With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

[Mom]

So basically you're saying that the framers wanted the militia to eventually have weapons that are obsolete against a real army. Got it. So you got fooled by the framers into thinking that you'd have a militia, when all you're left with is pea shooters and moonshine.

Nope, what the framers wanted was that individuals have in their possesion standard issue weapons given to the grunts so that they could become familiar with their use and have them for use in a well regulated militia. The other weapons (such as cannon and warships, etc) were not intended to be supplied or kept by individuals, but provided elsewhere. How many minutemen owned canon? How did the militia obtain cannon back in 1775? Let us take a sroll down memory lane..

In 1775 Fort Ticonderoga was a British fort on Lake Champlain and on the border of New York and Vermont which had several cannons.. Ethan Allen decided to stop making furniture for a bit so he could lead the Green Moutain Boys... now the Green Mountain boys, besides having pretty good coffee, were a militia... the members thereof being armed with rifles and muskets which they personally owned.. unfortunately they diod not own any cannon. Still following me?

Now them Green Mountain Boys (probably while drinking some Green Mountain Coffee) thought it would be a great idea if they did have some cannon and they also were aware that the Brits at Ticonderoga had some cannon. So on May 10, 1775 these dudes snuck up on the fort and surprised they Brits (they had figured out that the Brits probably would not want to give them the canon voluntarily) and captured the fort and the cannon. These cannons were subsequently transported to Dorchester Heights in Boston during the seige of Boston. When the Brits in Boston woke up and saw cannons staring them in the face, they decided that discretion is the better part of valor and they fled Boston. giving the Americans their first major victory of the War.

You just making this shit up? They wanted to purposely under-arm the militia?

Then you go on to tell a story about a militia that had cannons and took Boston. Please try to be consistent at least.

 

[Mom]

So owning a tank with all the appropriate munitions to protect your property is ok to you?

Not what I said but as you were trying to ‘trap’ people in what they say you continue to look like a fool. Try and actually discuss rather than trap.

So our conquest of Iraq, Afghanistan are negatives? And we should leave because we can't control the populace? Now THERE, I agree.
Btw, Israel should probably leave too then?

We should have never tried though attacking Afghanistan WAS the correct action. The whimsical things we did after is where the problem lies. Iraq is just a mess.

As far as Israel, apparently you have no clue. They should just leave? Where? That is there home, simple as that and they have nowhere to go. You can’t equivocate Israel’s conflicts with America going into Iraq. They are completely different actions.

If "You cannot take over an area where everything represents that resistance", then why did you let yourself be taken over by that African muslim, Barrack Obama, who protects muslims and their oil, instead of just taking it, like GW Bush in Iraq? Because you know deep down that your simple weapons can't take on the US army and you'd be likely killed early on?

Because I didn’t. We don’t have an African Muslim controlling anything. What we have is an American President (whose faith is irrelevant BTW) who runs just one single section of the government. Far be it from me to destroy your fantasies of crazy people opposing your asinine assertions because that is the only way you can justify your ignorance.

Further, I do not support armed insurrection not because of my fear of the military but because that would be asinine. We are not enslaved yet. We are not hungry yet. We are not being killed in the streets yet. War is ugly and insurrection far uglier. You have to be willing to accept that children and innocent are going to be brutally killed in horrific and painful ways. IOW, things need to be REALLY bad to cause such a reaction. We are not even in the ballpark of needing such a thing. The sad part that you are unable to realize is that NOW is the time to fight for our rights, all of them, because we need to prevent the need for armed insurrection for as long as possible. Hopefully (though history is disagrees) we never have to go through something like that. Hopefully.

Attacking Afghanistan to get at the Taliban and Osama is like invading Italy to get at the mafia. Absolutely absurd.

So when your "militia" does go to war with the US army, or should I say when you actually grow big enough balls to actually fight for your rights, will you be happy or pissed that all you have is a 2nd amendment pea shooter against all their hardware and bombs?

 

[FA_Q2]

My original claim:

What IS insane is that you not only accept but celebrate a homicide rate TEN TIMES that of similiar countries.

Gun-related homicide rates:

Germany 1.24

USA 10.3

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shall I go on?

That’s it sigon. I am fucking tired of you repeating the same bullshit over and over again. I already tore both those assertions – the asinine idea that ‘gun’ deaths is somehow different than non-gun deaths and the comparing of Germany to the USA sans ANY FUCKING VARIABLES that make Germany nothing like the USA in any way shape or form. I have directly countered your asinine assertions and every fucking time you do the same god damn shit. Wait 10 pages later and then repeat it as though it is some new revelation while ignoring the fact that your statements have already been shown to be utterly false. You are the worst poster here, bar none. PERIOD.

I have spent years on this board and have placed ONE person on my ignore list because his posts were so damn asinine. I think that you have managed to exceed him because you not only spray bullshit but you try and wrap it in smug horse manure. I tire of you repeating yourself ad nasium like you have ever managed to make a coherent point. You are now the second person in four years that is going on my ignore list. I just can’t stand trying to debate someone that has a wall several feet thick in his head. I am done with you and can’t believe that you have reduced me to the point that I just can’t avoid calling you a fucking idiot. I don’t even know why you come to a debate board. Debating is NOT about bleating the same bullshit over and over again. It is not presenting evidence that you are wrong and then demanding that it states you are right. That is fucking insane as you like to call others.

Goodbye forever sigon – you are a fucking infuriating.

 

[Saigon]

FA-Q2

Despite all of your protestations. I still consider a comparison between the US and Germany to be entirely valid.

The two countries are both very large, western, industrialised nations with massive amounts of immigration. Both have gangs, both have poverty.

I imagine you would say the same, were we discussing another topic.

It's been an interesting discussion, anyway.

 

[Spoonman]

except that the more guns we have out there the less violence we seem to be having. go figure

Did you mean that because the number of households owning weapons has dropped from 50% to 35%, the violence has dropped?

the number housholds owning guns hasn't dropped. it has increased. stop reading your liberal spin

 

[Spoonman]

except that the more guns we have out there the less violence we seem to be having. go figure

Did you mean that because the number of households owning weapons has dropped from 50% to 35%, the violence has dropped?

Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

be sure to take notice of the growth by party. democrats have outpaced republicans in new gun purchases. that is why pushing gun control measures and violating constitutional rights is going to sink the democrats. democrats are becoming very pro gun as well.

this data reflects up to 2011. in 2012 there were 20,000,000 new requests for pistol permits. that is new people, not people who already have guns buying more guns. gun ownership is on the rise. and its rising fast

 

[Saigon]

Spoonman -

Can you explained why you rejected the research of three independent polls, but are now presenting "self-reported" gun ownership as being reliable?

the number housholds owning guns hasn't dropped. it has increased. stop reading your liberal spin

Three polls have found that it has - and not one shred of evidence has been presented that says otherwise. It is an undisputed fact, in other words.

 

[The Rabbi]

Spoonman -

Can you explained why you rejected the research of three independent polls, but are now presenting "self-reported" gun ownership as being reliable?

the number housholds owning guns hasn't dropped. it has increased. stop reading your liberal spin

Three polls have found that it has - and not one shred of evidence has been presented that says otherwise. It is an undisputed fact, in other words.

Can you explain why the Gallup Poll you cited is more reliable than the one he cited? You keep repeating that it is an undisputed fact, despite being disputed. Are you sane?

 

[Saigon]

Rabbi -

I haven't seen any other polls posted. Why Gallup would release two polls with contradictory results I'm not sure, but let's take a look at it.

 

[M14 Shooter]

My original claim:

What IS insane is that you not only accept but celebrate a homicide rate TEN TIMES that of similiar countries.

Gun-related homicide rates:

Germany 1.24

USA 10.3

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shall I go on?

That’s it sigon. I am fucking tired of you repeating the same bullshit over and over again.

Iif you stop feeding the troll, it will go away.
Saigon clearly has no desire to have an honest, informed discussion of the issue.

 

[FA_Q2]

My original claim:



Gun-related homicide rates:

Germany 1.24

USA 10.3

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shall I go on?

That’s it sigon. I am fucking tired of you repeating the same bullshit over and over again.

Iif you stop feeding the troll, it will go away.
Saigon clearly has no desire to have an honest, informed discussion of the issue.

True. In the beginning it did not seem that way though. He was actually trying to bring up points but I did not realize that they were the same trash that had already been shown as either false or that actually did not support his supposition. Repeatedly obliterating those points and then having him ignore the refutation only for him to repeat the same drivel 5-10 pages later has shown me the troll that he is. Now that I have crossed that bridge:

This message is hidden because Saigon is on your ignore list.

Now I no longer bother with that bullshit, nor will I have to any time in the future. I am sure that he is patting himself on his back because of some smug thought that the asinine position of his has been vindicated. Oh well, I have not the patience to deal with that bullshit anymore.

 

[Saigon]

And yet no one yet has been able to come up with any solid, reasonable reason as to why the US can not be compared with Germany.

Enlightening.

 

[The Rabbi]

And yet no one yet has been able to come up with any solid, reasonable reason as to why the US can not be compared with Germany.

Enlightening.

Must...Not...Feed...Troll......

 

[legaleagle_45]

And yet no one yet has been able to come up with any solid, reasonable reason as to why the US can not be compared with Germany.

It is quite simple really. The US is the most ethnically, racially, linguistically, religiously and culturally diverse nation in the history of the universe. This is both a blessing and a curse as criminal gangs oft times are established upon those differences, creating Italian gangs, Irish gangs, Russian gangs, Columbian gangs, Puerto Rican gangs, black gangs, latino gangs, Asian gangs, etc etc. In urban America the FBI reports that 85% of violent crime is associated with gang activity and a substantial number of homicides are the result of inter-gang warfare.

Germany has 11 recognized criminal gangs... mostly motorcycle gangs which are affiliated with US motorcycle gangs such as the Outlaws Motorcycle Club, Gypsy Joker Motorcycle Club, Hells Angels and the Warlocks Motorcycle Club. They also have a few neo nazi gangs, such as the Hammerskins (which began and still exists in the USA)

Category:Gangs in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chicago alone has over 100 recognized criminal gangs.... split into 2 distinct allances (Folk Nation and People Nation) creating warring factions and gang inspired violence and homicides

Street gangs in Chicago, Illinois | StreetGangs.Com

It is not just the presence of a criminal gang that makes the US unique. It is the sheer numbers of different gangs that makes the US an outlier. The greater the number of gangs the greater probability of gang warfare and the associated violence.

Anything else you wish to know?

 

[Spoonman]

Spoonman -

Can you explained why you rejected the research of three independent polls, but are now presenting "self-reported" gun ownership as being reliable?

the number housholds owning guns hasn't dropped. it has increased. stop reading your liberal spin

Three polls have found that it has - and not one shred of evidence has been presented that says otherwise. It is an undisputed fact, in other words.

for one, in todays world with the pressure on gun ownership, i'm sure these numbers are probably understated. many gun owners would answer no, that they have no guns at home. if i take a sampling of people i know, i would say easily 45% own a gun, or someone in their family does. if i just took the little neighborhood i live in. 8 households. 7 have a gun, one doesn't. If i take a look at my imediate department at work. 6 people. 3 have a gun 3 don't. one who doesn't is strongly considering it. the same holds relatively true no matter what cross section of people i take. I know more and more people who are getting guns. I know of no one, who has given up theirs.

 

[Spoonman]

And yet no one yet has been able to come up with any solid, reasonable reason as to why the US can not be compared with Germany.

Enlightening.

germany does not border mexico, germany did not import slaves, free them and create ghettos and inner cities to house them. Germany has a national language, German. yes, that makes a difference. Germany will deport your ass if you are illegal.

 

[The Rabbi]

And yet no one yet has been able to come up with any solid, reasonable reason as to why the US can not be compared with Germany.

Enlightening.

germany does not border mexico, germany did not import slaves, free them and create ghettos and inner cities to house them. Germany has a national language, German. yes, that makes a difference. Germany will deport your ass if you are illegal.

All of this has been pointed out to this miscreant numerous and repeated times. Often in simple easy to understand terms. Yet he pivots back to it over and over. This is what makes him a troll.

 

[Saigon]

And yet no one yet has been able to come up with any solid, reasonable reason as to why the US can not be compared with Germany.

Enlightening.

germany does not border mexico, germany did not import slaves, free them and create ghettos and inner cities to house them. Germany has a national language, German. yes, that makes a difference. Germany will deport your ass if you are illegal.

So Germany has one tenth of the murders that the US does because it has a national language. Got it.

I was really looking for rational arguments that you actually believe yourself. Unofrtunately, they do not seem to exist.

 

[Saigon]

for one, in todays world with the pressure on gun ownership, i'm sure these numbers are probably understated. many gun owners would answer no, that they have no guns at home. if i take a sampling of people i know, i would say easily 45% own a gun, or someone in their family does. if i just took the little neighborhood i live in. 8 households. 7 have a gun, one doesn't. If i take a look at my imediate department at work. 6 people. 3 have a gun 3 don't. one who doesn't is strongly considering it. the same holds relatively true no matter what cross section of people i take. I know more and more people who are getting guns. I know of no one, who has given up theirs.

This has been mentioned many times on this thread, but makes very little logical sense.

The polling company asked people if they were willing to take part in a survey on firearms. People were free to say no.

The ideathat literally thousands of people would say 'yes' and then lie is not an argument I find convincing.

 

[Saigon]

And yet no one yet has been able to come up with any solid, reasonable reason as to why the US can not be compared with Germany.

It is quite simple really. The US is the most ethnically, racially, linguistically, religiously and culturally diverse nation in the history of the universe. This is both a blessing and a curse as criminal gangs oft times are established upon those differences, creating Italian gangs, Irish gangs, Russian gangs, Columbian gangs, Puerto Rican gangs, black gangs, latino gangs, Asian gangs, etc etc. In urban America the FBI reports that 85% of violent crime is associated with gang activity and a substantial number of homicides are the result of inter-gang warfare.

Germany has 11 recognized criminal gangs... mostly motorcycle gangs which are affiliated with US motorcycle gangs such as the Outlaws Motorcycle Club, Gypsy Joker Motorcycle Club, Hells Angels and the Warlocks Motorcycle Club. They also have a few neo nazi gangs, such as the Hammerskins (which began and still exists in the USA)

I absolutely agree that Germany has less gangs than the US does - although Germany does have skinheads, Neo-Nazis and has had terror cells like Baader-Meinhoff.

I absolutely agree that gangs breed violence - but that alone is something the US should be studying. WHY does the US havemore gangs than Germany?

Also, gangs both cause gun violence, and are empowered by it. One reason Germany has less gangs, is likely because those gangs are not able to arm themselves. This they cannot control turf, terrorise people or commit crimes.

In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs.

Rabbi - Please stop your incessant attempts to close the discussion down.