Why Muslims See the Crusades So Differently from Christians

[Picaro]

lets not forget-----that you are very confused. When the jews were expelled from
Spain (1492) the RECONQUISTA of Spain by the Christians had already happened. THE MUSLIMS WERE GONE FROM THE IBERIAN PENNINSULA by then---------Learn some real history------FEEL FREE TO ASK QUESTIONS. Please do not give up------you have potential

You're quite right, I was off by a number of months, but my point is still valid:

The Spanish Jews who chose to leave Spain instead of converting, dispersed throughout the region of North Africa known as the Maghreb. In those regions, they often intermingled with the already existing Mizrahi Arabic or Berber speaking communities, becoming the ancestors of the Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian and Libyan Jewish communities.

Many Spanish Jews also fled to the Ottoman Empire, where they were given refuge. Sultan Bayezid II of the Ottoman Empire, learning about the expulsion of Jews from Spain, dispatched the Ottoman Navy to bring the Jews safely to Ottoman lands, mainly to the cities of Thessaloniki (currently in Greece) and İzmir (currently in Turkey).[14] Many of these Jews also settled in other parts of the Balkans ruled by the Ottomans such as the areas that are now Bulgaria, Serbia and Bosnia. Bayezid II was alleged to have quoted that: "Those who say that Ferdinand and Isabella are wise are indeed fools; for he gives me, his enemy, his national treasure, the Jews."​

So why isn't Turkey a great destination for immigrants seeking 'tolerance' and 'justice'? Come to think of it, when was it ever such a place? lol never. They liked Jews because of their trade networks, that's it. They remained segregated in their own ghettoes, both by choice and status, just as the majority did everywhere else.

 

[Weatherman2020]

It’s often said that winners dictate history. Not so for the medieval holy wars called the Crusades.

Muslim forces ultimately expelled the European Christians who invaded the eastern Mediterranean repeatedly in the 12th and 13th centuries—and thwarted their effort to regain control of sacred Holy Land sites such as Jerusalem. Still, most histories of the Crusades offer a largely one-sided view, drawn originally from European medieval chronicles, then filtered through 18th and 19th-century Western scholars.

But how did Muslims at the time view the invasions? (Not always so contentiously, it turns out.) And what did they think of the European interlopers? (One common cliché: “unwashed barbarians.”) For a nuanced view of the medieval Muslim world, HISTORY talked with two prominent scholars: Paul M. Cobb, professor of Islamic History at the University of Pennsylvania, author of Race for Paradise: An Islamic History of the Crusades, and Suleiman A. Mourad, a professor of religion at Smith College and author of The Mosaic of Islam.

HISTORY: Broadly speaking, how do Islamic perspectives on the Crusades differ from those of the Christian sources from Western Europe?
Suleiman Mourad: If we wrote the history of the Crusades based on Islamic narratives, it would be a completely different story altogether. There were no doubt wars and bloodshed, but that wasn’t the only or dominant story. There was also coexistence, political compromise, trade, scientific exchange, love. We have poetry and chronicles with evidence of mixed marriages.

Why Muslims See the Crusades So Differently from Christians

This is an interesting read--as long as you can deal with short paragraph answers and keep your yabuts at bay.

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

 

[irosie91]

lets not forget-----that you are very confused. When the jews were expelled from
Spain (1492) the RECONQUISTA of Spain by the Christians had already happened. THE MUSLIMS WERE GONE FROM THE IBERIAN PENNINSULA by then---------Learn some real history------FEEL FREE TO ASK QUESTIONS. Please do not give up------you have potential

You're quite right, I was off by a number of months, but my point is still valid:

The Spanish Jews who chose to leave Spain instead of converting, dispersed throughout the region of North Africa known as the Maghreb. In those regions, they often intermingled with the already existing Mizrahi Arabic or Berber speaking communities, becoming the ancestors of the Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian and Libyan Jewish communities.

Many Spanish Jews also fled to the Ottoman Empire, where they were given refuge. Sultan Bayezid II of the Ottoman Empire, learning about the expulsion of Jews from Spain, dispatched the Ottoman Navy to bring the Jews safely to Ottoman lands, mainly to the cities of Thessaloniki (currently in Greece) and İzmir (currently in Turkey).[14] Many of these Jews also settled in other parts of the Balkans ruled by the Ottomans such as the areas that are now Bulgaria, Serbia and Bosnia. Bayezid II was alleged to have quoted that: "Those who say that Ferdinand and Isabella are wise are indeed fools; for he gives me, his enemy, his national treasure, the Jews."​

So why isn't Turkey a great destination for immigrants seeking 'tolerance' and 'justice'? Come to think of it, when was it ever such a place? lol never. They liked Jews because of their trade networks, that's it. They remained segregated in their own ghettoes, both by choice and status, just as the majority did everywhere else.

I have relatives from communities who lived in Turkey since their flight
from the Spanish Inquisition-----feel free to ask questions (uhm---migrated to
Israel in the 1930s-----but still are TURKS (by cuisine)

 

[alang1216]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

 

[irosie91]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

not necessarily -------what are you calling "there"? Turkey?

 

[Weatherman2020]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

The OP made it sound like Muslims were just sitting around minding their own business when they were invaded by Europeans for no good reason.

 

[alang1216]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

not necessarily -------what are you calling "there"? Turkey?

No, Jerusalem and Israel/Palestine. But it was probably also the case for Turkey but I'm not as familiar with the history there.

 

[irosie91]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

The OP made it sound like Muslims were just sitting around minding their own business when they were invaded by Europeans for no good reason.

try to understand the muslim perspective---------the issue is RIGHT vs WRONG.
In the Islamic version of HISTORY, SOCIAL JUSTICE and JURISPRUDENCE
there is a single unifying concept. SIMPLE -----ISLAM/muslim -- RIGHT vs
Non muslim-- WRONG. A good example is Islamic jurisprudence------
in a muslim "court of law" (justice) the testimony of a non-muslim cannot
contradict that of a muslim

 

[alang1216]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

The OP made it sound like Muslims were just sitting around minding their own business when they were invaded by Europeans for no good reason.

Muslims controlled Palestine for 400 years before the Crusaders arrived. How long do you have to live in an area before you can claim it as your own?

 

[irosie91]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

not necessarily -------what are you calling "there"? Turkey?

No, Jerusalem and Israel/Palestine. But it was probably also the case for Turkey but I'm not as familiar with the history there.

oh------some people simply peacefully MIGRATED to that which is today called
Jerusalem and Israel and Palestine. According to the only history available of
"ISRAEL" ie Jacob----he migrated with his retainers to the desert area of
BEERSHEVA without any struggle at all------which makes sense since who would
want that desert ? I do not recall any issues of CONQUEST of land by
Abraham either------he obtained Hebron by Purchase. I believe that Bedouins
that migrated FROM THE DESERTS OF SAUDI Arabia to SINAI----probably just
took a long walk with their sheep, The INUITS of Alaska probably also just
MOVED IN peacefully

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The urban muslims viewed the unwashed hoards of Crusaders in much the same way as the people of western europe viewed the Viking raiders.

Basically, as murdering barbarians who had come to rape and pillage the land, and the average muslim citizen was terrified of them. ....

Dhimmis Minimalizing

The bravery and sacrifice of the Christian warriors delayed the Nazislami jihad for 200 years, buying time for Europe to finally recover from the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Postmodern disrespect for that achievement indicates that the West is collapsing again.

 

[irosie91]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

The OP made it sound like Muslims were just sitting around minding their own business when they were invaded by Europeans for no good reason.

Muslims controlled Palestine for 400 years before the Crusaders arrived. How long do you have to live in an area before you can claim it as your own?

good question----how long? You want to start the ESTIMATE GAME? btw---
even during the time of muslim "control" of Palestine------jews continued to LIVE
there-----so did Christians. Do you imagine that the Brits OWN INDIA? The FRENCH OWN------Algeria and Beirut?

 

[alang1216]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

not necessarily -------what are you calling "there"? Turkey?

No, Jerusalem and Israel/Palestine. But it was probably also the case for Turkey but I'm not as familiar with the history there.

oh------some people simply peacefully MIGRATED to that which is today called
Jerusalem and Israel and Palestine. According to the only history available of
"ISRAEL" ie Jacob----he migrated with his retainers to the desert area of
BEERSHEVA without any struggle at all------which makes sense since who would
want that desert ? I do not recall any issues of CONQUEST of land by
Abraham either------he obtained Hebron by Purchase. I believe that Bedouins
that migrated FROM THE DESERTS OF SAUDI Arabia to SINAI----probably just
took a long walk with their sheep, The INUITS of Alaska probably also just
MOVED IN peacefully

I don't dispute any of what you say, still I can move my family to China, buy a house and live there for years but I'll never be Chinese.

 

[irosie91]

The urban muslims viewed the unwashed hoards of Crusaders in much the same way as the people of western europe viewed the Viking raiders.

Basically, as murdering barbarians who had come to rape and pillage the land, and the average muslim citizen was terrified of them. ....

Dhimmis Minimalizing

The bravery and sacrifice of the Christian warriors delayed the Nazislami jihad for 200 years, buying time for Europe to finally recover from the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Modern disrespect for that achievement indicates that the West is collapsing again.

if there is anyone "UNWASHED" it is the Bedouin muslims of "palestina" ----
even today the big time sickness afflicting Bedouin muslims in that area is
PEMPHIGUS. The sicknesses that afflict muslim populations thruout the
Middle east and Southeast asia----are the waterborne fecal oral things like
Cholera, shistosomiasis, polio etc.

 

[alang1216]

good question----how long? You want to start the ESTIMATE GAME? btw---
even during the time of muslim "control" of Palestine------jews continued to LIVE
there-----so did Christians. Do you imagine that the Brits OWN INDIA? The FRENCH OWN------Algeria and Beirut?

It is a good question and one I don't have an answer for.

 

[irosie91]

You forgot to mention how Muslims even got there in the first place - conquest.

Everyone who lived there in the last 5,000 years got there by conquest of those already there.

not necessarily -------what are you calling "there"? Turkey?

No, Jerusalem and Israel/Palestine. But it was probably also the case for Turkey but I'm not as familiar with the history there.

oh------some people simply peacefully MIGRATED to that which is today called
Jerusalem and Israel and Palestine. According to the only history available of
"ISRAEL" ie Jacob----he migrated with his retainers to the desert area of
BEERSHEVA without any struggle at all------which makes sense since who would
want that desert ? I do not recall any issues of CONQUEST of land by
Abraham either------he obtained Hebron by Purchase. I believe that Bedouins
that migrated FROM THE DESERTS OF SAUDI Arabia to SINAI----probably just
took a long walk with their sheep, The INUITS of Alaska probably also just
MOVED IN peacefully

I don't dispute any of what you say, still I can move my family to China, buy a house and live there for years but I'll never be Chinese.

ok what is your point? today's Arabic speaking people living in
Egypt have nothing to do with the guys who wrote in hieroglyphics and
made MUMMIES ------not culturally, not by religion, not linguistically ----
not NOTHIN. why are they called "EGYPTIANS"?. Today's
Pakistanis---------are what they are-------PAKISTANIS-----a very new culture

 

[Weatherman2020]

 

[Sunni Man]

And?? .....

 

[irosie91]

And?? .....

and... nothing. The Greeks did it, The Romans did it, The
Brits did it, LOTS OF PEOPLE did it--------the minions of Genghis
Khan did It the MOST BLOODY-----for the honor of allah and his rapist
buddy. In the Americas-------both the incas and the Aztecs did it

 

[alang1216]

View attachment 166828

Nice. Are you going to show a map of conquest battles fought by European Christians?