Why is it so hard to have a civil discussion in the Israel/Palestine forum?

[Challenger]

On the assumption this is a serious question, my serious answer would have to be, the Forum Moderators and staff. Ultimately they bear the responsibility as to the level of invective, name calling, uncivil behaviour, etc. that takes place on their board. They have it within their power to prevent behaviour they consider unsuitable so if people are allowed to get away with being rude and uncivil, it's human nature to respond in kind; there are no saints here. I have noticed there is a Clean Debate Forum on this board but it's unclear whether or not the Israel-Palestine question can be discussed there, but if you're willing to give it a go, I won't mind joining you or anyone else willing to have a serious discussion on this topic, there.

I'd say they have the authority to prevent it, but the only way someone has power over you, is if you give it to them. Moderators can say to me, "Don't drop the f-bomb, or you're gonna get it!" But it's "my" decision on whether that f-bomb gets dropped (or not). The point is, I believe, for the most part, everyone is responsible for everything that happens in their life. The level (or amount) of responsibility, depends on the situation or issue.

In regards to the OP, each one of us is responsible for the level of vitriol we contribute to the conversation, or the level of vitriol we keep out of the conversation. Take RoccoR and Tinnmore, for example. Two people, one I disagree with a lot and the other I agree with all the time, one pro-Israeli, the other pro-Palestinian, both have a lot to say and are not shy in saying it. But both are also beacons of civility. I've never seen Tinny go off; and I can only remember RoccoR going off once, but that was mostly my fault for pushing his buttons hard, when I was in a particularly (alcohol enhanced) foul mood.

Aside from that one time, both posters are showing how its done. They're showing we can still get our point across (without selling out our values) and say it without all the complimentary hostility. Whether we choose to do the same, is our call, not the moderators.

Hi Billo, while I agree with a lot of the above, sadly I strongly suspect this forum appears to be over-run with ignorant or ill-informed, generally "right-wing" (but not exclusively), paid Hasbarists whose job it is to sabotage any meaningful discourse on this topic. This is evidenced in their constant repetition of Hasbara talking points, (regardless of how often they are discredited) and a predilection for resorting to "shouting" and "name calling" at every opportunity. While it can be entertaining, from time to time, to "poke the monkey cage with a stick" it adds nothing to the the general discourse and you do run the risk of getting hit with the faeces they throw at you as a result.

I for one don't mind being proved wrong and some posts by RoccoR have made me sit back and re-examine my position from time to time, which is a good thing. While occasionally persuasive at times, RoccoR's posting is as much his own subjective interpretation as an objective assessment.

As for the Moderators and Staff, they clearly have their own rules and guidlines as regards intervention and it's not about "power over others", it's about "guiding the discussion" (-or not). Coyote, for example, posts well reasoned and clear comments designed to challange assertions without necesarily instilling hostility or provoking a hostile response, so reasoned, civil, discussion is quite possible. I've seen, and been involved in, fascinating discussions on this subject in other forums whose policies are more restrictive than those here. Similarly, I've been to forums that are far worse than this one.; suffice to say I've not stayed around there.

Ultimately this is an American political forum open to all sorts and as the saying goes, "if you can't take the heat..."

Many internet forums use Mortimer J. Adler's "Rules for conducting a Discussion" found here How to Think About the Great Ideas From the Great Books of Western Civilization Mortimer J. Adler 9780812694123 Amazon.com Books but I'm not sure they'd work here.

 

[Challenger]

toastman, et al,

I cannot help but think that behind many of the incidents, there is a concerted effort to instigate an anti-Israeli event for media exploitation.

It's not about blaming the victim. It's about asking the question of why do Palestinians continue to throw rocks, Molotov cocktails etc... At soldiers when they know they can get hurt?
People who are not brainwashed know that Palestinians are encouraged to do so in order to provoke a response from the IDF for their propaganda war, swhich BTW they are winning.

v/r
R

Even if that were the case, the pertinent question is why is the IDF so monumentaly stupid as to fall for it every time?

Perhaps it not stupidity but rather a conscious decision to protect Israeli lives at the cost of some media points. On the other hand, Hamas seems more than happy to exchange the lives of those hapless "refugees" for a few media points.
So who, exactly, is acting stupidly and what kind of moron would support Hamas?

Not quite sure how shooting and killing children protects Israeli lives; if anything it puts them in more danger (you might understand that one day if you have children of your own). If they aren't being stupid, then, the only other options are either they are acting out a deliberate policy to murder children, or the IDF are composed of homicidal phychopaths.

 

[Mindful]

I always get confused, one minute the Zionist in Israel blame it on the Pals, then the next thread its the PLO, then it Hamas, etc.

Lets admit it Zionist, you want them all gone and to have a Jewish state, which you might as well be Saudi Arabia then, racist, and here you are , living in every other country, but yet you want a Jewish state, its sickening , how racist you are and how you yell anti-emetic every time someone says anything you don't like.

the Jews have got to quit blaming others for their behaviors, as they have been doing it for centuries, you have never got along with anyone, in Russia you tried to overtake the gov. and did, in Germany you tried and failed, and now in Israel you want all the land.

Huh? Who's "you"?

You are the Zionist (jews and non jews ) who want an all Jewish State.

Have't a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Challenger]

Dot Com, C_Clayton_Jones, et al,

"Branding" (as you artistically term it) is a frustration measure.

"Why is it so hard to have a civil discussion in the Israel/Palestine forum?"

Among many other reasons, because those who offer legitimate, appropriate, and factual criticism of Israel are immediately branded 'anti-Semites.'

^ that

blanket insults are the norm if one dares question the current israeli admins policies.

(COMMENT)

Anti-Semitism (prejudice or projection of hatred and discrimination against Jews as an ethnic or religious group) --- often manifests itself as a behavior of opposing Israeli policies, views, or actions that opposes those activities that threaten Israeli sovereignty and security. It is an emotionally charged discussion that requires a bit of personal diplomacy.

Most Respectfully,
R

""Branding" (as you artistically term it) is a frustration measure." Perhaps, but it is also used to inflame or intimidate opponents of Israeli policies and practices (torture, brutality, duplicity, oppression, etc.)

"...often manifests itself as a behavior of opposing Israeli policies, views, or actions that opposes those activities that threaten Israeli sovereignty and security."

Disagree with the word "often" although it can manifest itself amongst far-right or fascist groups who use "anti-Zionism" as a cover for their own anti-Semitic ideologies.

"It is an emotionally charged discussion that requires a bit of personal diplomacy." Agreed.

 

[Roudy]

the seriousness of the topics being discussed? how serious, killing kids for no good reasons, trigger happy iDF;s playing big shots with their rifles and army gear. Sick.

Israeli army kills 14-year old Palestinian with U.S. citizenship

The killing comes eight days after Israeli soldiers killed a 13-year-old boy during a raid on a West Bank village.
“Orwah is the tenth Palestinian child killed by Israeli forces with live ammunition in the occupied West Bank in 2014,” said Brad Parker, attorney and international advocacy officer at Defense for Children International-Palestine. “Impunity is the norm for Israeli soldiers that commit violence against children as they consistently violate their own live-fire regulations and know that they will not be held accountable for their actions no matter what the result. There is no justice or accountability for child victims.” - See more at: Israeli army kills 14-year old Palestinian with U.S. citizenship 8211 Mondoweiss

Don't you mean dual nationality, and the first question any decent human being would ask is what was he doing there after the US had made Palestine a no go area ?

Now I see he is a dually and he was involved in violent clashes and riots, so knew the dangers of attacking Israeli soldiers. So he brought it on himself.

The first question any decent person would ask is why the Zionist Police used live rounds against children when they have a vast arsenal of non-lethal weaponry they could use instead? Nor, for that matter, would any decent person automatically blame the victim before all the facts are made available.

Wow that's a mouthful from someone who supports a people wirh invented name and nationality, and have shown terroristic IslamoNazi tendencies for the last 65 years with a lust for Jewish blood. Does Hamas shoot "live rockets" into Israel? Ha ha ha.

 

[Roudy]

toastman, et al,

I cannot help but think that behind many of the incidents, there is a concerted effort to instigate an anti-Israeli event for media exploitation.

It's not about blaming the victim. It's about asking the question of why do Palestinians continue to throw rocks, Molotov cocktails etc... At soldiers when they know they can get hurt?
People who are not brainwashed know that Palestinians are encouraged to do so in order to provoke a response from the IDF for their propaganda war, swhich BTW they are winning.

v/r
R

Even if that were the case, the pertinent question is why is the IDF so monumentaly stupid as to fall for it every time?

Perhaps it not stupidity but rather a conscious decision to protect Israeli lives at the cost of some media points. On the other hand, Hamas seems more than happy to exchange the lives of those hapless "refugees" for a few media points.
So who, exactly, is acting stupidly and what kind of moron would support Hamas?

I would hope that there isn't one single "moron" on this forum who would ever consider supporting Hamas as a viable political party!

Have you spoken to Tinmore and company?

 

[Roudy]

toastman, et al,

I cannot help but think that behind many of the incidents, there is a concerted effort to instigate an anti-Israeli event for media exploitation.

v/r
R

Even if that were the case, the pertinent question is why is the IDF so monumentaly stupid as to fall for it every time?

Perhaps it not stupidity but rather a conscious decision to protect Israeli lives at the cost of some media points. On the other hand, Hamas seems more than happy to exchange the lives of those hapless "refugees" for a few media points.
So who, exactly, is acting stupidly and what kind of moron would support Hamas?

I would hope that there isn't one single "moron" on this forum who would ever consider supporting Hamas as a viable political party!

Ah, but there's more than one and there's a boatload of 'em in Gaza which is, after all, what we are talking about.

And there's a boatload of extremists in Israel... It's what we are talking about isn't it?

You see, there will always be two sides, "morons" or not, who will, over time, actually prove themselves "morons"...

What kind of "moron" would support Zionism?

Can you see the difference?

Politics vs Religion....

While trying to hide your Jew hate, you should first learn what Zionism means.

Anti Zionism is the new anti semtism, as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Put it well in 1968.

 

[Humanity]

Even if that were the case, the pertinent question is why is the IDF so monumentaly stupid as to fall for it every time?

Perhaps it not stupidity but rather a conscious decision to protect Israeli lives at the cost of some media points. On the other hand, Hamas seems more than happy to exchange the lives of those hapless "refugees" for a few media points.
So who, exactly, is acting stupidly and what kind of moron would support Hamas?

I would hope that there isn't one single "moron" on this forum who would ever consider supporting Hamas as a viable political party!

Ah, but there's more than one and there's a boatload of 'em in Gaza which is, after all, what we are talking about.

And there's a boatload of extremists in Israel... It's what we are talking about isn't it?

You see, there will always be two sides, "morons" or not, who will, over time, actually prove themselves "morons"...

What kind of "moron" would support Zionism?

Can you see the difference?

Politics vs Religion....

While trying to hide your Jew hate, you should first learn what Zionism means.

Anti Zionism is the new anti semtism, as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Put it well in 1968.

Are you trying to tell me that Zionism ISN'T a political organisation?

 

[Lipush]

Zionism is an ideology.

Anti-Zionism, though, may just be a political organization.

 

[Roudy]

It's always the Zionists - they're violent bastards.

I know, the Muslims and especially Palestinians are such peaceful tolerant people, no?

 

[Roudy]

Perhaps it not stupidity but rather a conscious decision to protect Israeli lives at the cost of some media points. On the other hand, Hamas seems more than happy to exchange the lives of those hapless "refugees" for a few media points.
So who, exactly, is acting stupidly and what kind of moron would support Hamas?

I would hope that there isn't one single "moron" on this forum who would ever consider supporting Hamas as a viable political party!

Ah, but there's more than one and there's a boatload of 'em in Gaza which is, after all, what we are talking about.

And there's a boatload of extremists in Israel... It's what we are talking about isn't it?

You see, there will always be two sides, "morons" or not, who will, over time, actually prove themselves "morons"...

What kind of "moron" would support Zionism?

Can you see the difference?

Politics vs Religion....

While trying to hide your Jew hate, you should first learn what Zionism means.

Anti Zionism is the new anti semtism, as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Put it well in 1968.

Are you trying to tell me that Zionism ISN'T a political organisation?

An anti Zionist is a person who is against the concept of the Jewish people having their own Jewish state. If that is you, then you're an anti semite.

 

[Humanity]

Zionism is an ideology.

Anti-Zionism, though, may just be a political organization.

Zionism is a political, ideological, nationalistic organisation...

I'm not sure that you can call Anti Zionism a political organisation, I certainly don't belong to any political organisations.

Yes, agreed there are 'political organisations' around the world who are against Zionism. Likewise there are 'political organisations' around the world that support Zionism.

 

[Roudy]

Zionism is an ideology.

Anti-Zionism, though, may just be a political organization.

Zionism is a political, ideological, nationalistic organisation...

I'm not sure that you can call Anti Zionism a political organisation, I certainly don't belong to any political organisations.

Yes, agreed there are 'political organisations' around the world who are against Zionism. Likewise there are 'political organisations' around the world that support Zionism.

Can you provide us with your idea of what the definition of Zionism is?

 

[Phoenall]

As soon as they come out with Zionists, baby killers, war crimes, land thefts, illegal settlements and invasion you can take it as a given that they are not offering legitimate, appropriate and factual criticism just NAZI WHITE SUPREMACIST ANTI SEMITIC JEW HATRED

Say something nice!

I command you!

Compared to your posts that is extremely nice

 

[Phoenall]

toastman, et al,

I cannot help but think that behind many of the incidents, there is a concerted effort to instigate an anti-Israeli event for media exploitation.

v/r
R

Even if that were the case, the pertinent question is why is the IDF so monumentaly stupid as to fall for it every time?

Perhaps it not stupidity but rather a conscious decision to protect Israeli lives at the cost of some media points. On the other hand, Hamas seems more than happy to exchange the lives of those hapless "refugees" for a few media points.
So who, exactly, is acting stupidly and what kind of moron would support Hamas?

I would hope that there isn't one single "moron" on this forum who would ever consider supporting Hamas as a viable political party!

Ah, but there's more than one and there's a boatload of 'em in Gaza which is, after all, what we are talking about.

And there's a boatload of extremists in Israel... It's what we are talking about isn't it?

You see, there will always be two sides, "morons" or not, who will, over time, actually prove themselves "morons"...

What kind of "moron" would support Zionism?

Can you see the difference?

Politics vs Religion....

Most of the civilised world support the NATIONAL HOME FOR THE JEWS and the ABILITY TO DEFEND IT FROM VIOLENCE AND TERRORISM. It is only the muslims that don't, and they are the ones being defended against.

 

[Lipush]

Zionism is an ideology.

Anti-Zionism, though, may just be a political organization.

Zionism is a political, ideological, nationalistic organisation...

I'm not sure that you can call Anti Zionism a political organisation, I certainly don't belong to any political organisations.

Yes, agreed there are 'political organisations' around the world who are against Zionism. Likewise there are 'political organisations' around the world that support Zionism.

Can you provide us with your idea of what the definition of Zionism is?

Ohh. Ohhhhh! quiz time!

 

[Phoenall]

Zionism is an ideology.

Anti-Zionism, though, may just be a political organization.

Zionism is a political, ideological, nationalistic organisation...

I'm not sure that you can call Anti Zionism a political organisation, I certainly don't belong to any political organisations.

Yes, agreed there are 'political organisations' around the world who are against Zionism. Likewise there are 'political organisations' around the world that support Zionism.

Not according to the non muslims, who see Zionism as nothing more than the resurrection of THE NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS IN PALESTINE AND THE JEWS RIGHT TO DEFEND IT AGAINST VIOLENCE AND TERRORISM

 

[Roudy]

Zionism is an ideology.

Anti-Zionism, though, may just be a political organization.

Zionism is a political, ideological, nationalistic organisation...

I'm not sure that you can call Anti Zionism a political organisation, I certainly don't belong to any political organisations.

Yes, agreed there are 'political organisations' around the world who are against Zionism. Likewise there are 'political organisations' around the world that support Zionism.

Can you provide us with your idea of what the definition of Zionism is?

Ohh. Ohhhhh! quiz time!

Can't hold my breath any longer.

Most of these anti Semites don't even know what Zionism actually means. They heard something during a Neo Nazi or IslmoNazi rally and they think that's what it is.

 

[Darkwind]

I guess it goes without saying this is the most volatile forum at USMB? I don't think I've seen one thread where a shouting match didn't occur at some point. There is so much vitriol, one would think you'd have an "Enter at your own risk" sign on the first webpage before entering. I'm wondering why a lack of civility is so prevalent? And yes, I know, I'm one of the biggest violators of that. If there was a "Biggest Prick in the Forum" contest, I would probably make the meddle round.

If you were going to name whom (or what) is responsible for the consistently deteriorating discord, who (or what) would it be?

the Zionists?
the anti-Zionists?
the Americans?
the Israeli's?
the Muslims?
the Jews?
the pro-Palestine crowd?
the pro-Israeli crowd?
human nature?
the seriousness of the topics being discussed?​

If you had to put your finger on one thing that is preventing issues in this forum from being discussed in a civil, respectful manner, without all the emotional outbursts and name-calling, what would it be?

​

You left one off of your list.


You.

You are the reason that this forum cannot discuss the abhorrent behavior of the Palestinians.

 

[Humanity]

I would hope that there isn't one single "moron" on this forum who would ever consider supporting Hamas as a viable political party!

Ah, but there's more than one and there's a boatload of 'em in Gaza which is, after all, what we are talking about.

And there's a boatload of extremists in Israel... It's what we are talking about isn't it?

You see, there will always be two sides, "morons" or not, who will, over time, actually prove themselves "morons"...

What kind of "moron" would support Zionism?

Can you see the difference?

Politics vs Religion....

While trying to hide your Jew hate, you should first learn what Zionism means.

Anti Zionism is the new anti semtism, as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Put it well in 1968.

Are you trying to tell me that Zionism ISN'T a political organisation?

An anti Zionist is a person who is against the concept of the Jewish people having their own Jewish state. If that is you, then you're an anti semite.

And you suggested that I should learn what Zionism means!?

To clear a few things up....

Your abuse of the word "Antisemite" is something that Israel supporters us consistently in an attempt to quieten those who question Israel, quieten decisions made by Israel through 'guilt'. Because the word has become so much the 'final put down' of those who dare to question Israel it has lost all value.

I believe that "antisemitism' was 'invented' in Germany in the late 1800's meaning "Jew Hatred"...

To be antisemitic I would have to be against a whole host of other people including Arabs and even the Maltese!

Antisemitic is NOT exclusively against Jews...

Are Jews allowed to have free thought? I believe they are.

You see, not all Jews are Zionist. Not all Jews support the politics of Zionism.

I HOPE SO!

And this is why Anti Zionism is so NOT "Jew hating"... I simply do not like the extreme views of Zionism and the way that the Zionist movement in Israel behaves.

Am I a hater of Jews? NO!
Am I antisemitic? NO!
am I antizionist? YES!

You and your like who like to abuse the 'antisemite' card do yourselves no favours! You have weakened the strength of the word, you have made people immune to the 'accusation'.