Why not change the immigration laws if you don't like them?

[Timmy]

Another thread that starts off with a false premise.

No one wants NO immigration laws , or totally open borders .

Everyone agrees that the current system is not good.

 

[JakeStarkey]

the far and alt right and the uber-anarchists do not want a sensible plan.

They want to pull the country down completely.

 

[Coyote]

if the people don't want the immigration laws enforced then why did they bother to create them in the first place? It just seems like we have all became slightly detached from democracy if we think that the executive branch is the sole decision maker on what the rules are going to be in this country. The left is pissed off that Trump dares to enforce the laws that the democratic branch of our government created with the consent of the people they represent. How can you be pissed off at Trump for enforcing what is already there and why haven't these same people simply just work to change the immigration laws if they don't like them? I suspect that that route would be beyond their comprehension since it would require getting popular opinion and approval of the people. It is just much easier to bitch at the guy that is enforcing the laws as if he was the only guy who is responsible for their creation. It just seems like to me that they act as if Trump created these immigration laws a few months ago when he got elected.

We've been trying to...you know, comprehensive immigration reform...but partisan bickering gets in the way.

"comprehensive immigration reform" pretty much means amnesty. Sound bites is all it is.

Means more then that.

I don't support a wall. I think it's a stupid waste of money and will cause more problems then it would solve. I support immigration reform at both ends:

• increased border security and use of modern technology to do that - drones for example
  
• more rapid deportation of those convicted of violent crimes
• a path to citizenship for those who came over as children, and have been good citizens
• some form of amnesty for those who have been good citizens - served in the military, etc
• increasing the number of work visas we give out to encourage legal, temporary immigration for those who do jobs that, truly - Americans won't do
• instead of putting all that money into the frigging wall - put it into modernizing the technology and efficiency of the agencies involved in immigration to speed up the legal bottleneck and also to keep track of people coming in on visas and temporary work permits.

That's comprehensive.

 

[JakeStarkey]

if the people don't want the immigration laws enforced then why did they bother to create them in the first place? It just seems like we have all became slightly detached from democracy if we think that the executive branch is the sole decision maker on what the rules are going to be in this country. The left is pissed off that Trump dares to enforce the laws that the democratic branch of our government created with the consent of the people they represent. How can you be pissed off at Trump for enforcing what is already there and why haven't these same people simply just work to change the immigration laws if they don't like them? I suspect that that route would be beyond their comprehension since it would require getting popular opinion and approval of the people. It is just much easier to bitch at the guy that is enforcing the laws as if he was the only guy who is responsible for their creation. It just seems like to me that they act as if Trump created these immigration laws a few months ago when he got elected.

They don't dare change them to what they prefer because they know the American people would immediately eject them from office.

That is my point exactly. Most people want immigration laws which is why no one has ever suggested completely repealing them. The question I wonder is why is it there is a group of people who are determined to go around this process whenever they realize it won't work for them?

Obviously they don't give a shit about what the American people want. The are all tyrants at heart who would ram their agenda down the throats of an unwilling citizenry.

who are you to tell us just what the American people want?

The American people have made their wishes known every time the Congress tried to pass a so-called "comprehensive immigration" bill.

No, the "American people' have done no such thing. Only perhaps 15% of the country agree with those who wish to pull the country down, which is your desire.

 

[bripat9643]

They don't dare change them to what they prefer because they know the American people would immediately eject them from office.

That is my point exactly. Most people want immigration laws which is why no one has ever suggested completely repealing them. The question I wonder is why is it there is a group of people who are determined to go around this process whenever they realize it won't work for them?

Obviously they don't give a shit about what the American people want. The are all tyrants at heart who would ram their agenda down the throats of an unwilling citizenry.

who are you to tell us just what the American people want?

The American people have made their wishes known every time the Congress tried to pass a so-called "comprehensive immigration" bill.

No, the "American people' have done no such thing. Only perhaps 15% of the country agree with those who wish to pull the country down, which is your desire.

How is refusing to pass amnesty "pulling the country down?"

BTW, a clear majority oppose amnesty for illegals.

 

[Votto]

if the people don't want the immigration laws enforced then why did they bother to create them in the first place? It just seems like we have all became slightly detached from democracy if we think that the executive branch is the sole decision maker on what the rules are going to be in this country. The left is pissed off that Trump dares to enforce the laws that the democratic branch of our government created with the consent of the people they represent. How can you be pissed off at Trump for enforcing what is already there and why haven't these same people simply just work to change the immigration laws if they don't like them? I suspect that that route would be beyond their comprehension since it would require getting popular opinion and approval of the people. It is just much easier to bitch at the guy that is enforcing the laws as if he was the only guy who is responsible for their creation. It just seems like to me that they act as if Trump created these immigration laws a few months ago when he got elected.

it's all about cheap labor. You make illegals legal and then the price of labor goes up as do the prices at the stores.

Both parties like it this way, even though they say otherwise.

Since slavery is illegal it's the next best thing.

Sure, it costs billions a year on the welfare system but that is all monopoly money anyway.

No one cares about the deficits or massive debt. It's not like they ever plan to pay it off anyway.

 

[SuperDemocrat]

Another thread that starts off with a false premise.

No one wants NO immigration laws , or totally open borders .

Everyone agrees that the current system is not good.

How is it false? No one to my knowledge has ever proposed changing the laws and the people who don't want the immigration laws enforced really don't want immigration laws in the first place and this is there way of accomplishing that goal. I would think that people who vote in the democratic party would actually understand the meaning of it's root...democracy.

 

[Coyote]

Another thread that starts off with a false premise.

No one wants NO immigration laws , or totally open borders .

Everyone agrees that the current system is not good.

How is it false? No one to my knowledge has ever proposed changing the laws and the people who don't want the immigration laws enforced really don't want immigration laws in the first place and this is there way of accomplishing that goal. I would think that people who vote in the democratic party would actually understand the meaning of it's root...democracy.

It's false because no one is calling for NO immigration laws.

 

[TNHarley]

if the people don't want the immigration laws enforced then why did they bother to create them in the first place? It just seems like we have all became slightly detached from democracy if we think that the executive branch is the sole decision maker on what the rules are going to be in this country. The left is pissed off that Trump dares to enforce the laws that the democratic branch of our government created with the consent of the people they represent. How can you be pissed off at Trump for enforcing what is already there and why haven't these same people simply just work to change the immigration laws if they don't like them? I suspect that that route would be beyond their comprehension since it would require getting popular opinion and approval of the people. It is just much easier to bitch at the guy that is enforcing the laws as if he was the only guy who is responsible for their creation. It just seems like to me that they act as if Trump created these immigration laws a few months ago when he got elected.

We've been trying to...you know, comprehensive immigration reform...but partisan bickering gets in the way.

"comprehensive immigration reform" pretty much means amnesty. Sound bites is all it is.

Means more then that.

I don't support a wall. I think it's a stupid waste of money and will cause more problems then it would solve. I support immigration reform at both ends:

• increased border security and use of modern technology to do that - drones for example
  
• more rapid deportation of those convicted of violent crimes
• a path to citizenship for those who came over as children, and have been good citizens
• some form of amnesty for those who have been good citizens - served in the military, etc
• increasing the number of work visas we give out to encourage legal, temporary immigration for those who do jobs that, truly - Americans won't do
• instead of putting all that money into the frigging wall - put it into modernizing the technology and efficiency of the agencies involved in immigration to speed up the legal bottleneck and also to keep track of people coming in on visas and temporary work permits.

That's comprehensive.

ICE agents.
Amnesty incites more illegals. That would be considered a failure by just about any definition.
Im not into the wall either, really. But if its all i can get...
If we took away all their incentives by fining employers, require everify for renting and buying, no more schooling (that's was a terrible judgement and it would be EASY to come up with reasons why it should be looked at again) things like that, we wouldn't need a wall or technology because they wouldn't come at all. They will leave/stay where they are from if all they are doing is starving, sleeping in the streets and their children are dumb.
Im not into work VISAs right now. I put Americans first. We have around 10M able bodied people not in the workforce. And a kinda high unemployment. Especially in some areas. But maybe one day.

 

[TNHarley]

Another thread that starts off with a false premise.

No one wants NO immigration laws , or totally open borders .

Everyone agrees that the current system is not good.

How do we know? We don't enforce the damn thing.

 

[TNHarley]

the far and alt right and the uber-anarchists do not want a sensible plan.

They want to pull the country down completely.

Failure IS pulling the country down, fakey. Why are you so afraid of facts and the concept of a Nation?

 

[SuperDemocrat]

Another thread that starts off with a false premise.

No one wants NO immigration laws , or totally open borders .

Everyone agrees that the current system is not good.

How is it false? No one to my knowledge has ever proposed changing the laws and the people who don't want the immigration laws enforced really don't want immigration laws in the first place and this is there way of accomplishing that goal. I would think that people who vote in the democratic party would actually understand the meaning of it's root...democracy.

It's false because no one is calling for NO immigration laws.

Those who work hard to not have the law enforced are really making immigration laws unenforcable thus having no immigration laws in affect. When a lot of states refused to cooperate with Obamacare I supported that because I really didn't want this law in the first place.

Did you just read the first sentence of the last post?

 

[Coyote]

if the people don't want the immigration laws enforced then why did they bother to create them in the first place? It just seems like we have all became slightly detached from democracy if we think that the executive branch is the sole decision maker on what the rules are going to be in this country. The left is pissed off that Trump dares to enforce the laws that the democratic branch of our government created with the consent of the people they represent. How can you be pissed off at Trump for enforcing what is already there and why haven't these same people simply just work to change the immigration laws if they don't like them? I suspect that that route would be beyond their comprehension since it would require getting popular opinion and approval of the people. It is just much easier to bitch at the guy that is enforcing the laws as if he was the only guy who is responsible for their creation. It just seems like to me that they act as if Trump created these immigration laws a few months ago when he got elected.

We've been trying to...you know, comprehensive immigration reform...but partisan bickering gets in the way.

"comprehensive immigration reform" pretty much means amnesty. Sound bites is all it is.

Means more then that.

I don't support a wall. I think it's a stupid waste of money and will cause more problems then it would solve. I support immigration reform at both ends:

• increased border security and use of modern technology to do that - drones for example
  
• more rapid deportation of those convicted of violent crimes
• a path to citizenship for those who came over as children, and have been good citizens
• some form of amnesty for those who have been good citizens - served in the military, etc
• increasing the number of work visas we give out to encourage legal, temporary immigration for those who do jobs that, truly - Americans won't do
• instead of putting all that money into the frigging wall - put it into modernizing the technology and efficiency of the agencies involved in immigration to speed up the legal bottleneck and also to keep track of people coming in on visas and temporary work permits.

That's comprehensive.

ICE agents.
Amnesty incites more illegals. That would be considered a failure by just about any definition.
Im not into the wall either, really. But if its all i can get...
If we took away all their incentives by fining employers, require everify for renting and buying, no more schooling (that's was a terrible judgement and it would be EASY to come up with reasons why it should be looked at again) things like that, we wouldn't need a wall or technology because they wouldn't come at all. They will leave/stay where they are from if all they are doing is starving, sleeping in the streets and their children are dumb.
Im not into work VISAs right now. I put Americans first. We have around 10M able bodied people not in the workforce. And a kinda high unemployment. Especially in some areas. But maybe one day.

I disagree with education - the kids had no say in what their parents did, and frankly - a large uneducated populace is bad for us overall.

 

[Coyote]

Another thread that starts off with a false premise.

No one wants NO immigration laws , or totally open borders .

Everyone agrees that the current system is not good.

How is it false? No one to my knowledge has ever proposed changing the laws and the people who don't want the immigration laws enforced really don't want immigration laws in the first place and this is there way of accomplishing that goal. I would think that people who vote in the democratic party would actually understand the meaning of it's root...democracy.

It's false because no one is calling for NO immigration laws.

Those who work hard to not have the law enforced are really making immigration laws unenforcable thus having no immigration laws in affect. When a lot of states refused to cooperate with Obamacare I supported that because I really didn't want this law in the first place.

Did you just read the first sentence of the last post?

That's false.

All laws are prioritized in enforcement. We don't have the money or manpower to do everything. That means rapists receive priority over jaywalkers and litterbugs. That means that when it comes to illegal immigration - violent offenders should be prioritized. I haven't seen anyone saying that no immigration laws should be enforced.

 

[TNHarley]

if the people don't want the immigration laws enforced then why did they bother to create them in the first place? It just seems like we have all became slightly detached from democracy if we think that the executive branch is the sole decision maker on what the rules are going to be in this country. The left is pissed off that Trump dares to enforce the laws that the democratic branch of our government created with the consent of the people they represent. How can you be pissed off at Trump for enforcing what is already there and why haven't these same people simply just work to change the immigration laws if they don't like them? I suspect that that route would be beyond their comprehension since it would require getting popular opinion and approval of the people. It is just much easier to bitch at the guy that is enforcing the laws as if he was the only guy who is responsible for their creation. It just seems like to me that they act as if Trump created these immigration laws a few months ago when he got elected.

We've been trying to...you know, comprehensive immigration reform...but partisan bickering gets in the way.

"comprehensive immigration reform" pretty much means amnesty. Sound bites is all it is.

Means more then that.

I don't support a wall. I think it's a stupid waste of money and will cause more problems then it would solve. I support immigration reform at both ends:

• increased border security and use of modern technology to do that - drones for example
  
• more rapid deportation of those convicted of violent crimes
• a path to citizenship for those who came over as children, and have been good citizens
• some form of amnesty for those who have been good citizens - served in the military, etc
• increasing the number of work visas we give out to encourage legal, temporary immigration for those who do jobs that, truly - Americans won't do
• instead of putting all that money into the frigging wall - put it into modernizing the technology and efficiency of the agencies involved in immigration to speed up the legal bottleneck and also to keep track of people coming in on visas and temporary work permits.

That's comprehensive.

ICE agents.
Amnesty incites more illegals. That would be considered a failure by just about any definition.
Im not into the wall either, really. But if its all i can get...
If we took away all their incentives by fining employers, require everify for renting and buying, no more schooling (that's was a terrible judgement and it would be EASY to come up with reasons why it should be looked at again) things like that, we wouldn't need a wall or technology because they wouldn't come at all. They will leave/stay where they are from if all they are doing is starving, sleeping in the streets and their children are dumb.
Im not into work VISAs right now. I put Americans first. We have around 10M able bodied people not in the workforce. And a kinda high unemployment. Especially in some areas. But maybe one day.

I disagree with education - the kids had no say in what their parents did, and frankly - a large uneducated populace is bad for us overall.

Its not our populace. They are illegal aliens.
Again, the reason they come is incentive. If you want the border fixed, why continue with the main cause? Its completely contradictory. That's why i laugh at all these people that want to "fix it". Bullshit.

 

[SuperDemocrat]

Another thread that starts off with a false premise.

No one wants NO immigration laws , or totally open borders .

Everyone agrees that the current system is not good.

How is it false? No one to my knowledge has ever proposed changing the laws and the people who don't want the immigration laws enforced really don't want immigration laws in the first place and this is there way of accomplishing that goal. I would think that people who vote in the democratic party would actually understand the meaning of it's root...democracy.

It's false because no one is calling for NO immigration laws.

Those who work hard to not have the law enforced are really making immigration laws unenforcable thus having no immigration laws in affect. When a lot of states refused to cooperate with Obamacare I supported that because I really didn't want this law in the first place.

Did you just read the first sentence of the last post?

That's false.

All laws are prioritized in enforcement. We don't have the money or manpower to do everything. That means rapists receive priority over jaywalkers and litterbugs. That means that when it comes to illegal immigration - violent offenders should be prioritized. I haven't seen anyone saying that no immigration laws should be enforced.

True BUT I don't know of anyone who seriously protest the arrest of jaywalkers and litterbugs unless they actually don't think the law should exist in the first place. That is the only reason I think someone would protest any arrest of litterbugs, jaywalkers, and illegal residents of our country.

 

[Tumblin Tumbleweed]

SD, the majority of Americans do not want a round up and mass deportation.

They want a pathway to normalization, at the very least, and the removal of criminal illegals to their home country and the imprisonment of those who hurt illegals.

Amnesty is failure. You support failure, fakey. How does that make you feel?

What makes amnesty a failure?

It's an admission that you refuse to enforce the law.

You dont make any sense

Makes perfect sense to me. Weird.

 

[Coyote]

We've been trying to...you know, comprehensive immigration reform...but partisan bickering gets in the way.

"comprehensive immigration reform" pretty much means amnesty. Sound bites is all it is.

Means more then that.

I don't support a wall. I think it's a stupid waste of money and will cause more problems then it would solve. I support immigration reform at both ends:

• increased border security and use of modern technology to do that - drones for example
  
• more rapid deportation of those convicted of violent crimes
• a path to citizenship for those who came over as children, and have been good citizens
• some form of amnesty for those who have been good citizens - served in the military, etc
• increasing the number of work visas we give out to encourage legal, temporary immigration for those who do jobs that, truly - Americans won't do
• instead of putting all that money into the frigging wall - put it into modernizing the technology and efficiency of the agencies involved in immigration to speed up the legal bottleneck and also to keep track of people coming in on visas and temporary work permits.

That's comprehensive.

ICE agents.
Amnesty incites more illegals. That would be considered a failure by just about any definition.
Im not into the wall either, really. But if its all i can get...
If we took away all their incentives by fining employers, require everify for renting and buying, no more schooling (that's was a terrible judgement and it would be EASY to come up with reasons why it should be looked at again) things like that, we wouldn't need a wall or technology because they wouldn't come at all. They will leave/stay where they are from if all they are doing is starving, sleeping in the streets and their children are dumb.
Im not into work VISAs right now. I put Americans first. We have around 10M able bodied people not in the workforce. And a kinda high unemployment. Especially in some areas. But maybe one day.

I disagree with education - the kids had no say in what their parents did, and frankly - a large uneducated populace is bad for us overall.

Its not our populace. They are illegal aliens.
Again, the reason they come is incentive. If you want the border fixed, why continue with the main cause? Its completely contradictory. That's why i laugh at all these people that want to "fix it". Bullshit.

I don't agree. The problem is in viewing it as an all or nothing.

There is also the issue of WHO we are as Americans at play. Are we the kind of people who are going to punish kids for what their parents did? We are a nation of immigrants and that also plays into it. How do we fix the problems but not become barbaric in the process? I see your argument that they wouldn't come over illegally if there aren't incentives but what are the incentives? Kind of depends on what immigrant you are.

There are jobs that pay better than in Mexico. Even if they are piss poor by American terms. Because of that people are willing to take horrendous gambles with their lives (and die) to come here. And they are willing to live in crap conditions if they have to. Others are escaping violence and lawlessness in their countries. What ever they get here is still likely to be better than what they face at home. Seems like some kind of work visa would be good - it would stem some of the illegal immigration, those people who are looking more for jobs then for citizenship and give us better control over who is in our country.

 

[Fueri]

The politicians won't change them because they lose votes either way. It's more politically expedient for pols of all stripes to take this non-committal path and play in the margins so they can all continue to pander to their respective constituents.

It's a sell out, as usual.

 

[TNHarley]

"comprehensive immigration reform" pretty much means amnesty. Sound bites is all it is.

Means more then that.

I don't support a wall. I think it's a stupid waste of money and will cause more problems then it would solve. I support immigration reform at both ends:

• increased border security and use of modern technology to do that - drones for example
  
• more rapid deportation of those convicted of violent crimes
• a path to citizenship for those who came over as children, and have been good citizens
• some form of amnesty for those who have been good citizens - served in the military, etc
• increasing the number of work visas we give out to encourage legal, temporary immigration for those who do jobs that, truly - Americans won't do
• instead of putting all that money into the frigging wall - put it into modernizing the technology and efficiency of the agencies involved in immigration to speed up the legal bottleneck and also to keep track of people coming in on visas and temporary work permits.

That's comprehensive.

ICE agents.
Amnesty incites more illegals. That would be considered a failure by just about any definition.
Im not into the wall either, really. But if its all i can get...
If we took away all their incentives by fining employers, require everify for renting and buying, no more schooling (that's was a terrible judgement and it would be EASY to come up with reasons why it should be looked at again) things like that, we wouldn't need a wall or technology because they wouldn't come at all. They will leave/stay where they are from if all they are doing is starving, sleeping in the streets and their children are dumb.
Im not into work VISAs right now. I put Americans first. We have around 10M able bodied people not in the workforce. And a kinda high unemployment. Especially in some areas. But maybe one day.

I disagree with education - the kids had no say in what their parents did, and frankly - a large uneducated populace is bad for us overall.

Its not our populace. They are illegal aliens.
Again, the reason they come is incentive. If you want the border fixed, why continue with the main cause? Its completely contradictory. That's why i laugh at all these people that want to "fix it". Bullshit.

I don't agree. The problem is in viewing it as an all or nothing.

There is also the issue of WHO we are as Americans at play. Are we the kind of people who are going to punish kids for what their parents did? We are a nation of immigrants and that also plays into it. How do we fix the problems but not become barbaric in the process? I see your argument that they wouldn't come over illegally if there aren't incentives but what are the incentives? Kind of depends on what immigrant you are.

There are jobs that pay better than in Mexico. Even if they are piss poor by American terms. Because of that people are willing to take horrendous gambles with their lives (and die) to come here. And they are willing to live in crap conditions if they have to. Others are escaping violence and lawlessness in their countries. What ever they get here is still likely to be better than what they face at home. Seems like some kind of work visa would be good - it would stem some of the illegal immigration, those people who are looking more for jobs then for citizenship and give us better control over who is in our country.

So you think people that are escaping poverty and crime will go through a work visa process? lol
Jobs are incentive. That's why we need mandatory everify and HARSH punishments for employers.
Its punishing to a lot more people to let them stay. Like American citizens. Do they not count?
The problem is in viewing it as an all or nothing.
We either have laws, or we don't. It should be up to no person to decide what laws we should and shouldn't abide by.