Why wont god heal amputees

[Gunny]

Oh it is very easy to "argue" religion with me.

GIVE ME SOME PROOF THAT YOUR RELIGION IS BETTER THAN OTHER RELIGIONS! If its not, why do you believe in it and not Hinduism, for example?

Of course it is pointless to quote any scripture until we have gotten past the absolute basics in a "religious argument" such as, why the heck is your religion any better than a religion I can make up right here and now?

Darwin 1:1 - All other religions are crap, I am God and have the right to ridicule all other false-gods and their silly little sheep. They should also send me free cookies, as a token of their love for my esteemed person, or live their afterlife sunk in a pit of shit. So Sayeth I, God!

How about you give me proof that YOUR religion is better than others ...?

 

[Gunny]

I do not identify with any group called "atheists" so I dont care. It is just a word to explain the absense of belief in silly religions. It does not make the non-believers into a group the same way a shared belief does.

People who come and discuss religion on messageboards better be prepared to discuss religion, don't you think? I can keep on asking for religious people to make sense until they accept that they cannot and move on, np.

You can keep asking, but please don't delude yourself into believe you're the first or even the last who has come through with the same argument, and left having converted no one to their way of thinking.

When you get to the part where you cannot prove YOUR argument, and accept it, then you can change and move on.

 

[Darwin]

Of course it doesn't mean that it is true. However it is what is termed "evidence". Please realize the difference between evidence and proof. They are NOT interchangable and the difference is very important in this discussion.

Its Ruby you are discussing semantics with. Im discussing reality vs. imagination. They are not interchangeable and the difference is very important in this discussion.

As opposed to the other moral systems which are based on reason? Moral systems are subjective and based on little except intuitions.

What I'm saying is there might be causes worth fighting and dying for, like kicking USA out of Vietnam, or kicking USA out of Iraq, or kicking USA out of Afghanistan, etc... if they are based on the fact that an aggressive imperialist invader is occupying their land it is at least based in reality. If they are doing it to go to heaven and get 72 virgins to have sex with, it is most likely religion.

Congratulations. Unfortunately that success of your country has not removed the stupidity in you that is described as nationalism.

Am I a nationalist just because I can identify something a society can do better than a faith based organization, which is depending on the individual members willingness to part with an ammount of cash they decide on their own? Don't think so. Most of Europe have this system to varying degrees.

I guess im a "socialist" like I said and you are the nationalist capitalist who lash out just because I presented the solution most people have figured out is a good one, including Germany, Sweden, England, Venezuela, Cuba, Canada.. etc etc... Point that nationalist finger at yourself why dont you?

Religious people are bad? Based on what would you claim such a thing? By the way, I do hope you realize that this short set of assertions doesn't come near to producing any sort of coherent argument, much less a logical one.

Just keeping it simple. Religious people are bad in the same way the people attending Adolf Hitlers mass-meetings rasing their right arms in the air screaming SIEG HEIL and feeling that religious warm feeling of belonging flare up inside them, knowing they belong to the true path and they are going to show the world who are superior?

You are severely uninformed if you think that critical thinking will always produce the same anwser.

I do not think that you thinking about things and me thinking about things will produce the same answer. I do think people have varying abilities to use critical thinking to reach a valid answer though, and that the more educated mind will have more educated facts to use in their critical thinking to reach the answer they seek. I am certainly not right all the time, but I have pondered religion and discussed religion with many religious people and so far I have not come across one that seem to make any sense at all, on the subject of religion. Most fun I had with some Jehovas Witnesses so far. Noone here can yet compare to them, sadly.

 

[mattskramer]

People having fervent belief is not evidence of a god, not even a tiny bit. It means they have been brainwashed and want to believe it and its a shame really cause you point to one of the most dangerous things in religion. People who think there is some heaven and immortality beyond this life are also ready to toss it away carelessly and wont value the only real life we do have. People can be convinced of many things, but that dosent make those things valid or real.

People value their lives (Christian or not). I think that people must have a very strong faith in God and the afterlife if someone were to stick a gun in their faces and tell them to denounce God. “If I denounce God I continue to live but face Hell when I die.” If I refuse to denounce God I die now but go to spend eternity in heaven”.

I guess you are going with god of the gaps now? LOL!

No. I have not decided. I still bounce back and forth.

No I am not a bit surprised that science hasnt filled in all the gaps....I think its quite possible that in 1000 years they STILL wont have filled in all the gaps.

But let me ask YOU a question on that same line of reasoning. Dont you think that by now all those religious people would have been able to come up with at least ONE peice of solid evidence of gods existance? You seem ok with that but want science to have ALL the answers by now?

I see your point. Religion is more a faith than a science. It does not prove anything but it does fill in the gaps that science has yet to fill.

You also highlight another problem, religion claims to have ALL the answers which means there is no reason to move FORWARD or search for the REAL answers. It encourages us to NOT think further or develop further and keep us stuck in ancient cultures and ancient science. Religion dosent actually OFFER any real ANSWERS, it offers fake answers that arent based in reality or based upon evidence. According to the bible the earth is pretty young and we KNOW that isnt true...those are the kinds of false answers the bible and religion provides. Its called bad info and mis-education....you honestly want to support somthing like that?

Even the Bible says, “Come, let us reason”. I don’t know of any preacher who says to not study science and think. Religion offers answers to fill in the gaps that science has yet to fill. For me, the fact that gaps remain is more supporting to the notion that God might exist than would be the absence of gaps. Even if I were to believe that God exists, it does not follow that I believe in every sentence of the Bible. People often interpret it figuratively. In addition, I have argued against people who say that we should outlaw this or that because the Bible supposedly says so. I do not support the religious right.

 

[Larkinn]

Not sure what point you are trying to make. Like the quote said, Aristotele was quite outdated in many ways, especially science. He also said he could still have sat in on religious discussions today as religion has not advanced at all since the days of when a bunch of guys sat down and made the bible up.

Really? Here are some Christian Philosophers who have changed things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Christian_philosophers

Except the most obvious mistakes so thoroughly proven to be crap by science they have had to revise their views. Like calling Galileo Galilei a heretic for daring to claim that our planet is revolving around the Sun.

Religion definitely has its share of failures.

My point was mostly that The Bible and all other religious text of the major and most minor religions, except the Spaghetti monster etc, are very very old and written by people who were very very clueless. Not because they were stupid, but they were very very primitive. Religion does not produce anything useful beyond some spiritual medication for people who need it as a crutch to get through their lives, or for people who are just plain lazy I guess and do not want to educate themselves (which is bad).

That something is old does not mean it is bad/wrong/incorrect. You being a Darwinian should know that the most efficient animals are the oldest...because they haven't changed because there is no need for them to change.

Religion produces many useful things. It gives people a decent ethical system. It gives people a reason to have compassion, to care, and to give. It gives people a purpose to life, something which many atheists lack. And perhaps most importantly it makes a lot of people very happy.

I'm ok with people being religious as long as they keep it private and never try to influence laws or other people based on their insanity which is best kept private.

How generous of you.

My problem is with religious people who refuse to accept that science DO have important answers regarding how we are screwing up the planet for ourselves, and even more so for the coming generations of mankind and all the other wonderful and amazing life forms we are exterminating with our stupidity and lack of education.

That is a subsection of the religious population. I agree with you that when it comes to topics like this and global warming the religious folk need to be disregarded in favor of those who can rely on evidence.

One solution would of course be to remove the right of religious people to vote, but I think it is better to fight religion with education than fascism.

Err...please tell me that is not a serious consideration.

In Sweden we use tax money to help the most unfortunate of our society get what they need to survive. Free and advanced health care for all citizens is another solution. See how much better socialism is than religion?

Mao, Stalin, etc, etc. Your country is one of only a few examples of real socialism actually working.

 

[Larkinn]

Evidence can be observed by third parties freely and would not depend on your internal experience or interpertation.

So do you believe that there was a lunar eclipse last week? It cannot be independently verified by any third parties...just people in the past who saw it then.

 

[Larkinn]

No, when I intend something to be humor, I don't expect the gaggle of humorless sticks in the mud to try and present it as anything else.

So you expect the "gaggle of humorless sticks in the mud" to present your humor as humor? Seems, by your own definitions, as a rather stupid belief to me.

 

[mattskramer]

In Sweden we use tax money to help the most unfortunate of our society get what they need to survive. Free and advanced health care for all citizens is another solution. See how much better socialism is than religion?

Do you mean that you never donate freely to help your neighbor in Sweden? In America we use tax money and people give to charity. Do you get free health care – doctors work for free – they don’t get paid!? Wow. But wait. Well sometimes we have that in America. Some Christian doctors will donate their time for free.

 

[Darwin]

You can keep asking, but please don't delude yourself into believe you're the first or even the last who has come through with the same argument, and left having converted no one to their way of thinking.

When you get to the part where you cannot prove YOUR argument, and accept it, then you can change and move on.

I am mostly discussing to educate myself on how the mind of religious people work. I like knowing things, unlike some. You seem to be skilled at posting without any content at all though, so not very educating to discuss things with you, if it can be called a discussion. Perhaps you just post to show you are still breathing, in case people get worried if you dont?

 

[Gunny]

So you expect the "gaggle of humorless sticks in the mud" to present your humor as humor? Seems, by your own definitions, as a rather stupid belief to me.

No, actually I don't expect much of anything. Sad but true.

 

[Darwin]

Do you mean that you never donate freely to help your neighbor in Sweden? In America we use tax money and people give to charity. Do you get free health care – doctors work for free – they don’t get paid!? Wow. But wait. Well sometimes we have that in America. Some Christian doctors will donate their time for free.

If i need health care I walk for 2 minutes to the closest doctors office. There I state my problem and a general practitioner or whatever you call them, someone who is not super specialiced, examines me. If he cannot help me 100% with my problem he refers me to another doctor, who might work in a government funded or private hospital. There I will also get the help they can offer, be it a broken toe or brain cancer surgery.

They bill our "social insurance" which it might translate to, which is run by the government, and they get payed what they want, or rather, there are agreed on fees for medical treatments so a private practicioner can live a good life billing it all to the state, unless its elective surgery like boob jobs, that has to be payed for by the patient unless a medical problem can be shown as a reason, like too big breasts for the back to take it. There are no arguments about right to health care in Sweden. We get it if we need it, and tax money pay for it. All who have a Swedish "Social security number" which is all citizens and people with residence permits, have right to unlimited health care.

Works for us, we like it and we like to pay for it. There is no debate about this in Sweden. We love our health care and the security it gives us. A wonderful non-issue, which will stay a non-issue until some moron would try to change the system

 

[Gunny]

I am mostly discussing to educate myself on how the mind of religious people work. I like knowing things, unlike some. You seem to be skilled at posting without any content at all though, so not very educating to discuss things with you, if it can be called a discussion. Perhaps you just post to show you are still breathing, in case people get worried if you dont?

No, actually I've already decided you are a self-righteous dick and not worth bothering with.

 

[Darwin]

So do you believe that there was a lunar eclipse last week? It cannot be independently verified by any third parties...just people in the past who saw it then.

Why can't it be independently verified by any third parties? Because you say so? Can you unprove that GWB is the president too?

 

[mattskramer]

If i need health care I walk for 2 minutes to the closest doctors office. There I state my problem and a general practitioner or whatever you call them, someone who is not super specialiced, examines me. If he cannot help me 100% with my problem he refers me to another doctor, who might work in a government funded or private hospital. There I will also get the help they can offer, be it a broken toe or brain cancer surgery.

They bill our "social insurance" which it might translate to, which is run by the government, and they get payed what they want, or rather, there are agreed on fees for medical treatments so a private practicioner can live a good life billing it all to the state, unless its elective surgery like boob jobs, that has to be payed for by the patient unless a medical problem can be shown as a reason, like too big breasts for the back to take it. There are no arguments about right to health care in Sweden. We get it if we need it, and tax money pay for it. All who have a Swedish "Social security number" which is all citizens and people with residence permits, have right to unlimited health care.

Works for us, we like it and we like to pay for it. There is no debate about this in Sweden. We love our health care and the security it gives us. A wonderful non-issue, which will stay a non-issue until some moron would try to change the system

I imagine that you have debates about your tax rate and abuse of the system. Heath care is not free. Someone pays for you to get treated. Cost/benefit analysis explains that when there is low cost (for the patient) then there is high demand. You would be more likely to see an emergency room doctor to treat a paper cut if you don’t have to pay for it yourself. If you did have to pay more for your treatment, you might opt to buy yourself some bandages.

 

[Larkinn]

Its Ruby you are discussing semantics with. Im discussing reality vs. imagination. They are not interchangeable and the difference is very important in this discussion.

They are not interchangable. However you are attempting to prove what is reality and what is imagination. If, in the process, you are unable to distinguish between evidence and proof, your arguments are not worth listening too.

What I'm saying is there might be causes worth fighting and dying for, like kicking USA out of Vietnam, or kicking USA out of Iraq, or kicking USA out of Afghanistan, etc...

If those are the best causes you can think of, you know very little about international affairs.

if they are based on the fact that an aggressive imperialist invader is occupying their land it is at least based in reality. If they are doing it to go to heaven and get 72 virgins to have sex with, it is most likely religion.

Thats nice. If that was your point to begin with, it seems to have been irrelevant.

Am I a nationalist just because I can identify something a society can do better than a faith based organization, which is depending on the individual members willingness to part with an ammount of cash they decide on their own? Don't think so. Most of Europe have this system to varying degrees.

You are a nationalist because you are implying that your country is better than mine. Its ok...admit to your idiocies. I'm curious...how much has your society provided to the people suffering around the world, and how much has mine? I'd say we've done a hell of a lot more than you have.

I guess im a "socialist" like I said and you are the nationalist capitalist who lash out just because I presented the solution most people have figured out is a good one, including Germany, Sweden, England, Venezuela, Cuba, Canada.. etc etc... Point that nationalist finger at yourself why dont you?

What an incredibly stupid assertion. You will find few here, or anywhere, who is less nationalistic than I am. By the way...before spewing your shit, try reading some of the archives. I am one of the boards staunchest defenders of Universal Health Care. But really...if you want to defend the standard, don't include Venezuala or Cuba in the mix...the "most people" who you've counted combined don't add up to the population of the United States.

Just keeping it simple. Religious people are bad in the same way the people attending Adolf Hitlers mass-meetings rasing their right arms in the air screaming SIEG HEIL and feeling that religious warm feeling of belonging flare up inside them, knowing they belong to the true path and they are going to show the world who are superior?

No. Germany under Hitler wasn't bad because of its indoctrination. It was bad because of the massacre of millions of innocent people.

I do not think that you thinking about things and me thinking about things will produce the same answer. I do think people have varying abilities to use critical thinking to reach a valid answer though, and that the more educated mind will have more educated facts to use in their critical thinking to reach the answer they seek.

Some things have no anwser. This is one of them. Have fun discussing it, but if you are expecting an anwser at the end of the day you are a fool.

I am certainly not right all the time, but I have pondered religion and discussed religion with many religious people and so far I have not come across one that seem to make any sense at all, on the subject of religion.

If you are going to base your beliefs on laymen who you happen to come across and talk with, than of course that will be your belief. Most people, religious folk included, have little critical thinking, argumentative, or debate skills. You want to give something a real chance at persuading you? Read the experts, read people who have devoted their lives to proving these things.

 

[Darwin]

No, actually I've already decided you are a self-righteous dick and not worth bothering with.

You don't seem very interested in debating religion or why god does not heal amputees so I'm not sure why you have been posting on this thread at all, hence my so far unproven theory that you are just posting for the sake of getting your post count up or as a proof of life.

 

[Larkinn]

I am mostly discussing to educate myself on how the mind of religious people work.

Perhaps you need to educate yourself on when to make assumptions. I see now why you have such an unquestioning indoctrinated belief towards your own views. You make assumptions quickly and then stick to them. Not everyone you are discussing this with is religious. I am an agnostic and no fan of religion. However I am also not a fan of anyone who goes past their evidence with such certainty, as you are doing.

Why can't it be independently verified by any third parties? Because you say so?

Because it happened in the past.

Can you unprove that GWB is the president too?

As I said before, learn the difference between evidence and proof.

 

[Darwin]

They are not interchangable. However you are attempting to prove what is reality and what is imagination. If, in the process, you are unable to distinguish between evidence and proof, your arguments are not worth listening too.

As the distinction is a great interest of yours, please give us a short answer on the big difference between the two, as you see it. Then we can use that as a basis for further discussion. Thanks.

If those are the best causes you can think of, you know very little about international affairs.

I did not say they were the best causes? I just gave some examples off the top of my head, partly because I'm talking to an american as far as I know, I guess?

You are a nationalist because you are implying that your country is better than mine. Its ok...admit to your idiocies. I'm curious...how much has your society provided to the people suffering around the world, and how much has mine? I'd say we've done a hell of a lot more than you have.

I was not discussing which nation was better. I was discussing what was better of
1. Relying on religious charity
2. Having a reliable system which aims to help all, funded by all.

What an incredibly stupid assertion. You will find few here, or anywhere, who is less nationalistic than I am. By the way...before spewing your shit, try reading some of the archives. I am one of the boards staunchest defenders of Universal Health Care. But really...if you want to defend the standard, don't include Venezuala or Cuba in the mix...the "most people" who you've counted combined don't add up to the population of the United States.

You are the one criticizing me for saying socialist healthcare is better than charity. Calling me a nationalist for pointing this fact out too. I do not think that our health care is equal to our "nation", that is you who put those words in my mouth to try and "win" some argument I guess? Used to discussing things with Gunny I guess where "winning" seem to be a big focus.

No. Germany under Hitler wasn't bad because of its indoctrination. It was bad because of the massacre of millions of innocent people.

And the massacre of millions of people was possible how?

Some things have no anwser. This is one of them. Have fun discussing it, but if you are expecting an anwser at the end of the day you are a fool.

What "thing" are you refering to? Critical thinking which was something you brought up?

If you are going to base your beliefs on laymen who you happen to come across and talk with, than of course that will be your belief. Most people, religious folk included, have little critical thinking, argumentative, or debate skills. You want to give something a real chance at persuading you? Read the experts, read people who have devoted their lives to proving these things.

Most people who believe in something strongly, would probably do best to think about it too, don't you think? That is how I think you best fight racism, nationalism and such ruining a society. Bring the ideas up for discussion and analyze them thoroughly so we can try to see them for what they are. If religious people refuse to discuss religion, they are certainly free not to discuss it. A first step in the process that could be good is NOT TO DISCUSS IT ON MESSAGEBOARDS THEN, DON'T YOU THINK?

 

[manu1959]

You don't seem very interested in debating religion or why god does not heal amputees so I'm not sure why you have been posting on this thread at all, hence my so far unproven theory that you are just posting for the sake of getting your post count up or as a proof of life.

there is no point in debating religion....those that believe do....those that don't don't....

as for god healing amputees....faith heals....god does not heal....

 

[Darwin]

Perhaps you need to educate yourself on when to make assumptions. I see now why you have such an unquestioning indoctrinated belief towards your own views. You make assumptions quickly and then stick to them. Not everyone you are discussing this with is religious. I am an agnostic and no fan of religion. However I am also not a fan of anyone who goes past their evidence with such certainty, as you are doing.

What assumptions have I made? And in what way am I sticking to them? I have not noticed any real issue or any facts being discussed here yet.

Because it happened in the past.

It can still be proven with data though? The paths of the planets and their moons etc are not a big mystery nowadays?