country borrow $500m one year, and then use future aid over time to "pay it back"... which of course in reality - they did not.
In ways, America is the dining room buffet table to the world. Every single year countries line up to get YOUR money. Other countries, like every single European country, do NOT pay their promised stipend to support NATO and the U.N. - knowing all too well "good ol' America" will pay for it.

Bogus argument. Our corrupt government shouldn’t be spending taxpayer dollars on a massive military. The only reason they do is the Oligarchy loves war, as nothing is more profitable for them.

We need to cut military spending drastically, close the Pentagon, bring all our personal home, and dissolve the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Millions of Americans are suffering while our criminal government spends trillions on a military that only benefits the ultra wealthy.

If you did that the world would be at war in less than a year.

 

[Pete7469]

Bogus argument. Our corrupt government shouldn’t be spending taxpayer dollars on a massive military. The only reason they do is the Oligarchy loves war, as nothing is more profitable for them.

We need to cut military spending drastically, close the Pentagon, bring all our personal home, and dissolve the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Millions of Americans are suffering while our criminal government spends trillions on a military that only benefits the ultra wealthy.

While I do agree with you that we basically do not need to be spending that much on the military, we would not be a nation with a 30 trillion dollar credit card bill and a credit line that seems to have no limit.

Not that I'm advocating it either.

It's actually unbelievable to me that our currency actually supports most of the world's currency, and that anyone excepts the paper has any value. Most of it isn't even paper at this point, it's just millions of kilobits on bank computers around the world. I can only assume that at some point this shits the bed and the economic crash will lead to medieval conditions not seen since the fall of Rome. Except this time there will be a fuckton of guns and ammo available.


.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Bogus argument. Our corrupt government shouldn’t be spending taxpayer dollars on a massive military. The only reason they do is the Oligarchy loves war, as nothing is more profitable for them.

We need to cut military spending drastically, close the Pentagon, bring all our personal home, and dissolve the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Millions of Americans are suffering while our criminal government spends trillions on a military that only benefits the ultra wealthy.

While I do agree with you that we basically do not need to be spending that much on the military, we would not be a nation with a 30 trillion dollar credit card bill and a credit line that seems to have no limit.

Not that I'm advocating it either.

It's actually unbelievable to me that our currency actually supports most of the world's currency, and that anyone excepts the paper has any value. Most of it isn't even paper at this point, it's just millions of kilobits on bank computers around the world. I can only assume that at some point this shits the bed and the economic crash will lead to medieval conditions not scene since the fall of Rome. Except this time there will be a fuckton of guns and ammo available.


.

It is a very simple economic principle. One that is filled with sand and will always end poorly.
And it is this.... Treating debt as income.
Debt as income has been the core of both personal and public economies since the late 1970s.
The federal government takes this principle to a whole other level, because there is no one to stop them.
It is a form of insanity really.
Debt can be very useful of course, and is absolutely cruicial when used properly. The problem is when debt is treated as income to cover ordinary expenses/static expenses.

 

[task0778]

What about the humongous cost to UHC? Look at the taxes you gotta pay in those countries that have it, and it ain't just the rich and well-off that pay higher taxes. EVERYBODY pays A LOT if they have an income, and I believe in most of those places they have a consumption tax on top of a heavy tax burden. And it ain't free either, you have co-pays for a lot of the medical services you use.

Then there's an access problem, with as many people as we have relative to the the number of providers and facilities, people are gonna have to wait for quite awhile sometimes for care. And when you put in price controls you reduce the compensation to providers, thereby making those fields of endeavor less attractive. IOW, fewer doctors and nurses down the road. How many rural clinics and hospital would have to close?

Then there's the question of innovation for drugs and treatments. What happens when you try to reduce the costs? You end up with less money going into R&D, it's costs money to develop and test new drugs and treatments; if it isn't deemed cost effective then we won't get nearly as many medical advances. You think the ret of the world will pic up the slack? Dream on.

I can see huge problems with fraud, waste, and abuse. Big money attracts big crooks in large numbers. The truth is that the gov't sucks at everything it tries to do, even if well intentioned. There are reasons why the VA system sucks, and UHC failed in Vermont, and other states like Colorado and California looked at it and decided not to try it.

And for all the high taxes, he quality of care is bad and getting worse.......look at actual articles on the collapse of these healthcare systems......they don't have enough doctors and nurses, they continually reduce the amount of care you get, especially when you age.............

Um, nope. Try again Sparky.

Do you really believe that if this country went to UHC that we have enough hospitals, facilities, doctors, nurses, and health care professionals to handle the increased number of patients? If you do then you have lost touch with reality. All these other UHC countries, NONE of them have anywhere near the population that we do, and ALL of them have access problems and waiting lists.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Universal coverage can also include public/private partnerships, such as our current Medicare / Medicare Supplement / Medicare Advantage program, which could be tweaked to work for all Americans. It would also be individual and portable, include dynamic choice, free market competition and innovation, and take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American employers.

Right now, we have SIX (6) different healthcare delivery/payment systems, none of which communicates directly with the others:

1. Medicare
2. Medicaid
3. VA
4. Group
5. Individual
6. Indigent

I wonder how many people really think that's a smart "system".

Smart systems and government are mutually exclusive. Just about all Federal expansion that has happened over the last 100 years has resulted in massive inefficiencies and fraud which of course tax payers pay for. And of course the tax code itself continues to grow despite the tepid calls for "simplification".

Due to corrupt gerrymandering on both sides, as well as both sides together with the media work VERY hard to constantly keep the population divided - there is no accountability in both houses. No matter what they do, no matter how bad public opinion is of them - they get re-elected over and over and over. So there is absolutely no incentive to change, thus the corruption will continue.

Most people who use the term "gerrymander" have no idea to what it means.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Universal coverage can also include public/private partnerships, such as our current Medicare / Medicare Supplement / Medicare Advantage program, which could be tweaked to work for all Americans. It would also be individual and portable, include dynamic choice, free market competition and innovation, and take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American employers.

Right now, we have SIX (6) different healthcare delivery/payment systems, none of which communicates directly with the others:

1. Medicare
2. Medicaid
3. VA
4. Group
5. Individual
6. Indigent

I wonder how many people really think that's a smart "system".

Smart systems and government are mutually exclusive. Just about all Federal expansion that has happened over the last 100 years has resulted in massive inefficiencies and fraud which of course tax payers pay for. And of course the tax code itself continues to grow despite the tepid calls for "simplification".

Due to corrupt gerrymandering on both sides, as well as both sides together with the media work VERY hard to constantly keep the population divided - there is no accountability in both houses. No matter what they do, no matter how bad public opinion is of them - they get re-elected over and over and over. So there is absolutely no incentive to change, thus the corruption will continue.

Most people who use the term "gerrymander" have no idea to what it means.

I do

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

...Sadly in our country too many resources go into the elderly and not enough resources go into the young.

Good Lord is it possible you could be any more wrong?? Or anyone be anymore wrong??
I will let you ruminate on that one a bit more and give you a second chance to think that one through.
Holy cow.

In terms of healthcare I’m not wrong at all. We spend way too much money on extending the lives of the elderly a few short years.

Can't be true if your country's life expectancy is quite a distance below that of the world's leading democracies!
That should make you aware of how wrong your mentality of greed really is!
And your country's infant mortality rate is not even on par with those countries.

'THOSE' countries you people refer to as socialist or communist!

Out infant mortality rate has more to do with failure of minorities to get pre-natal care, drug abuse and alcoholism. That's is something which other countries do not have to deal.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Universal coverage can also include public/private partnerships, such as our current Medicare / Medicare Supplement / Medicare Advantage program, which could be tweaked to work for all Americans. It would also be individual and portable, include dynamic choice, free market competition and innovation, and take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American employers.

Right now, we have SIX (6) different healthcare delivery/payment systems, none of which communicates directly with the others:

1. Medicare
2. Medicaid
3. VA
4. Group
5. Individual
6. Indigent

I wonder how many people really think that's a smart "system".

Smart systems and government are mutually exclusive. Just about all Federal expansion that has happened over the last 100 years has resulted in massive inefficiencies and fraud which of course tax payers pay for. And of course the tax code itself continues to grow despite the tepid calls for "simplification".

Due to corrupt gerrymandering on both sides, as well as both sides together with the media work VERY hard to constantly keep the population divided - there is no accountability in both houses. No matter what they do, no matter how bad public opinion is of them - they get re-elected over and over and over. So there is absolutely no incentive to change, thus the corruption will continue.

Most people who use the term "gerrymander" have no idea to what it means.

I do

Apparently not.

Explain how gerrymandering applies to your comment, please.