Why we want stimulus now and worry about deficits later

[thereisnospoon]

Kinda hurts doesn't it. If your party talks about changing social security, Medicare, Food Stamps or unemployment benefits they will automatically effect the possibility of losing tens of millions of votes. I think they had better be careful what they say. All of us aren't members of the T Party

If you people are serious talk about cutting the defense budget. Our military is stronger than that of the next ten country's combined. We don't need hand held flying robots and people in Denver flying drones over Pakistan by remote control....military toys. One of your own presidents, Dwight Eisenhower warned of the pending military-industrial complex over fifty years ago but nobody paid any attention to him.

It's funny how the Right will rant about being dependent on the government, and then the minute you mention cutting defense spending you'll start hearing, from the same people,

about how many American jobs in the defense industry will be lost.

The idea of soldiers of fortune who work for Blackwater or Halliburton losing their jobs is to me a good thing. They're knocking down six figures plus ha ardous duty pay and that's the only reason they do what they do. phuck 'em!

That is a completely narrow minded and specious statement.
Just admit that you despise anyone who carries a weapon. Jerk.
That puppy in your avatar is smarter than you. Chicken foot.

 

[thereisnospoon]

There is even less proof that it didn't.



The government clearly underestimated the depth of the crisis and the size of an adequate stimulus. But it does not mean that the stimulus we had was useless.

Yes. Here we go. When a lib's argument runs out of gas, demand that the opposing viewpoint prove a negative....Around here, it doesn't work that way.
You make a claim, you'd better damned well be prepared to provide factual support for the claim. Failing that, your argument is mere opinion and conjecture.

The CBO has thoroughly analyzed the effects of the stimulus on GDP and UE.

You can find them here:

Congressional Budget Office (CBO)


All of their analysis shows GDP increases and UE decreases as a result of the stimulus.

If you wish to disprove the validity of their analysis, with your own, by all means, post it.

Yes, the non-partisan CBO....Hey genuius, from where do you think the CBO gets it's information?
DO you really believe the administration would sit idly by while the CBO rips apart the Admin's agenda?

 

[ilia25]

Nobody has to prove anything. There is no single variable correlation in an economy that is complex as this one.

You've never been able to prove the two are related.

I am so tired of you the dump people! Can you suggest a model in which the stimulus would NOT improve a depressed economy? When you claim that the stimulus did not work, you have to prove it because otherwise there is no single reason to believe that it didn't!

You don't prove negatives...

So if you'd say that you will won't be killed by jumping from 10th floor window, we should simply believe your word?

Government places orders, companies respond by stopping the lay-offs -- what other outcome could you possibly expect?

Gubmint has no money of its own, therefore it either has to drain it from the private sector

Bullshit -- the reason the economy remains depressed is that large sums of money in the private sector are sitting idle, neither spent, nor invested. That is precisely the reason why, by borrowing and spending those idle money, the stimulus adds to the aggregate demand.

 

[ilia25]

Yes. Here we go. When a lib's argument runs out of gas, demand that the opposing viewpoint prove a negative....Around here, it doesn't work that way.
You make a claim, you'd better damned well be prepared to provide factual support for the claim. Failing that, your argument is mere opinion and conjecture.

The CBO has thoroughly analyzed the effects of the stimulus on GDP and UE.

You can find them here:

Congressional Budget Office (CBO)


All of their analysis shows GDP increases and UE decreases as a result of the stimulus.

If you wish to disprove the validity of their analysis, with your own, by all means, post it.

Yes, the non-partisan CBO....Hey genuius, from where do you think the CBO gets it's information?
DO you really believe the administration would sit idly by while the CBO rips apart the Admin's agenda?

 

[saveliberty]

I am so tired of you the dump people! Can you suggest a model in which the stimulus would NOT improve a depressed economy? When you claim that the stimulus did not work, you have to prove it because otherwise there is no single reason to believe that it didn't!

You don't prove negatives...

So if you'd say that you will won't be killed by jumping from 10th floor window, we should simply believe your word?

Government places orders, companies respond by stopping the lay-offs -- what other outcome could you possibly expect?

Gubmint has no money of its own, therefore it either has to drain it from the private sector

Bullshit -- the reason the economy remains depressed is that large sums of money in the private sector are sitting idle, neither spent, nor invested. That is precisely the reason why, by borrowing and spending those idle money, the stimulus adds to the aggregate demand.

Why should business go out and create expenses (jobs and inventory), when the consumer can't afford to buy it? Ris k is too high, businesses are being rational players (Austrian economics).

 

[saveliberty]

So if you'd say that you will won't be killed by jumping from 10th floor window, we should simply believe your word?

The sign of a failed argument.

How is that stagflation argument coming?

 

[Oddball]

I am so tired of you the dump people! Can you suggest a model in which the stimulus would NOT improve a depressed economy? When you claim that the stimulus did not work, you have to prove it because otherwise there is no single reason to believe that it didn't!

You don't prove negatives...

So if you'd say that you will won't be killed by jumping from 10th floor window, we should simply believe your word?

Bullshit analogy...Aside from the logical fallacy of demanding proof of a negative, economics doesn't have the same objectively quantifiable and physically verifiable properties as does gravity.

Government places orders, companies respond by stopping the lay-offs -- what other outcome could you possibly expect?

Gubmint has no money of its own, therefore it either has to drain it from the private sector

Bullshit -- the reason the economy remains depressed is that large sums of money in the private sector are sitting idle, neither spent, nor invested. That is precisely the reason why, by borrowing and spending those idle money, the stimulus adds to the aggregate demand.

Bullshit...The reason the economy remains depressed and the money is on the sidelines is because business are dealing with a know-nothing tyrant president and kleptocratic Marxist regime that is hostile to them...That and, contrary to the baseless assertions of the no-Keyesian socialists, you really cannot push a rope.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Yes. Here we go. When a lib's argument runs out of gas, demand that the opposing viewpoint prove a negative....Around here, it doesn't work that way.
You make a claim, you'd better damned well be prepared to provide factual support for the claim. Failing that, your argument is mere opinion and conjecture.

The CBO has thoroughly analyzed the effects of the stimulus on GDP and UE.

You can find them here:

Congressional Budget Office (CBO)


All of their analysis shows GDP increases and UE decreases as a result of the stimulus.

If you wish to disprove the validity of their analysis, with your own, by all means, post it.

They should have been around during the late 30's when Roosevelt's WPA, CCC, RFD, TVA etc. kicked in. You could measure the progress Americans were making my the decreasing numbers of beggers knocking on the back door asking for food for work. As if anybody living in a three room shack with a tenth of an acre lot would have anything for them to do. After my Dad got his first regular job which paid with a regular check as timekeeper on the WPA he always told my Mom to keep warm beans and some corn bread on the stove to give to beggers. He always said, "If A Man Will Humiliate Himself By Asking For Food I Will Not Be The One Who Humiliates Himself By Refusing." My dad used to say he would steal before he would ask.

Your point?
Look, you may have the luxury of living in a world where you can conjure up all kinds of stories from the past that you may believe apply to real world 2012, but the fact is they do not apply.
On numerous occasions ideas such as "workfare" have been suggested or even tried. The result was howls of protest from recipients who make al kinds of excuses as to why they cannot work for their portion of the trough. Or the politically correct liberal establishment runs to the nearest courthouse to file one lawsuit after another to stop the practice. And of course the inevitable cries of racism.
So please, spare us the examples of heroic WPA workers and FDR's New Deal. Because at the end of the day no one can get these lazy entitled people off their asses and join the producers.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I am so tired of you the dump people! Can you suggest a model in which the stimulus would NOT improve a depressed economy? When you claim that the stimulus did not work, you have to prove it because otherwise there is no single reason to believe that it didn't!

You don't prove negatives...

So if you'd say that you will won't be killed by jumping from 10th floor window, we should simply believe your word?

Government places orders, companies respond by stopping the lay-offs -- what other outcome could you possibly expect?

Gubmint has no money of its own, therefore it either has to drain it from the private sector

Bullshit -- the reason the economy remains depressed is that large sums of money in the private sector are sitting idle, neither spent, nor invested. That is precisely the reason why, by borrowing and spending those idle money, the stimulus adds to the aggregate demand.

The lack of spending by the private sector is a direct result of uncertainty created by government.
No business owner in their right mind would spend capital without a reasonable certian of positive return on investment.
The argument that private enterprise is sitting on cash does not wash.
BTW, Obama is running around the country telling anyone who will listen that he is createing jobs( you people thorw out the number 3 million) and the economy is moving forward.
So which is it? Are we in an economic depression or is the economy moving forward?
You people think you can have it both ways. You can't. We will not permit it.
Borrowing which increases already bulbous deficits, does nothing to grow economies.
Borrowing and spending by government creates inflation be devaluing the currency.
The negative effects of deficit spending are being masked by the artifical suppression of interest rates by the Federal Reserve.
Infaltion is occuring now. Look at the price of commodities. Any commodity tied to the US Dollar is seeing rapid price increases. In particular crude oil and gasoline.

 

[saveliberty]

Congratulations left, you have created a generational entitlement subspecies! If you cut entitlements, you MIGHT motivate a few to get back in the workforce.

 

[saveliberty]

The lack of spending by the private sector is a direct result of uncertainty created by government.
No business owner in their right mind would spend capital without a reasonable certian of positive return on investment.
The argument that private enterprise is sitting on cash does not wash.
BTW, Obama is running around the country telling anyone who will listen that he is createing jobs( you people thorw out the number 3 million) and the economy is moving forward.
So which is it? Are we in an economic depression or is the economy moving forward?
You people think you can have it both ways. You can't. We will not permit it.
Borrowing which increases already bulbous deficits, does nothing to grow economies.
Borrowing and spending by government creates inflation be devaluing the currency.
The negative effects of deficit spending are being masked by the artifical suppression of interest rates by the Federal Reserve.
Infaltion is occuring now. Look at the price of commodities. Any commodity tied to the US Dollar is seeing rapid price increases. In particular crude oil and gasoline.

In addition to being correct, it is rational behavior as shown by Austrian economics.

 

[Cammmpbell]

The disingenuously dubbed OASI and Medicare "trust funds" were brought on budget and their excess funds siphoned off to the "balance the budget"...Do this in the real world and you go to prison...Do it as a politician and neo-Keynesian socialist party man hacks laud you as a great steward of gubmint finances.

Like we needed any more proof that you are a blind authoritarian socialist central controller lemming.

For your information Red is Republican....Blue is Democrat. Kind of tells the story when Bush took over a surplus, cut taxes in 2001, 2003 and ran us in the hole again. Are You Ignorant or Stupid Everyone else seems to understand:

another worthless chart from the boards biggest liar.


Here are the real figures asswipe.

Government - Historical Debt Outstanding – Annual

You either can't read or don't want to. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Clinton's last three years there was a house resolution which declared that surpluses would be used to buy back debt. Consequently the debt owed by the U S was reduced by $450 billion. You and your blind cohorts can't stand the fact that Reagan-Bush41 ran up a three trillion dollar debt, Clinton balanced the annual budget and generated $450 billion of surplus.....then the idiot George W. Bush cut taxes twice and proceeded to double the total debt from $5.7 to nearly $12 trillion. I don't blame you....anything that preposterous after coming off a balanced annual budget and surpluses is definitely something to be ashamed of. That stupid Bush started two wars...one totally unnecessary and spent money like there was no tomorrow and like all other Republican regimes during my lifetime never cut a goddam dime from spending.

Here is the congressional record.....LIVE WITH IT:




H.RES.490 -- Save Our Surplus for Debt Reduction and Tax Rebate Resolution of 2000 (Introduced in House - IH)


HRES 490 IH


106th CONGRESS

2d Session

H. RES. 490
To ensure that the fiscal year 2000 on-budget surplus is used to reduce publicly-held debt and provide tax relief to American taxpayers.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

May 4, 2000
Mr. WELDON of Florida (for himself, Mr. ARMEY, Mr. DELAY, Mr. LARGENT, Mr. COBURN, and Mr. STEARNS) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Ways and Means


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


RESOLUTION
To ensure that the fiscal year 2000 on-budget surplus is used to reduce publicly-held debt and provide tax relief to American taxpayers.


Resolved,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Save Our Surplus for Debt Reduction and Tax Rebate Resolution of 2000'.

SEC. 2. FINDINGS AND PURPOSE.

(a) FINDINGS- Congress finds that--

(1) the Office of Management and Budget estimated in the President's fiscal year 2001 budget submission that the Government will have a $19,000,000,000 nonsocial security surplus (on-budget surplus ) in fiscal year 2000;

(2) it is expected that in the summer of 2000, the Office of Management and Budget will estimate an even larger budget surplus for fiscal year 2000;

(3) Government spending in fiscal year 2000 will increase faster than the rate of inflation for a total of over $1,750,000,000,000;

(4) the public debt has been paid down by $51,000,000,000 in fiscal year 1998, $88,000,000,000 in fiscal year 1999, and current estimates are that $163,000,000,000 will be paid down in fiscal year 2000;



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[ilia25]

You don't prove negatives...

So if you'd say that you will won't be killed by jumping from 10th floor window, we should simply believe your word?

Bullshit analogy...Aside from the logical fallacy of demanding proof of a negative, economics doesn't have the same objectively quantifiable and physically verifiable properties as does gravity.

Gubmint has no money of its own, therefore it either has to drain it from the private sector

Bullshit -- the reason the economy remains depressed is that large sums of money in the private sector are sitting idle, neither spent, nor invested. That is precisely the reason why, by borrowing and spending those idle money, the stimulus adds to the aggregate demand.

Bullshit...The reason the economy remains depressed and the money is on the sidelines is because business are dealing with a know-nothing tyrant president and kleptocratic Marxist regime that is hostile to them...

And do you have a single shred of evidence to support that fairly tale? Every poll shows businessman pointing a single most important reason for why they are not expanding -- lack of demand. Not taxes, not regulation, but the slow sales.

Which is also confirmed by the low capacity utilization -- why would you expand, if you already have a lot of spare production capacity?

 

[saveliberty]

And do you have a single shred of evidence to support that fairly tale? Every poll shows businessman pointing a single most important reason for why they are not expanding -- lack of demand. Not taxes, not regulation, but the slow sales.

Which is also confirmed by the low capacity utilization -- why would you expand, if you already have a lot of spare production capacity?

Meanwhile, 48 percent of those not hiring said it was due to concerns about possible rising health care costs, while 46 percent said they were worried about new government regulations.

“The debate over why U.S. small-business owners aren’t hiring more aggressively tends to hinge on whether overall business conditions, including a lack of growth and revenue, are the primary culprit as opposed to the potential cost of healthcare and government regulations. Apparently, both sides of the debate are correct,” Gallup said.

Read more: Poll: Small-business owners fear economic situation - MJ Lee - POLITICO.com

Enter the shread...

 

[Oddball]

Ladies and genitals...The resounding thud you just heard came from a neo-Keynesian know-it-all theorist, getting whomped firmly upside the head with a gunny sack full of actual reality.

 

[ilia25]

And do you have a single shred of evidence to support that fairly tale? Every poll shows businessman pointing a single most important reason for why they are not expanding -- lack of demand. Not taxes, not regulation, but the slow sales.

Which is also confirmed by the low capacity utilization -- why would you expand, if you already have a lot of spare production capacity?

Meanwhile, 48 percent of those not hiring said it was due to concerns about possible rising health care costs, while 46 percent said they were worried about new government regulations.

“The debate over why U.S. small-business owners aren’t hiring more aggressively tends to hinge on whether overall business conditions, including a lack of growth and revenue, are the primary culprit as opposed to the potential cost of healthcare and government regulations. Apparently, both sides of the debate are correct,” Gallup said.

Read more: Poll: Small-business owners fear economic situation - MJ Lee - POLITICO.com

Isn't that what I said -- a single most important reason is the lack of demand -- not the taxes or regulations?

As for the health care costs, they too can only tilt the balance if the sales are slow. So, again, the sufficient demand would be reason enough to expand even in the face of the rising taxes, or health costs.

 

[Oddball]

must...grasp...at....every....available....straw....in....the....face...of...the....facts....

 

[saveliberty]

And do you have a single shred of evidence to support that fairly tale? Every poll shows businessman pointing a single most important reason for why they are not expanding -- lack of demand. Not taxes, not regulation, but the slow sales.

Which is also confirmed by the low capacity utilization -- why would you expand, if you already have a lot of spare production capacity?

Meanwhile, 48 percent of those not hiring said it was due to concerns about possible rising health care costs, while 46 percent said they were worried about new government regulations.

“The debate over why U.S. small-business owners aren’t hiring more aggressively tends to hinge on whether overall business conditions, including a lack of growth and revenue, are the primary culprit as opposed to the potential cost of healthcare and government regulations. Apparently, both sides of the debate are correct,” Gallup said.

Read more: Poll: Small-business owners fear economic situation - MJ Lee - POLITICO.com

Isn't that what I said -- a single most important reason is the lack of demand -- not the taxes or regulations?

As for the health care costs, they too can only tilt the balance if the sales are slow. So, again, the sufficient demand would be reason enough to expand even in the face of the rising taxes, or health costs.

No its not what you said at all. You think government spending will solve all of this. It is only a small minority of companies which can get a government contract. Small business will lead the employment charge. Most, if not all are exempt from working with the government. Demand will change when there is more employment at a higher wage rate. Obama's plans have proven failures in thsi area. Oh, and by the way, early indicators for February are 8.8% unemployment.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Meanwhile, 48 percent of those not hiring said it was due to concerns about possible rising health care costs, while 46 percent said they were worried about new government regulations.

“The debate over why U.S. small-business owners aren’t hiring more aggressively tends to hinge on whether overall business conditions, including a lack of growth and revenue, are the primary culprit as opposed to the potential cost of healthcare and government regulations. Apparently, both sides of the debate are correct,” Gallup said.

Read more: Poll: Small-business owners fear economic situation - MJ Lee - POLITICO.com

Isn't that what I said -- a single most important reason is the lack of demand -- not the taxes or regulations?

As for the health care costs, they too can only tilt the balance if the sales are slow. So, again, the sufficient demand would be reason enough to expand even in the face of the rising taxes, or health costs.

No its not what you said at all. You think government spending will solve all of this. It is only a small minority of companies which can get a government contract. Small business will lead the employment charge. Most, if not all are exempt from working with the government. Demand will change when there is more employment at a higher wage rate. Obama's plans have proven failures in thsi area. Oh, and by the way, early indicators for February are 8.8% unemployment.

You're projecting that the U S unemployment rate will jump from 8.3% to 8.8% in one month.....a short month at that

 

[saveliberty]

Isn't that what I said -- a single most important reason is the lack of demand -- not the taxes or regulations?

As for the health care costs, they too can only tilt the balance if the sales are slow. So, again, the sufficient demand would be reason enough to expand even in the face of the rising taxes, or health costs.

No its not what you said at all. You think government spending will solve all of this. It is only a small minority of companies which can get a government contract. Small business will lead the employment charge. Most, if not all are exempt from working with the government. Demand will change when there is more employment at a higher wage rate. Obama's plans have proven failures in thsi area. Oh, and by the way, early indicators for February are 8.8% unemployment.

You're projecting that the U S unemployment rate will jump from 8.3% to 8.8% in one month.....a short month at that

No I expect revised figures at 8.5% for January, and 8,8% for February. Thanks for asking.